Celtic Y-Haplogroups

[Lehwos]

I have compiled here a list of Celtic tribes and the Y-haplogroups to which I assume they belonged. I have based this on modern Y-Haplogroup maps and my own knowledge of European history. Know that this is not set in stone or a decisive statement on my part, and I am entirely willing to edit the list should new data, ideas, or overlooked tribes be presented to me. Note also that these tribes are not themselves set in stone, but rather a general reference from my own predictions.

Use it as you please, as it is here for those who might be curious of such matters, and I have done a decent bit of research before hand. Remember to take it all with a grain of salt, however, as this is mostly not based upon grave samples, which I'd be more than happy to look into soon should updating be necessary.


Keltoi

Aedui (Western Alpine Foothills) - R1b (S28, L21) / G2a / T
*E and J not accounted for because they are likely from the Roman conquest

Arverni (Central Gaul) - R1b (S28, DF27) / G2a
*E and J not accounted for just as with the Aedui

Belgae (Seine to Rhine) - R1b (S28, L21, S21)
*S21 is iffy because it is largely from Franks, but it was likely present
*I1 not accounted for because it likely comes from Franks

Boii (Bohemia) - R1b (S28, S21) / R1a-M458 / I2a / I1?
*Hard to classify because of Germanic and Slavic migrations
*I1 is only a plausibility, but the others are likely

Cisalpine Gauls (Po Valley) - R1b-S28
*Very little E or J in presumably less Romanized parts of the Po Valley (Western Romagna)

Helvetii (Western Alps) - R1b (S28, S21) / G2a / E-V13
*May well be located at the core of Celtic spread and have S28 almost as dense as Cisalpine Gauls
*S21 was likely weaker than now, but still present given its unusual strength far from the Rhine

Norici (Styria) - R1b (S21, S28) / I2a / R1a-M458 / I1 / G2a
*I1 is likely present because of its weaker presence south matches Celtic spread
*S21 is most often seen as Germanic, but likely present judging by its particular strength in Upper Austria

Transalpine Gauls (Southern Gallic Coast) - R1b-S28
*Other haplogroups are only as strong as they are in Italy, so they likely come from Roman conquest.


Brythons

Armoricans (Britanny) - R1b (L21, DF27, S28)
*Meeting point of Brythonic, Iberian, and Gallic migrations, not much changed save for Norse settlers

Caledonians (Northern Britannia) - R1b-L21 / I2b
*Strongest area of I2b beyond central Germany

Hibernians (Ireland) - R1b-L21 / I2a
*I2a weak but still present as Connacht shows

Iceni and Regnenses (Eastern and Southern Britannia) - R1b (L21, S28) / I2b
*S28 is likely as Caesar and others note that coastal tribes were of Belgic origins. It is also particularly strong in the east today.

Silures (Southwestern Britannia) - R1b-L21
*Likely the “purest” of the Brythons, with little I2 or S28


Others

Celtiberians (North and Central Iberia) - R1b-DF27 / E-V13
*Likely descendants of Iberians and not Gauls - very little R1b that is not DF2

Scordisci (Central Balkans) - R1b (S21, Z2103) / I1 / I2a
*Most likely a group of Celts ruling over Illyrian natives, so they are very difficult

Here is a detailed map for your reference: http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesEurope/Barbarian_Map52BC_max.htm

 

[Angela]

^^This is all complete and utter nonsense, to which no one should pay any attention whatsoever, as there is no way anyone could know their y lines at this point.

 

[Sile]

I have compiled here a list of Celtic tribes and the Y-haplogroups to which I assume they belonged. I have based this on modern Y-Haplogroup maps and my own knowledge of European history. Know that this is not set in stone or a decisive statement on my part, and I am entirely willing to edit the list should new data, ideas, or overlooked tribes be presented to me. Note also that these tribes are not themselves set in stone, but rather a general reference from my own predictions.
Use it as you please, as it is here for those who might be curious of such matters, and I have done a decent bit of research before hand. Remember to take it all with a grain of salt, however, as this is mostly not based upon grave samples, which I'd be more than happy to look into soon should updating be necessary.

Keltoi
Aedui (Western Alpine Foothills) - R1b (S28, L21) / G2a / T
*E and J not accounted for because they are likely from the Roman conquest
Arverni (Central Gaul) - R1b (S28, DF27) / G2a
*E and J not accounted for just as with the Aedui
Belgae (Seine to Rhine) - R1b (S28, L21, S21)
*S21 is iffy because it is largely from Franks, but it was likely present
*I1 not accounted for because it likely comes from Franks
Boii (Bohemia) - R1b (S28, S21) / R1a-M458 / I2a / I1?
*Hard to classify because of Germanic and Slavic migrations
*I1 is only a plausibility, but the others are likely
Cisalpine Gauls (Po Valley) - R1b-S28
*Very little E or J in presumably less Romanized parts of the Po Valley (Western Romagna)
Helvetii (Western Alps) - R1b (S28, S21) / G2a / E-V13
*May well be located at the core of Celtic spread and have S28 almost as dense as Cisalpine Gauls
*S21 was likely weaker than now, but still present given its unusual strength far from the Rhine
Norici (Styria) - R1b (S21, S28) / I2a / R1a-M458 / I1 / G2a
*I1 is likely present because of its weaker presence south matches Celtic spread
*S21 is most often seen as Germanic, but likely present judging by its particular strength in Upper Austria
Transalpine Gauls (Southern Gallic Coast) - R1b-S28
*Other haplogroups are only as strong as they are in Italy, so they likely come from Roman conquest.
Brythons
Armoricans (Britanny) - R1b (L21, DF27, S28)
*Meeting point of Brythonic, Iberian, and Gallic migrations, not much changed save for Norse settlers
Caledonians (Northern Britannia) - R1b-L21 / I2b
*Strongest area of I2b beyond central Germany
Hibernians (Ireland) - R1b-L21 / I2a
*I2a weak but still present as Connacht shows
Iceni and Regnenses (Eastern and Southern Britannia) - R1b (L21, S28) / I2b
*S28 is likely as Caesar and others note that coastal tribes were of Belgic origins. It is also particularly strong in the east today.
Silures (Southwestern Britannia) - R1b-L21
*Likely the “purest” of the Brythons, with little I2 or S28
Others
Celtiberians (North and Central Iberia) - R1b-DF27 / E-V13
*Likely descendants of Iberians and not Gauls - very little R1b that is not DF2
Scordisci (Central Balkans) - R1b (S21, Z2103) / I1 / I2a
*Most likely a group of Celts ruling over Illyrian natives, so they are very difficult
Here is a detailed map for your reference: http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesEurope/Barbarian_Map52BC_max.htm

thanks
good map with some errors
as per stabo.........ambisontes, abidravi, catubrini, carni and latovici are all illyrian tribes that became celtinized in the early iron-age.
.
Scordisci are a thracian tribe that became celtinized.
.
missing is the veleti on the upper vistula area ( some people misprint Veleti as Venedi )

 

[Lehwos]

thanks
good map with some errors
as per stabo.........ambisontes, abidravi, catubrini, carni and latovici are all illyrian tribes that became celtinized in the early iron-age.
.
Scordisci are a thracian tribe that became celtinized.
.
missing is the veleti on the upper vistula area ( some people misprint Veleti as Venedi )

Yes, I am aware that the population was most likely Illyrian, but I was trying more to refer to what I took to be a ruling Celtic class. If there was no such thing, I'll put I2 first.

I chose not the include the Veleti, because I've always taken them to be Slavic, as have most others when referring to them. If they are counted as Germanicized by some ancient source, I'd be happy to look into it.

 

[Lehwos]

^^This is all complete and utter nonsense, to which no one should pay any attention whatsoever, as there is no way anyone could know their y lines at this point.

Actually, yes, we can know with some security as to which haplogroups they belonged. Not with precise accuracy, of course, but we can have some good ideas. Take, for instance, the fact that R1a is 5% by the Rhone river, where the Burgundians settled. R1b-S21 is double that, and I1 is equivalent. Their influence all almost perfectly within the area of Germanic settlement during that period. Thus we can conclude that these three belonged to the East Germanic people who settled there in roughly the order of their prominence, giving R1a a little bit of bias because of how far away the Rhone is from the denser areas of it.

We can do similar things with the parts of Gaul where the Franks settled, and the influence of their most prominent haplogroups matches up to our historical knowledge quite well.

I don't know why you're so hostile to what I've openly said is primarily informed conjecture, without offering informative criticism of any kind. Rather, instead of asking why I said what I did, you think it best to call it nonsense.

 

[Lehwos]

thanks
good map with some errors
as per stabo.........ambisontes, abidravi, catubrini, carni and latovici are all illyrian tribes that became celtinized in the early iron-age.
.
Scordisci are a thracian tribe that became celtinized.
.
missing is the veleti on the upper vistula area ( some people misprint Veleti as Venedi )

Oh sorry, I'd misread what you've said. Yes, the map may have some errors, but I can't say too much of them, as it is not my own.

 

[Sile]

Yes, I am aware that the population was most likely Illyrian, but I was trying more to refer to what I took to be a ruling Celtic class. If there was no such thing, I'll put I2 first.
I chose not the include the Veleti, because I've always taken them to be Slavic, as have most others when referring to them. If they are counted as Germanicized by some ancient source, I'd be happy to look into it.

ok
BTW.....the Euganei are the indigenous people of the Veneto and the Veneti arrived circa 1150BC to absorb the euganei and their 34 towns over time into Veneti society
.
Yes , the Veleti are a slavic tribe............they seem to be linked with some form of "early" bastanae ( germanics but basterzied by others ) people

 

[Lehwos]

ok
BTW.....the Euganei are the indigenous people of the Veneto and the Veneti arrived circa 1150BC to absorb the euganei and their 34 towns over time into Veneti society
.
Yes , the Veleti are a slavic tribe............they seem to be linked with some form of "early" bastanae ( germanics but basterzied by others ) people

I think you might be mixing up the Slavic Veneti of the Dnieper and Vistula and the Celto-Illyric Veneti of modern day Venetia.

Given how the Veneti of Italia were considered culturally Celtic and given how weak the Illyrian-associated haplogroups are in Venetia, I might consider adding them, but I'm not very sure for now.

 

[Sile]

I think you might be mixing up the Slavic Veneti of the Dnieper and Vistula and the Celto-Illyric Veneti of modern day Venetia.
Given how the Veneti of Italia were considered culturally Celtic and given how weak the Illyrian-associated haplogroups are in Venetia, I might consider adding them, but I'm not very sure for now.

There are no slavic veneti..............there is west-baltic cairns culture people called Venedi who lived on the baltic sea , where partly absorbed into gothic society with the remainder eventually being called the warmians, who are old-prussian people
they are alos associated with flat-bed grave culture.
.
.
The Venethi of Jordanes is a fabricated name and his misspelling of Veleti ( Velethi) who lived with the Alans and Schlaveni people.
.
.
You also have the brittany Veneti of France .........no association with any other Veneti, even though a scholar in italy links them with the Venedi ( the west-baltic people ).
.
Lastly you have the adriatic Veneti who arrived in italy and absorbed and merged with the numerous Euganei indigenous people of the area, circa 1150BC.....they came via north Anatolia and a linked with the Pala people ( palaic language , by another italian scholar )..........they are also genetically matched via a nat.geo study of 2005-2010.
They are also linked with the Histri people ( illyrian people of istria ) and celtinized illyrians of Noricum (east-austria) who came into their region over time .

 

[Lehwos]

There are no slavic veneti..............there is west-baltic cairns culture people called Venedi who lived on the baltic sea , where partly absorbed into gothic society with the remainder eventually being called the warmians, who are old-prussian people
they are alos associated with flat-bed grave culture.
.
.
The Venethi of Jordanes is a fabricated name and his misspelling of Veleti ( Velethi) who lived with the Alans and Schlaveni people.
.
.
You also have the brittany Veneti of France .........no association with any other Veneti, even though a scholar in italy links them with the Venedi ( the west-baltic people ).
.
Lastly you have the adriatic Veneti who arrived in italy and absorbed and merged with the numerous Euganei indigenous people of the area, circa 1150BC.....they came via north Anatolia and a linked with the Pala people ( palaic language , by another italian scholar )..........they are also genetically matched via a nat.geo study of 2005-2010.
They are also linked with the Histri people ( illyrian people of istria ) and celtinized illyrians of Noricum (east-austria) who came into their region over time .

No slavic Veneti? THE Slavs the Romans knew about, they called Veneti, and most agree that that is what they were, as it is highly unlikely that Finns or Balts inhabited nearly the whole of modern day Belarus at that time. Most sources I know of connect them to the Poles.

 

[Angela]

The Veneti of northeastern Italy have nothing to do with the Slavs, who didn't make their appearance until after the fall of the Empire. It's a case of similar names which have nothing to do with one another. There is almost no Slavic ancestry in Italians. One way of knowing that is that there is only the slightest trace of any yDna which might be labeled Slavic.

Interested members can use the search engine for threads discussing the issue.

 

[Lehwos]

The Veneti of northeastern Italy have nothing to do with the Slavs, who didn't make their appearance until after the fall of the Empire. It's a case of similar names which have nothing to do with one another. There is almost no Slavic ancestry in Italians. One way of knowing that is that there is only the slightest trace of any yDna which might be labeled Slavic.

Interested members can use the search engine for threads discussing the issue.

I know. That is what I was saying. There are two the Romans gave the name Veneti: those in Italy and those by the Baltic Sea.

I'd advise doing some searching yourself if you thought it otherwise. Or check the map I linked.

 

[Lehwos]

Here are some Wikipedia links, if that helps for a rough idea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti

 

[Jovialis]

I know. That is what I was saying. There are two the Romans gave the name Veneti: those in Italy and those by the Baltic Sea.

I'd advise doing some searching yourself if you thought it otherwise. Or check the map I linked.

Obviously she knew what she was talking about since she said "Veneti of northeastern Italy have nothing to do with the Slavs"

Based on the other abomination of a thread you made, you're in no position to lecture anyone around here.

 

[Lehwos]

Obviously she knew what she was talking about since she said "Veneti of northeastern Italy have nothing to do with the Slavs"

Based on the other abomination of a thread you made, you're in no position to lecture anyone around here.

Then perhaps it was a misunderstanding. It seems she thought I was making a connection between the two when I was not, and perhaps I should have made that clearer.

As for my earlier little exploit, yes, it was foolish and it was made with little forethought and under the wrong presuppositions. I regret it entirely.

But please bear in mind that this was just meant to be a simple discussion about Celtic Y-Haplogroups. That's all. I tried to be as non-assertive as possible with the description as I could to avoid the trainwreck of the thread on the Megalithics. I'm just someone interested in this kind of thing and I've been humbled by my wrecklesness earlier.

And yet, when I post a simple thread about discussion, I find that this kind of unwanted interaction follows. Especially when literally the first reply is "this is total and utter nonsense," with little explanation why, and when I made it clear that this was all about editable informed conjecture.

All I wanted was a happy little thread about Celts because it interests me and as a sort of apology for earlier foolishness, but it seems that won't be to easy to upkeep.

I'll just try to keep things chill for now if that's possible, but I can only hope that this will be successful. Admittedly I'm not the best at doing that lmao.

 

[Sile]

No slavic Veneti? THE Slavs the Romans knew about, they called Veneti, and most agree that that is what they were, as it is highly unlikely that Finns or Balts inhabited nearly the whole of modern day Belarus at that time. Most sources I know of connect them to the Poles.

no...the veneti of tacitus are the venedi and he states spoke a germanic tongue......they lived on the baltic sea next to the nogat river....on the west of them on both sides of the vistula river where the goths/gottones.....to the east of them on the baltic sea where their 'cousins" the Aestii people.
.
the Veleti lived in the upper vistula river area and came to that area via modern Scklovia and before that from southern Belarus.........the Veleti where next to the alans and scklaveni in the upper vistula area and where very numerous after they travelled to modern mecklenburg

 

[Lehwos]

no...the veneti of tacitus are the venedi and he states spoke a germanic tongue......they lived on the baltic sea next to the nogat river....on the west of them on both sides of the vistula river where the goths/gottones.....to the east of them on the baltic sea where their 'cousins" the Aestii people.
.
the Veleti lived in the upper vistula river area and came to that area via modern Scklovia and before that from southern Belarus.........the Veleti where next to the alans and scklaveni in the upper vistula area and where very numerous after they travelled to modern mecklenburg

I am not aware of this Germanic Veneti tribe, and I still doubt that it exists, but I am no expert on this matter. All that I can find any reference of are the Vistula Veneti, the Adriatic Veneti, and the Gallic Veneti.

As well, I would advise not taking Tacitus' linguistic characterizations too seriously, for he compared the Aesti of the Baltic to the Britons linguistically. It seems that he works off of vague sound similarities travelers hear rather than thorough study, as they knew so little of peoples so far away.

 

[Sile]

I am not aware of this Germanic Veneti tribe, and I still doubt that it exists, but I am no expert on this matter. All that I can find any reference of are the Vistula Veneti, the Adriatic Veneti, and the Gallic Veneti.
As well, I would advise not taking Tacitus' linguistic characterizations too seriously, for he compared the Aesti of the Baltic to the Britons linguistically. It seems that he works off of vague sound similarities travelers hear rather than thorough study, as they knew so little of peoples so far away.

I agree with Tacitus.....I also state that Jordanes ( a goth ) is also very very dubious in his accounts especially since he took them from Cassidorous
.
The Veleti are and where the numerous tribe ........a slavic tribe that where the first and only peoples known as wends
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veleti
The saxons attacked them in the 12th century in what was known as the wendish crusades
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendish_Crusade

 

[hapiness15]

I have compiled here a list of Celtic tribes and the Y-haplogroups to which I assume they belonged. I have based this on modern Y-Haplogroup maps and my own knowledge of European history. Know that this is not set in stone or a decisive statement on my part, and I am entirely willing to edit the list should new data, ideas, or overlooked tribes be presented to me. Note also that these tribes are not themselves set in stone, but rather a general reference from my own predictions.

Use it as you please, as it is here for those who might be curious of such matters, and I have done a decent bit of research before hand. Remember to take it all with a grain of salt, however, as this is mostly not based upon grave samples, which I'd be more than happy to look into soon should updating be necessary.


Keltoi

Aedui (Western Alpine Foothills) - R1b (S28, L21) / G2a / T
*E and J not accounted for because they are likely from the Roman conquest

Arverni (Central Gaul) - R1b (S28, DF27) / G2a
*E and J not accounted for just as with the Aedui

Belgae (Seine to Rhine) - R1b (S28, L21, S21)
*S21 is iffy because it is largely from Franks, but it was likely present
*I1 not accounted for because it likely comes from Franks

Boii (Bohemia) - R1b (S28, S21) / R1a-M458 / I2a / I1?
*Hard to classify because of Germanic and Slavic migrations
*I1 is only a plausibility, but the others are likely

Cisalpine Gauls (Po Valley) - R1b-S28
*Very little E or J in presumably less Romanized parts of the Po Valley (Western Romagna)

Helvetii (Western Alps) - R1b (S28, S21) / G2a / E-V13
*May well be located at the core of Celtic spread and have S28 almost as dense as Cisalpine Gauls
*S21 was likely weaker than now, but still present given its unusual strength far from the Rhine

Norici (Styria) - R1b (S21, S28) / I2a / R1a-M458 / I1 / G2a
*I1 is likely present because of its weaker presence south matches Celtic spread
*S21 is most often seen as Germanic, but likely present judging by its particular strength in Upper Austria

Transalpine Gauls (Southern Gallic Coast) - R1b-S28
*Other haplogroups are only as strong as they are in Italy, so they likely come from Roman conquest.


Brythons

Armoricans (Britanny) - R1b (L21, DF27, S28)
*Meeting point of Brythonic, Iberian, and Gallic migrations, not much changed save for Norse settlers

Caledonians (Northern Britannia) - R1b-L21 / I2b
*Strongest area of I2b beyond central Germany

Hibernians (Ireland) - R1b-L21 / I2a
*I2a weak but still present as Connacht shows

Iceni and Regnenses (Eastern and Southern Britannia) - R1b (L21, S28) / I2b
*S28 is likely as Caesar and others note that coastal tribes were of Belgic origins. It is also particularly strong in the east today.

Silures (Southwestern Britannia) - R1b-L21
*Likely the “purest” of the Brythons, with little I2 or S28


Others

Celtiberians (North and Central Iberia) - R1b-DF27 / E-V13
*Likely descendants of Iberians and not Gauls - very little R1b that is not DF2

Scordisci (Central Balkans) - R1b (S21, Z2103) / I1 / I2a
*Most likely a group of Celts ruling over Illyrian natives, so they are very difficult

Here is a detailed map for your reference: http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesEurope/Barbarian_Map52BC_max.htm

hello , i was tested to Y , R-S8172 , what ancient celts tribes probably this haplo came from?