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Thread: Europe without Indo-European Invasion

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    Europe without Indo-European Invasion

    What do you think Europe and it's Inhabitants would look like, if the Indo-Europeans never took place there, and never influenced it culturely or genetically?

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    I think... Less interaction. => More cultural and genetic uniformity.

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    Less warfare, more focus on culture/trade. More diversity and less genetic uniformity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Messier 67 View Post
    Less warfare, more focus on culture/trade. More diversity and less genetic uniformity.
    Anyway, I do not know that really means much warfare and more diversity?

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    Most Europeans would just be a straight mix of early European farmer and western hunter gatherer.
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jairoken10 View Post
    What do you think Europe and it's Inhabitants would look like, if the Indo-Europeans never took place there, and never influenced it culturely or genetically?
    The word "invasion" makes it seem like it was a centralized effort by a coherent group of people, maybe they were but I don't think there is any evidence for that, a decentralized migration by many tribes is closer ot truth I think, so "invasions".

    They would basically be Sardinians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Most Europeans would just be a straight mix of early European farmer and western hunter gatherer.
    And indo-europeans ? Where would it be?

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    Maybe no horses in Europe?!
    No patriarcal societies and less wars maybe?!
    Why Did i mention war?! Because those people ( the I-E) were likely wary people....


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    Things would stay the same until one of local groups started expanding or until some other group invaded from outside

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    Quote Originally Posted by exceededminimumso.. View Post
    Things would stay the same until one of local groups started expanding or until some other group invaded from outside
    Perhaps


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    A paradise where people worship the Mother Goddess and look like Deanna Troi? Up North, some Comb Ceramists hunting seals and speaking a language basal to both Uralic and IE, perhaps. :)

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    Well Europe would be quite the same because there were no IE invasion of Europe since IE culture IS born in Europe. pontic caspian steppe is in eastern europe and the great bulk of cultural package of historical IE speaking people was mainly from central western europe ( sun cult, cremation ritual ecc....). So either IE was born in eastern europe or was a blending and a mix of eastern and western europe languages and cultures.

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    Regarding phenotypes more or less the same because the so called "Mediterranean" "Alpine" "Nordic" types were already in W.Europe before them. Same is true for brown green blue eyes, black blond red brown hair and dark/light skin.

    Warriors and patriarchy were present in many Pre-IE Copper age cultures. The only thing that would be very different is languages

    Example the widow tomb, Rinaldone culture
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rinaldone_culture
    A warrior was buried with his wife (killed)
    http://www.canino.info/inserti/monog...es/image-1.jpg

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    The Globular amphora too (the culture "conquered" by Corded ware/Yamnaya immigrants) was Pre-IE (EEF/WHG) and warlike...they weren't poor skinny farmers as someone seems to think :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    The Globular amphora too (the culture "conquered" by Corded ware/Yamnaya immigrants) was Pre-IE (EEF/WHG) and warlike...they weren't poor skinny farmers as someone seems to think :)

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    Thank you for your reply.. I was taught and I read always that pre IE populations in Europe were pretty pacifist ...


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    With the word ‘pacificst’ I mean they were not warlike .....


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    The Globular amphora too (the culture "conquered" by Corded ware/Yamnaya immigrants) was Pre-IE (EEF/WHG) and warlike...they weren't poor skinny farmers as someone seems to think :)

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    Cultures linked with high level of steppe ancestry like corded ware and bell beaker had a cultural package that was basically derived from the farmers world like the kurgans :

    Rassamakin Y.Y., 2011. Eneolithic Burial Mounds in the Black Sea Steppe: From the First Burial Symbols to Monumental Ritual Architecture. In: S. Muller-Celka (ed.). Ancestral Landscapes. TMO 61, Maison de l’Orient et la Méditerranée, Lyon, 293-306.

    like the crouched burial east-west or north south oriented which came from the farmers world ( serious archeologist call it "the farmers position"):

    STEPS TO THE STEPPE: OR, HOW THE NORTH PONTIC REGION WAS COLONISED

    Historical IE societies all ( from India to Ireland, from germanic and italic tribes to hittites) cremated their dead ( a clear western/farmers thing )

    even the corded ware pottery seem to be a product of the farmers :

    'CORD' ORNAMENTED POTTERY OF THE TRYPILLIA CULTURE

    not to mention the presence in the PIE vocabulary of agricultural terminology that rules out the chance of the more eastern part of the steppe as the PIE homeland.

    How much time we need to wake up guys?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriele Pashaj View Post
    Thank you for your reply.. I was taught and I read always that pre IE populations in Europe were pretty pacifist ...


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    Maybe (maybe) Early Neolithic Europeans were pacifist and egalitarian but Indoeuropeans migrated to Europe in the Copper Age and at that time warrior ideology was already widespread in the West (coming from the Near East with metallurgy?)

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    I'm not done here the connection with a male symbol of power that we generally associate with the corded ware but is much older and connected ( surprise!) with the western part of the continent and has Northern Italy as its epicenter:


    JADE vol. 3 & 4 ENGLISH ABSTRACTS, 2017.- Jade. Objets-signes et interprétations sociales des jades alpins dans l'Europe néolithique. Besançon, Presses universitaires de Franche-Comté et Centre de recherche archéologique de la vallée de l'Ain, vol. 4 : 1432-1466

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    I think we can have a vague idea of that if we just look at the mainly Neolithic Near Eastern-derived populations of West Asia, Southwest Asia and North Africa, as well as some remote regions that are overwhelmingly EEF (ANF + WHG) even today, like some parts of Sardinia. No, I don't think they'd be significantly less warlike, less patriarchal and more egalitarian than the Indo-European societies. Neolithic farming societies were also usually strongly kin-based and had a communal (clan-based or tribe-based) property of the land which would inevitably cause many conflicts especially in times of scarcity.

    I think we'd see different cultural and social organizations, but with the development of fully established states and complex economies they'd vie for wealth, power and dominance just as much as other peoples, especially because they were mainly farming societies, which are noticeably associated with increased patriarchal structures and significant income inequality (especially access to land) in most places where advanced farming civilizations happened.

    On the other hand, I think they'd probably have developed urban communities and organized state institutions earlier than the Indo-European-derived societies of Northern & Central Europe (in Southern Europe, it's clear there was a huge influence from the local Neolithic societies and also from civilizations on the other side of the Mediterranean). Until horses were adopted by them much later than they in fact did, those non-IE Europeans would be less mobile and more attached to their territories, possibly stimulating the earlier development of large-scale agriculture and permanent building.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gidai View Post
    Anyway, I do not know that really means much warfare and more diversity?
    If multicultural America with its African American population, Hispanic population, East Asian population, diverse European populations was invaded by the Chinese and within 50 years you only have Chinese men living with the black, white, brown women of American, but 95% of the native men cannot be found. Is that new population more diverse or less diverse.

    So every male in America being O3 and half chinese is less genetic uniformity. So Genghis Khan's warrior should have modeled their behavior after their predecessors' invasion of Europe and just chopped the heads off of every male for less genetic uniformity and more diversity in genetics. Very interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Messier 67 View Post
    If multicultural America with its African American population, Hispanic population, East Asian population, diverse European populations was invaded by the Chinese and within 50 years you only have Chinese men living with the black, white, brown women of American, but 95% of the native men cannot be found. Is that new population more diverse or less diverse.

    So every male in America being O3 and half chinese is less genetic uniformity. So Genghis Khan's warrior should have modeled their behavior after their predecessors' invasion of Europe and just chopped the heads off of every male for less genetic uniformity and more diversity in genetics. Very interesting.
    Can it sound too testosteronic? Sorry, but we must not underestimate the woman's power.
    I'll think about it.

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    The fact that it happened over a 1000 years rules out natural disasters. For a natural disaster would have killed both man and woman, and all at once. The neolithic mtDNA remains. And the male line elimination occurs at the arrival of the invaders.

    What I am curious about is did this happen before on the Steppe. Was there a native steppe population 10-15000 years ago that was also eliminated.

    Remember in Europe an increase of 5% in Muslim population is being touted as White Genocide. And those Muslim migrants are simply migrants, wanting a better life, and there are those who say shoot them at the border (still a poll option at eupedia) or kick them out.

    I am not the only one point out this is evidence of a genocide:

    The Irish make reference to it: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/scie...cide-1.1426197

    The British twice published it in the paper: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ncient-britons

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/...na-study-shows

    There was not just a replacement for those in Britain and Ireland by the same R1b tribes, it happened in Gaul and Iberia and to a extent in Northern Italy with the Celts there too. And R1a replace I in the Baltics, along with replacing the I2 in Scandinavia. Parts of Central Europe were spared, allowing for the establishment of the Germanic people, which is mostly a combination of I1, R1b, I2 and some R1a.

    This is like Armenian Genocide, only those tied to the genocide deny it.

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    Mesier 67 ...Sounds like you're too afraid of America's fate? Europe has gone through many and we are still here.

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    Survived. Thanks to the Germanics and Romans who brought back diversity to Europe.

    But for many it was the life of a newlywed husband who wife was stolen and raped for 40 years, whose killer fathered children from his own wife. Is that survival for the victim. His seedline perished.

    The Celts and the Slavs have been partying for the past 5000 years with other people's women.

    Multiculturalism is good for Europe.

    But that is what the irish times newspaper and the guardian newspaper are speaking about - someone's seedline gone forever, no children, no grandchildren. No descendants. None.

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