Is Basque an Indo-European language or not?

Well, I think I have presented enough arguments already, but to dismiss the discussion as you do because you ain't got any is counter-wise...
To me, you're just a troll who does not understand anything about linguistics, History and so on, so you're only defense mechanism is trying to break the luminous ideas of the others.
People like you do not make advance the search, but help humanity devolving.
Keep on arguing with you would be sterile.
So stay with your closed-mind, farewell !
 
Well, I think I have presented enough arguments already, but to dismiss the discussion as you do because you ain't got any is counter-wise...
To me, you're just a troll who does not understand anything about linguistics, History and so on, so you're only defense mechanism is trying to break the luminous ideas of the others.
People like you do not make advance the search, but help humanity devolving.
Keep on arguing with you would be sterile.
So stay with your closed-mind, farewell !

You would be mistaken saying that people who disagree with you do not "understand anything about linguistics, history and so on" and that their "only defense mechanism is trying to break the luminous ideas of others". Your argument is being challenged and it is clear you do not like that.

But anyways, here are some papers you can read through that directly disagree and present valid arguments against Forni and his pet theory.


 
can't understand

Maybe you're not able to read, but I never said Basque was IE, only that proto-Basque and proto-IE were obviously related.
I don't need to read those papers, as my level of comprehension is superior than those authors.
Here are few examples for beginners, but after this do not ask me again, because none of you have the level of understanding which is required (not even the basis) :
1 - THE VERB "TO BE"
Euskara - Izan
Englisc - weosan, wesan, wosa, ˈwe.sɑn, ˈwe.zɑn
Old High German - Wesan (yes Englisc is older, everything you were told is a lie)
2 - THE VERB "TO LIVE"
Euskara - Bizi
Croatian - Biti
3 - "YOU ARE"
Euskara - Zu zara
English - Thou are
4 - "A MAN"
Euskara - Gizonsembea
Old Lituanian - Žmuõ
Old Norse - Gumi
Norwegian - Gume
Old Saxon/Old high German - Gumo
Gothic/Englisc - Guma
5 - "A DEER"
Euskara - Oreinia
Ols Norse - Hreinn
6 - "THE POWER"
Euskara - Erreginia
Old Norse - Ragna
Latin - Regina
6 - "THE THUNDER"
Euskara - Trumoia
Englisc - ðunor
Old Norse - Thôrr
7 - "GOD" (BY NAME)
Euskara - Ortzi
Old Norse - ὀs, āss
8 - "GOD" (DESIGNATION)
Euskara - JaunGoikoa
Old Norse - Guð, kuþ, goð, ˈɡoð
9 - "THE WHEEL"
Euskara -GurPilia
Goidelic - Cuibhle
Old Norse - Hvel
10 - "TO SEE"
Euskara - Ikusmiratu/Ikusi
Old Norse - Sy~a
Englisc - SieƟ
11 - "THE EAGLE"
Euskara - Arranioa
Old Norse - Ari
12 - "AND"
Euskara - Eta
Old Norse - eða
13 - "ALL"
Euskara - Osoa/Oroa
Old Norse - ǫll
14 - "THE AUROCH"
Euskara - Uroa
Old Norse/German - Ur
15 - "THE EAR"
Euskara - Belarria
Old Norse - ɛira/eyra
16 - NEGATION
Euskara - Ezezkeria/ezerketa
Old Norse - Eigi, ekki, ei
17 - "THE EYE"
Euskara - Begirra/leihioa
Old Norse - auẋa
18 - "THE BEAN"
Euskara - babarruna
Old Norse - baun
Old Prussian - babo
19 - "THE ICE"
Euskara - Izotza
Old Norse - Iz

I don't believe in such thing as isolates.
 
Maybe you're not able to read, but I never said Basque was IE, only that proto-Basque and proto-IE were obviously related.
I don't need to read those papers, as my level of comprehension is superior than those authors.

Nice an ad hominem, the title of your thread is literally questioning if Basque is IE or not. You don’t need to read those papers because your comprehension is superior? Dunning-Kruger effect much?


Here are few examples for beginners, but after this do not ask me again, because none of you have the level of understanding which is required (not even the basis) :


I don't believe in such thing as isolates.

Can you demonstrate the actual etymologies and for lack of a better term phylogeny of each of these words you’ve listed?

The fact that you don’t believe in isolates suggests that your theory entirely depends on that. That’s too bad for your theory then.
 
Basque, Iberian and Tartessian are NOT Indo-European languages, dozens of Spanish linguists have demonstrated this since linguistic studies began. I could give you hundreds of references in this regard. The studies on the relationship between Iberian and Basque continue to progress continuously and soon it will be the most accepted theory by the best Spanish Iberianists.
 
Regarding the linguistic debate and the uniparental markers related to a certain language, the only way to demonstrate which language was spoken by a certain people or culture is to demonstrate an evident genetic continuity. And so far we can only do that in Spain.

As everyone should know, Iberian was spoken in Roman times from Andalusia, the Spanish and French Mediterranean coast to Herault, the Pyrenees and the Ebro valley. The first case of Df27-Z195 has been documented in Narbonne and the genetic continuity is evident. Can the fanatic Kurganists demonstrate such an obvious genetic continuity between any steppe culture and the BB culture? NO and they will never be able to do it because R1b-P312/DF27 are absolutely western markers.

Can someone give me a convincing explanation as to why Df27 had to change its language if there were no invasions or conquests. The Bronze Age cultures of the Spanish Mediterranean coast including the Argar and Bronze Valencian cultures are heirs of the BB culture, and the historical Iron Age peoples share uniparental markers with these cultures. For us the debate is closed unless someone can prove otherwise. The BB culture spoke an Ibero/Basque language.
 
In any case, the key to understanding the linguistic debate is not the Basques/Aquitanians, but the Iberians - this is just one example of the genetic continuity in Iberia between the BB culture and the Iron Age.HapY-Df27-Z195

GBVPK-Grotte Basse de la Vigne Perdue, Narbona (2.380 BC), I1312d, Can Roqueta, Barcelona (1.782 BC), I3397Lloma de Betxi, Valencia (1.741 BC), I4563, Galls Carboners, Tarragona (1.600 BC), I8206.Ampurias, Gerona, Iberian Culture-Indiketes (200 BC)
 
Any kurganist fanatic still dreams of demonstrating that genetic continuity between the steppes, the BB culture, Unetice and the Iron Age Celts, to convince us that the steppe shepherds conquered mainland Europe, exterminated the male lineages of the European neolithic cultures, mingled with their women and imposed their culture (including their language). Nothing could be further from the truth, the Indo-European languages of Western Europe are a matter of the Iron Age and the Roman Empire. The rest are fairy tales
 
That is exact, Bell Beaker culture stemed from Spain.
Looking the map, it is plain obvious.
That is funny how the so called historians and ethnologists are so wrong (but is it intended?).
The fact that Lusitanian was (partly at least, and more than 50%) purely Iberian show that Latin originated near actual Portugal.
Indic languages are a mix of paleolithic atlantic languages and Dravidian, and the linguistics clearly prove it.
Guess which family is the closest to Dravidian in the whole world? Well that is Iberian.
Another thing about BB, and the Basque language ;
Gar - flame
Gari - wheat
Garagar - barley
Gargardo - beer (< garagar-ardo "wine of barley")

Now look at armenian and you'll see the great lie about IE (isn't armenian its most divergent branch?)
Bots - flame
Tsvoren - wheat
Gari - barley
Garejur - beer (<gari-jur "water of barley")

The funny part about it is that armenian people spread the lie that basque originate in their country.
Saddly there is no mount Ararat, only Aralar in Biscaye (a little more logical no for Noah to arrive on a coastal country?).
Everything they tell you is a BIG LIE.
 
Maybe you're not able to read, but I never said Basque was IE, only that proto-Basque and proto-IE were obviously related.
I don't need to read those papers, as my level of comprehension is superior than those authors.
Here are few examples for beginners, but after this do not ask me again, because none of you have the level of understanding which is required (not even the basis) :
1 - THE VERB "TO BE"
Euskara - Izan
Englisc - weosan, wesan, wosa, ˈwe.sɑn, ˈwe.zɑn
Old High German - Wesan (yes Englisc is older, everything you were told is a lie)
2 - THE VERB "TO LIVE"
Euskara - Bizi
Croatian - Biti
3 - "YOU ARE"
Euskara - Zu zara
English - Thou are
4 - "A MAN"
Euskara - Gizonsembea
Old Lituanian - Žmuõ
Old Norse - Gumi
Norwegian - Gume
Old Saxon/Old high German - Gumo
Gothic/Englisc - Guma
5 - "A DEER"
Euskara - Oreinia
Ols Norse - Hreinn
6 - "THE POWER"
Euskara - Erreginia
Old Norse - Ragna
Latin - Regina
6 - "THE THUNDER"
Euskara - Trumoia
Englisc - ðunor
Old Norse - Thôrr
7 - "GOD" (BY NAME)
Euskara - Ortzi
Old Norse - ὀs, āss
8 - "GOD" (DESIGNATION)
Euskara - JaunGoikoa
Old Norse - Guð, kuþ, goð, ˈɡoð
9 - "THE WHEEL"
Euskara -GurPilia
Goidelic - Cuibhle
Old Norse - Hvel
10 - "TO SEE"
Euskara - Ikusmiratu/Ikusi
Old Norse - Sy~a
Englisc - SieƟ
11 - "THE EAGLE"
Euskara - Arranioa
Old Norse - Ari
12 - "AND"
Euskara - Eta
Old Norse - eða
13 - "ALL"
Euskara - Osoa/Oroa
Old Norse - ǫll
14 - "THE AUROCH"
Euskara - Uroa
Old Norse/German - Ur
15 - "THE EAR"
Euskara - Belarria
Old Norse - ɛira/eyra
16 - NEGATION
Euskara - Ezezkeria/ezerketa
Old Norse - Eigi, ekki, ei
17 - "THE EYE"
Euskara - Begirra/leihioa
Old Norse - auẋa
18 - "THE BEAN"
Euskara - babarruna
Old Norse - baun
Old Prussian - babo
19 - "THE ICE"
Euskara - Izotza
Old Norse - Iz

I don't believe in such thing as isolates.


this heaping or piling of phonetically heterogenous an false "cognates" or "affiliated words" will never prove anything; for someones I even don't see any possible link - the rare possibilities may be just hazard. Let's be serious: the lexicon proximity is inexistant, today and in "pre-proto-past" all the way.
 
Dumb

You don't see the link between "izan" and "wizan"? When English people say "he is" HAHAHA I can not do anything for you. Hazard? You mean coincidence? By coincidence, are you HUMAN?
 
Any kurganist fanatic still dreams of demonstrating that genetic continuity between the steppes, the BB culture, Unetice and the Iron Age Celts, to convince us that the steppe shepherds conquered mainland Europe, exterminated the male lineages of the European neolithic cultures, mingled with their women and imposed their culture (including their language). Nothing could be further from the truth, the Indo-European languages of Western Europe are a matter of the Iron Age and the Roman Empire. The rest are fairy tales

You are so upset that you cannot explain clearly your point of view. Are you telling us IE tongues waited IA to reach western Europe?
The BB phenomenon is very curious and we cannot be sure its first promotors were IE's, here I can agree with you, without any certainty. But the massive male-biased Steppic genetic introgression into Europe is proved and preceeded IA by large.
I don't buy the Davdisky 's theory linking BB's and CWC at the origins, and t the same time, we are not sure todate that Y-R1b-DF27 was associated to first BB. What I'm almost sure is that DF27 as other P312 and close upstream R1b came from at least East-Central (north- or peri-Carpathian?) Europe if not directly from Steppes - see the L11 distribution in Eurpe. And for language, the link between northern (acculturated?) R1b BB's and some kind of proto-Ligurian-Celtic-Italic-... IEan languages seems the most evident with our todate knowledge.
In fact I see more witches than fairies in this thread.
 
Hey Guy-ke, take a look at those "coincidences" :

Euskara : Burbuillia
English : Bubble
French : Bulle

Euskara : Purpura
German : Purpur
English : Purple

Euskara : Jatorria
Magan : Hathor
Hebero :Torah

Karl Marx wanted to exterminate Basque people, is that a coincidence ?
 
You don't see the link between "izan" and "wizan"? When English people say "he is" HAHAHA I can not do anything for you. Hazard? You mean coincidence? By coincidence, are you HUMAN?

the question is that in more than an IEan today language, the verb 'to be' forms appear as extracted from diverse roots, whatever the cause.
in Germanic derived languages we cannot associate forms like be/been to others like was/were/would or sein(zijn)< *sîn(?) (mayby the ones in is/ist could be linked to sein? very uncertain to me with my present knowledge)
in breton: boud/bezañ + other modes and times based upon bez- < bed- >< zo=so (welsh sy(dd)) >< on, out, eo, omp, oc'h, int (some of these indicative present forms are even used for the formation of complexes prepositons+personal pronouns!)
in Romance: French suis/sommes/sont + serai... and es/est + étais... >< fus/fut/fumes...

So, when an english speaker says is, he doesn't use a derived form of *wizan which gave, I guess, forms like was, were ASO, not is.
 
Hey Guy-ke, take a look at those "coincidences" :

Euskara : Burbuillia
English : Bubble
French : Bulle

Euskara : Purpura
German : Purpur
English : Purple

Euskara : Jatorria
Magan : Hathor
Hebero :Torah

Karl Marx wanted to exterminate Basque people, is that a coincidence ?


May I name it a 'berezina' or a 'waterloo' or a 'trafalgar' (for Frenchies)??? So sad... Please, learn methodology.
 
You have a lot of patience, Moesan. I've given up discussing linguistics with most people on this site because they haven't even taken a standard course on it.
 
You have a lot of patience, Moesan. I've given up discussing linguistics with most people on this site because they haven't even taken a standard course on it.

True. Good advice. I give up for this thread.
 
You're really funny...
Breton "bezan" is the very SAME word as old english "wesan"... Seriously, what are you doing on this forum if you can't see the obvious? You're wasting my time, and you keep on destroying the research.
English "be" obviously come from the same root... ("to" is only a particle)
Whether it is linked to Basque "bizi" or "izan" does not change the fact that my guess is good, and you are much confused as ever.
French "es/est" and "suis" are just auxilliary variations, parrallel to "ser" and "estar" in spanish, the only difference is that french have simplified in one verb.
Basque have "egon" for "estar", linked to "egin" (to do), something which shows its unfeniable superiority to IE. Anyway, what's your point?
You have a zero level in linguistics, that is obvious, and your analysises of paleo-history and haplogroups are confused and laughable.
 
You don't see the link between "izan" and "wizan"? When English people say "he is" HAHAHA I can not do anything for you. Hazard? You mean coincidence? By coincidence, are you HUMAN?

Your arrogance truly blinds you doesn’t it?

You are drawing conclusions and making assumptions for your pet theory with absolute denial and ignorance of etymology and linguistic science.
 
You are so upset that you cannot explain clearly your point of view. Are you telling us IE tongues waited IA to reach western Europe?
The BB phenomenon is very curious and we cannot be sure its first promotors were IE's, here I can agree with you, without any certainty. But the massive male-biased Steppic genetic introgression into Europe is proved and preceeded IA by large.
I don't buy the Davdisky 's theory linking BB's and CWC at the origins, and t the same time, we are not sure todate that Y-R1b-DF27 was associated to first BB. What I'm almost sure is that DF27 as other P312 and close upstream R1b came from at least East-Central (north- or peri-Carpathian?) Europe if not directly from Steppes - see the L11 distribution in Eurpe. And for language, the link between northern (acculturated?) R1b BB's and some kind of proto-Ligurian-Celtic-Italic-... IEan languages seems the most evident with our todate knowledge.
In fact I see more witches than fairies in this thread.

Upset? why would I be upset?

My point of view is very clear, the genetic continuity of R1b-P312/Df27 from the beginning of the BB culture to the Iron Age peoples in Iberia and southern France is enough proof to think that the BB culture did not speak an Indo-European language.

And I am also saying that the Indo-European languages (Celtic and Latin) entered Iberia in the Iron Age. Do you have any evidence that makes you think that they entered in the Chalcolithic or Bronze Age? If you have it, tell us what it is and we will be able to value it.

Massive male-biased Steppic genetic introgression into Europe is proved? REALLY?- The first R1b-M269 in Europe are in Bulgaria (Smyadovo-4.500 BC), and Spain (ATP3-Atapuerca-3.400 BC). Then you have 3 Neolithic farmers R1b-M269 in Switzerland buried in dolmens (2.730-2.620 BC), two of which have no autosomal steppe signal. You have VK531 in Norway R1b-P297 (2,400 BC) with no trace of steppe ancestry - for you this is a massive invasion of the steppes.... Let's imagine that you are right and that the origin of P312/Df27 is in the steppes, do you think that those lonely explorers buried in dolmens were able to change the language of western neolithic cultures?

We are not sure todate that Y-R1b-DF27 was associated to first BB- YES WE ARE

EHU002 (2.434 BC)-El Hundido-HapY-R1b-P312-Df 27-Mit-K1a4/a1-Positive-Marker-A12032

Position (hg19)-22901108- Position (hg38)-20739222-R-S24844/A12032-Ancestral Allele-C>T
R1bP312>ZZ11_1>DF27>ZZ12>Z2559>FGC4920>DF83>Z2563>Z2567>CTS9545>CTS6519>FGC67201>Y15926>A11786>A12020/Y23959-Marker [S24844] currently considered coincident with marker [A12020], using that phylogenetic tree.

*GBVPK (2.380 AC)- Grotte Basse de la Vigne Perdue-HapY-R1b1a/1b1a/1a2a/1-Z195-

These are the first two Df27 found in Europe. The first one buried in the entrance of a dolmen with Ciempozuelos style ceramics, and the second one buried in a cave with Pyrenean style ceramics (decorative motifs identical to Ciempozuelos). Have you found Df27 in Eastern Europe or the steppes?

Are you sure that DF27 as other P312 and close upstream R1b came from at least East-Central (north- or peri-Carpathian?) Europe if not directly from Steppes-To say that you need proof and to date the Harvardians who have been desperately searching for L51/L151/P310/P312 in the steppes for five years have not yet found it. We will have to wait for them to do so to accept the Kurgan theory as formulated by Haak, Reich and colleagues. For the time being, they are only fairy tales.


You see witches and I only see people who only have steppes in their brains as in so many other internet forums.
 

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