R1b-BY611>Z2705: Origins and Expansion

Thank you! You definitely helped a lot too. The Tuzla sample is from here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16182974. It is haplotype 13 there. Btw, do you mind showing me this other Tuzla study? The one I mentioned has n=181, maybe they are two different ones.

I see, I didn't know of that study from 2005. The one I mentioned is recent.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03014460.2016.1259430?src=recsys&

I agree that the Bulgarians are most likely BY611. Not 100% but if I had to bet I'd say at least 2 certainly are, and the other 2 have good chances.

There are 3 overall from Bulgarian study of 808, where only 247 are available, I'm sure there are more from this study out of remaining 561.


I agree that both Western or Eastern are possible for Z2705* as it is now on YFull, so with the haplotype DYS393=12 & DYS392=11 as the oldest split from the rest. But do you both agree on the other haplotypes I mentioned? Both DYS392=12 & DYS390=23 and DYS392=12 & DYS390=24 could be either earlier or equally early splits, and they are much more western in their distribution. So I'd say the DYS393=12 & DYS392=11 branch could be Western or Eastern, but Z2705 as a whole looks more western right now. Nothing close to a settled question though, of course.

Finding more Western samples even at Z2705 level would strengthen the Western origin hypothesis. Because per currently available samples from Bulgaria, it doesn't look like there are other good candidates. There is one dys389=14-28, dys392=14 from Roma study but he has dys393=13 so he's likely at YF14449 level. When I first noticed these dys392=11, I thought they might be alot older than they are, though it was still obvious at 29 STR's (from all studies combined) that they did not seem that distant from the others.

I agree these dys393=12, dys390=23 are very interesting, I found two of these in Spain too (YHRD), and by coincidence or not they were actually from Barcelona and Alicante, locations of two R-Y32843. Any dys393=12 is interesting, it's just when the TMRCA of Z2705 is so low and there are so many Z2705 haplotypes you are going to see plenty of unusual STR values as well.
 
I am looking at the sup info of that Tuzla study Aspurg posted and I don't see anything resembling BY611 there.

It would be nice if you guys actually pull out the STRs of the samples you're referencing from the scientific studies so the rest of us don't have to wast time looking around for them. Make an excel-sheet or just copy & past them here directly in ftnda format, either would work.
 
That link didn't even work for me. Anyway, I think he was just saying that he knew about that study of the Tuzla region and found no BY611.

So here is the one haplotype I was talking about, in comparison to the ser-7, which was already known. As you can see, it is identical to him in those few markers it has, and identical to the Y23373 sample too (although I'd guess they differ in the other markers).

DYS393=12 & DYS390=23 samples.jpg
 

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Ok, thanks. I seem to have misunderstood you guys. Still would be nice to bring the samples here when you reference them for all to see.
 
So I have been doing a lot of research these days and I found some interesting haplotypes, all of them belonging to Z2705 as far as I can tell. I think there is at least one more branch, maybe two, parallel to the 2705* that there is now. I will list them here and set some expectations:

1) DYS393=12; DYS390=23. These values are the same as the Y23373* on YFull so I expect this to be a very early split. It was found in Serbia (that ser-7 haplotype, which has been analyzed by Brygian on Anthrogenica before as Z2795 I think). But I also found one more haplotype from Bosnia & Hercegovina, Tuzla county. This one only has 8 markers but they are all identical to Y23373* as well as to ser-7. The Bosnian will definitely be somewhere between these two, but even assuming he and ser-7 are both under Z2705, I think they will form a separate line which is found in the north-western part of the Balkans.

2) The haplotypes with DYS393=13 and DYS390=23 could have evolved either from the haplotype above, or from the more common DYS393=13 & DYS390=24 haplotype. I favor the first option because of some peculiar marker values, but also because of its spread: 3 Albanians, 3 Serbian/Montenegrins, 1 Greek, 1 Croatian and one Italian from the North-East of Italy. It looks very much western.

3) The haplotypes DYS393=12, DYS390=24 & DYS392=13. I am guessing this could be a parallel branch of Z2705 too. There is a chance that the DYS393=12 & DYS392=11 line emerged from it, but DYS459 values make me think it might not be so. There are 6 Albanian, one Italian from Sicily, one Macedonian and the Croatian kindly mentioned by Aspurg with this haplotype.

The Croatian might be an ancestor to both all of those with DYS393=12 & DYS390=24, regardless of DYS392.

4) DYS393=12 & DYS392=11. We have already discussed this, I am just listing it here. There are 5 Albanians, 7 Aromanians from Albania, 5 Macedonian Turks, 1-2 Macedonians. I also found a Serbian from Vojvodina and 4 Greeks, two from the region of Western Macedonia, and one person from Sicily whose ethnicity I cannot find.

The Bulgarian and Romanian haplotypes brought by Aspurg lack DYS385 so it's not 100% they belong here, but it's likely at least some do (especially the Romanian because that exact haplotype, with DYS385=11-11) has been found elsewhere.

5) DYS393=13 & DYS392=11. This one might be a branch of the haplotype at 4). I found it in two Albanians, and one Serbian/Montenegrin. I also found these values in some more R1b from Arbereshe of Calabria, Croatia, Bosnia and Macedonia, but some off-modal values make uncertain they are all Z2705.

So to sum up, I believe there are at least three lines under Z2705, one scattered all over the Balkans, one quite north-western, and one just western.

I just found one more DYS292=12 and DYS390=23 haplotype (here: https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25457630). This one is from Sicily, more precisely a village called Santa Ninfa, and it has 23 markers.

So there are now three people with this haplotype: one from Belgrade, one from Tuzla, and now one from western Sicily. It's different from the Serbian sample in 5/23 markers, and two of them are double differences, so if it's also BY611 it might be a different branch.
 
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So I have been doing a lot of research these days and I found some interesting haplotypes, all of them belonging to Z2705 as far as I can tell. I think there is at least one more branch, maybe two, parallel to the 2705* that there is now. I will list them here and set some expectations:


3) The haplotypes DYS393=12, DYS390=24 & DYS392=13. I am guessing this could be a parallel branch of Z2705 too. There is a chance that the DYS393=12 & DYS392=11 line emerged from it, but DYS459 values make me think it might not be so. There are 6 Albanian, one Italian from Sicily, one Macedonian and the Croatian kindly mentioned by Aspurg with this haplotype.

The Croatian might be an ancestor to both all of those with DYS393=12 & DYS390=24, regardless of DYS392.


So to sum up, I believe there are at least three lines under Z2705, one scattered all over the Balkans, one quite north-western, and one just western.


What is your opinion about the next haplotype (no any SNP did)?

CroatiaR-M2691224141011-11121212121329189-1011112515192914-15-16-17101119-231514171736-381212
 
There's many non-modal values there. Can I know which study found it, or which are of Croatia it is from? I haven't seen it before. It would be great to try a couple of SNP tests for this person.

DYS393=12 is probably a sign of Y32147- and BY38894-. I'm waiting to see some DYS393=12 to be tested for these SNP-s before I'm certain but it does look that way.

DYS459 is also non-modal and the same as Y23373 and the same as the other Croatian haplotype mentioned by Aspurg. This marker is relatively stable for Y32147 and BY38894, so they both seem negative for these SNP-s, and if they are BY611, I'd say they should probably be either Z2705* or Z23373*. Among the other samples I found with DYS393=12 and DYS390=24, there is only one with DYS459 available, and it's 8-10. These two Croatians' values might be ancestral to his.
 
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There's many non-modal values there. Can I know which study found it, or which are of Croatia it is from? I haven't seen it before. It would be great to try a couple of SNP tests for this person.

DYS393=12 is probably a sign of Y32147- and BY38894-. I'm waiting to see some DYS393=12 to be tested for these SNP-s before I'm certain but it does look that way.

DYS459 is also non-modal and the same as Y23373 and the same as the other Croatian haplotype mentioned by Aspurg. This marker is relatively stable for Y32147 and BY38894, so they both seem negative for these SNP-s, and if they are BY611, I'd say they should probably be either Z2705* or Z23373*. Among the other samples I found with DYS393=12 and DYS390=24, there is only one with DYS459 available, and it's 8-10. These two Croatians might be ancestral to him.

I have found the haplotype in "Slovenia DNA project" at FTDna. There is no ethnicity, surname or place of origin.
I have been wondered for a long time whether it is BY611. His haplotype is different than one mentioned by Aspurg.
Here are some haplotypes you might find interesting:
CountryHaplogroupDYS393DYS390DYS19DYS391DYS385DYS426DYS388DYS439DYS389iDYS392DYS389iiDYS458DYS459DYS455DYS454DYS447DYS437DYS448DYS449DYS464DYS460Y-GATA-H4YCAIIDYS456DYS607DYS576DYS570CDYDYS442DYS438DYS531DYS578DYF395S1DYS590DYS537DYS641DYS472DYF406S1DYS511DYS425DYS413DYS557DYS594DYS436DYS490DYS534DYS450DYS444DYS481DYS520DYS446DYS617DYS568DYS487DYS572DYS640DYS492DYS565DYS710DYS485DYS632DYS495DYS540DYS714DYS716DYS717DYS505DYS556DYS549DYS589DYS522DYS494DYS533DYS636DYS575DYS638DYS462DYS452DYS445Y-GATA-A10DYS463DYS441Y-GGAAT-1B07DYS525DYS712DYS593DYS650DYS532DYS715DYS504DYS513DYS561DYS552DYS726DYS635DYS587DYS643DYS497DYS510DYS434DYS461DYS435
14LuLuserna CimbriansR-M269 (L51-)1225141111-11121313301615191116 12 23
16LuLuserna CimbriansR-M269 (L51-)1225141111-11121313301615191116 12 23
28LuLuserna CimbriansR-M269 (L51-)1225141111-11121313301615191016 12 23
Ysearch YARC5Croatia1224141111-11121211131329159-1011112515193014-16-16-18111119-2315121212141130121314102311
CroatiaR-M2691224141011-11121212121329189-1011112515192914-15-16-17101119-231514171736-381212
W_Croa_055W_Croa_055R1b1a21324141111-11 1213132916 1519 11 15 12 23
N_Croa_129N_Croa_129R1b1a21324141111-11 1213132916 1519 11 12 23
N_Croa_048N_Croa_048R1b1a21324141111-11 1313132916 1519 11 12 23
E_Croa_053E_Croa_053R1b1a21324141011-11 1213132915 1519 11 12 23
C_Croa_047C_Croa_047R1b1a21324141111-11 1213132915 1519 10 12 23
C_Croa_048C_Croa_048R1b1a21324141111-11 1213132915 1519 11 12 23
C_Croa_049C_Croa_049R1b1a21324141111-11 1213132916 1519 11 12 23
Western Croatia 1323141111–11131329 19-24
Ljubljana, Slovenia [Slovenian]1324141111-11 1213133016 1519 11 14 1817 12 22 13 12 23 10
 
Well with Z2705 thus far earliest split is dys392=11, and these are relatively equally dispersed among Albanians, Bulgarians, Romanians, Aromanians from Andon Poci, Turks from Macedonia, Greeks, Serbs (just one ?). Bulgarian haplotypes and Romanian from Dolj on low number of STR's seem to show more
Finally a Turk from Macedonia 393=12 and 392=11 sample in our project. He is from Dellga (D’llga) Kumanova region. On 37 he’s closer to Celibashi than to the Greek sample that’s currently on yfull. Also matching 12/12 the Bulgarian sample that has commercially tested, the fella from the Bulgarian project.

He identifies as Turk with origin from Anatolia. However, based on his results that doesn’t seem to be the case? Even autosomally he is 100% southeast European. Interesting thing is that Trifunovski mentions this village as being a muslim Albanian settlement, in one of his books. Also according to some Albanian sources who questioned the villagers there in the past, they seem to be with origin from Zabzun, Diber region. Crazy stuff.
 
What is your opinion about the next haplotype (no any SNP did)?


I have found the haplotype in "Slovenia DNA project" at FTDna. There is no ethnicity, surname or place of origin.
I have been wondered for a long time whether it is BY611. His haplotype is different than one mentioned by Aspurg.
Here are some haplotypes you might find interesting:


This is an interesting haplotype again. Although he is not close to NW Croatian they might be distantly related. If they are their TMRCA should be higher than the current 1250 ypb for R-Z2705. They share both dys549=9-10, that looks like their connecting point. Also unlike the first sample this one has dys607. And the value is 14, a match with R-Y23373* American there. dys607=14 is very unusual for R-CTS1450.

Among R-BY250 there is an English-Irish clade R-BY250>Y19469>Y32822 with modal dys385=11-11, TMRCA 850 ypb but the clade is old, being formed 4000 ybp, so the jump 14->11 could have happened at any point. They have dys459=9-10, but overall they seem very distant to these haplotypes. Also dys607=17. Also one isolated English BY250>Y19469>Y19752* has dys385=11-11 but one of defining values for Y19752 seems dys391=12 and generally 16/37 with this Croatian, hard to imagine he could be Y19752. Y32822 is also 15/37. And R-Y23373 is 14/37 with matches on dys459 and dys607. He's had a double mutation on dys389. That makes him instantly more distant to anybody.

If these are BY611, they would make the branch definitely Western-Balkan oriented. I know that Croatian was tested already 8 years ago, hence some missing STR's, so he's likely not active. But that from Slovenian Project might be "responsive"..


Finally a Turk from Macedonia 393=12 and 392=11 sample in our project. He is from Dellga (D’llga) Kumanova region. On 37 he’s closer to Celibashi than to the Greek sample that’s currently on yfull. Also matching 12/12 the Bulgarian sample that has commercially tested, the fella from the Bulgarian project.


He identifies as Turk with origin from Anatolia. However, based on his results that doesn’t seem to be the case? Even autosomally he is 100% southeast European. Interesting thing is that Trifunovski mentions this village as being a muslim Albanian settlement, in one of his books. Also according to some Albanian sources who questioned the villagers there in the past, they seem to be with origin from Zabzun, Diber region. Crazy stuff.


That's interesting, well there were 5 of those among Macedonian Turks, so it seems a common haplotype there. In Vasil Kanchov's book about Macedonia from 1900 there is no D'lga, closest dominantly Turkish villages were Sredno and Dolno Konjari some 7 km SW from D'lga, so they might hail from there. I don't think Turks would be 100% SE in that calculator, that's more typical of Albanians. Also as you said he's closer to Celibashi.. So I wouldn't buy the Anatolian story. Not to say that there aren't Macedonian Turks with Anatolian origins, there are various unusual haplotypes in their sample with matches in Anatolia..
 
This is an interesting haplotype again. Although he is not close to NW Croatian they might be distantly related. If they are their TMRCA should be higher than the current 1250 ypb for R-Z2705. They share both dys549=9-10, that looks like their connecting point. Also unlike the first sample this one has dys607. And the value is 14, a match with R-Y23373* American there. dys607=14 is very unusual for R-CTS1450.

Among R-BY250 there is an English-Irish clade R-BY250>Y19469>Y32822 with modal dys385=11-11, TMRCA 850 ypb but the clade is old, being formed 4000 ybp, so the jump 14->11 could have happened at any point. They have dys459=9-10, but overall they seem very distant to these haplotypes. Also dys607=17. Also one isolated English BY250>Y19469>Y19752* has dys385=11-11 but one of defining values for Y19752 seems dys391=12 and generally 16/37 with this Croatian, hard to imagine he could be Y19752. Y32822 is also 15/37. And R-Y23373 is 14/37 with matches on dys459 and dys607. He's had a double mutation on dys389. That makes him instantly more distant to anybody.

If these are BY611, they would make the branch definitely Western-Balkan oriented. I know that Croatian was tested already 8 years ago, hence some missing STR's, so he's likely not active. But that from Slovenian Project might be "responsive"..
This Croatian sample is really interesting and it does look like a BY611 and possibly even Z2705, but hard to say without SNP confirming it (I sent an email to the Slovenian admin about it so hopefully he responds). DYS607 doesn't seem that stable under Z2705, we have few samples in our project even confirmed Y32147+ who have DYS607=14, so it's all over the place.

That's interesting, well there were 5 of those among Macedonian Turks, so it seems a common haplotype there. In Vasil Kanchov's book about Macedonia from 1900 there is no D'lga, closest dominantly Turkish villages were Sredno and Dolno Konjari some 7 km SW from D'lga, so they might hail from there. I don't think Turks would be 100% SE in that calculator, that's more typical of Albanians. Also as you said he's closer to Celibashi.. So I wouldn't buy the Anatolian story. Not to say that there aren't Macedonian Turks with Anatolian origins, there are various unusual haplotypes in their sample with matches in Anatolia..

Yes indeed. Same thing with Trifunovski, he speaks of Turks from Konjare and few other villages around there but doesn't mention any in D'lga. He only speaks of D'lga when he mentions the Albanians there. Not that familiar with the autosomal DNA of Balkan Turks but thought that was surprising him scoring 100%. Not just that but also his autosomal matches are predominantly Albanian.
 
The Slovenian project admin is unwilling to cooperate for some reason. He replied to a first email but as soon as the Croatian sample was mentioned he stopped replying. There is no way to contact that person.

In any case, I think that one might even be BY250 or L51+, I'm not sure. But the one Aspurg mentioned at the beginning, who was part of the Serbian project, he seems like BY611, almost certainly. I have tried to find a way to contact him, but he has disappeared. If anyone knows how to get to that person let me know, I will find a way to sponsor an additional test to determine his position on the tree.
 
This Croatian sample is really interesting and it does look like a BY611 and possibly even Z2705, but hard to say without SNP confirming it (I sent an email to the Slovenian admin about it so hopefully he responds). DYS607 doesn't seem that stable under Z2705, we have few samples in our project even confirmed Y32147+ who have DYS607=14, so it's all over the place.



Yes indeed. Same thing with Trifunovski, he speaks of Turks from Konjare and few other villages around there but doesn't mention any in D'lga. He only speaks of D'lga when he mentions the Albanians there. Not that familiar with the autosomal DNA of Balkan Turks but thought that was surprising him scoring 100%. Not just that but also his autosomal matches are predominantly Albanian.

I am that Turk from D'liga village of Kumanova,

I am ofcourse autosomally almost no different to Albanians, because my mother, my father's mother, my grandpa's mother and great grandpa's mother all are Albanian so this intermarrying made me so close to Albanian autosomal. the only difference is i have %1 east asian components, that is how much left after mixing so much with Albanians, a typical Turk from Turkey have average of %10 East Asian components, Turks from Bulgaria have average of %8 and Turks from Eastern Macedonia has average of %4 East Asian components depending on the region. These are average thou, sometimes it is as less as %1 sometimes high as %20 we have good amount of samples in several Turkish dna projects.
As you know autosomal dna completely changes after 6 or 7 generations of mixing so after 5 generations of Albanian brides i almost have became like a typical Albanian autosomally. My gedmatch kit number is: T018225 if you want to check.

Our known family history in the D'liga village is not so old, we have been there maximum for 150 or 200 years, as our elders told us that we have migrated to D'liga from Debar (i dont know macedonia Debar or Albania Debar) due to a murder our great great grandpa did(probably his name was Suleyman) but we always knew that we came to Debar earlier from Bursa(Karacabey) as an imam and that is how it is written in the Ottoman Tax archives, but some elders say we had come to Debar from the north like Tataristan and some says we were always in Debar and we are actually Albanians, so it is actually unknown, but if they were really Albanian then how and why would they be assimilated into being Turkish while living in Albanian lands, doesn't make sense.

Closest Muslim villages to our village are Konjare villages(Turks) and Romanovtse(Ramalija-Albanian village) we always gave our girls to Konjare as brides but we got our brides from Romanovtse except my mom, she is from Studenicani. Women in our family are all Albanian and they learnt Turkish afterwards but men in our family speaks no other language than Turkish, they don't know any other language, they have learnt only Serbian in the army service during Yugoslavia time and they are not really fluent. By the way my grandpa always told me he and my grandmother could not speak at all in first 6 months of their marriage :) he couldn't speak Albanian and she couldn't speak Turkish.

I personally don't believe the migration from Anatolia even thou it is in the Ottoman tax archives but we surprisingly use very much archaic Turkic words and traditions that are used by Turkic tribes in Ural region, that is interesting, plus some of the elders in my paternal line has very much asiatic phenotypes, like very much slanted eyes, less facial hair high cheek bones, but some of them looks typical European, i would love to test their autosomal dna but they all have passed away in recent years.

My Y dna is tested by family tree dna with 37 markers and ftdna predicts R1b M-269 then i have calculated my str results on nevgen and it predicts Z2103-BY611 with %100 probability but i didn't buy snp pack, it is prediction with my 37 markers by nevgen. I have only one match on ftdna and that is a Bulgarian guy from thracian region, i contacted his friend and he said he is an orthodox Bulgarian and he doesn't have a different background as far as he knows, he only tested y12 thou so i can't see if he matches me on other markers too. i have no any other match, only him and he is Bulgarian that is interesting.

My y37 str results with ftdna orders:

12,24,14,11,11-11,12,12,13,13,11,29

14,8-9,11,11,25,15,19,30,14-16-16-17

12,11,19-23,15,15,18,17,36-37,12,12

im open to hear any information, some guy said my subclade may be mutated recently therefore it only has one Y12 match, i don't know if that is the case, im not really expert on these, just learning and enjoying
 
I am that Turk from D'liga village of Kumanova

Hi Atalay! Thank you for reaching out and welcome.


that is how it is written in the Ottoman Tax archives

Which archive are you talking about exactly? Could you cite the source, and the page number please?


why would they be assimilated into being Turkish while living in Albanian lands

This type of conversion was actually very frequent. Keep in mind that Macedonia has never been an Albanian controlled territory, and whoever had the government exercised power in whichever way they saw fit. For example, many Albanians in Macedonia "switched" to Turks in the 1950's and were allowed to move to Turkey. Before that, many Balkan Muslims were pushed to identify as Turks, during the Ottoman Empire, especially from the Young Turks. They pursued a Turkish nationalistic policy aiming to unify all Muslims of the Empire into one identity. Many "native" Balkan people assumed a Turkish identity despite not actually having arrived from Turkey. Studies are already finding that Turkish-speakers in the Balkans today are genetically identical to other Balkan people (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19107901). So it's entirely possible that your paternal ancestors are originally from the Balkans.


I have only one match on ftdna and that is a Bulgarian guy from thracian region, i contacted his friend and he said he is an orthodox Bulgarian and he doesn't have a different background as far as he knows, he only tested y12 thou so i can't see if he matches me on other markers too. i have no any other match, only him and he is Bulgarian that is interesting.

Your haplotype is very interesting but we already know that about 20 other people from Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia and Romania match it (we have discussed this haplotype in this thread, check the posts above). This includes people tested commercially and through scientific studies.

My Y dna is tested by family tree dna with 37 markers and ftdna predicts R1b M-269 then i have calculated my str results on nevgen and it predicts Z2103-BY611 with %100 probability but i didn't buy snp pack, it is prediction with my 37 markers by nevgen.

If you click here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/, you will see a Greek sample, YF14723. I am pretty certain that you would form a subclade together with him. So doing an SNP pack will not tell you anything new. However, if you want to learn more about your ancestry, I would highly recommend BigY (or Elite Y or Dante Labs WGS). These tests will not only tell you exactly where you belong on the tree, but also how close you are to YF14723 and everyone else. You will also know your personal Y-DNA mutations and have about 500 STR values to compare with others. Furthermore, when new samples similar to you do these deep tests, they will also tell you how far you are from them.
 
Hi Atalay! Thank you for reaching out and welcome.
Which archive are you talking about exactly? Could you cite the source, and the page number please?
This type of conversion was actually very frequent. Keep in mind that Macedonia has never been an Albanian controlled territory, and whoever had the government exercised power in whichever way they saw fit. For example, many Albanians in Macedonia "switched" to Turks in the 1950's and were allowed to move to Turkey. Before that, many Balkan Muslims were pushed to identify as Turks, during the Ottoman Empire, especially from the Young Turks. They pursued a Turkish nationalistic policy aiming to unify all Muslims of the Empire into one identity. Many "native" Balkan people assumed a Turkish identity despite not actually having arrived from Turkey. Studies are already finding that Turkish-speakers in the Balkans today are genetically identical to other Balkan people (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19107901). So it's entirely possible that your paternal ancestors are originally from the Balkans.


Your haplotype is very interesting but we already know that about 20 other people from Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia and Romania match it (we have discussed this haplotype in this thread, check the posts above). This includes people tested commercially and through scientific studies.
If you click here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/, you will see a Greek sample, YF14723. I am pretty certain that you would form a subclade together with him. So doing an SNP pack will not tell you anything new. However, if you want to learn more about your ancestry, I would highly recommend BigY (or Elite Y or Dante Labs WGS). These tests will not only tell you exactly where you belong on the tree, but also how close you are to YF14723 and everyone else. You will also know your personal Y-DNA mutations and have about 500 STR values to compare with others. Furthermore, when new samples similar to you do these deep tests, they will also tell you how far you are from them.
Albanians were expelled from today North Macedonia in the 1950's by the Yugoslav communist authorities, continuing an pre WWII agreement between Turkey and Kingdom of Yugoslavia. It was an ethnic cleansing.
 
Thank you for your repsonse,

i didn't read it in the ottoman archives personally, one of our relatives did, it is called "Tahrir" archives. Basically ottoman's population archive in order to collect taxes, it is in Ottoman script i can't read it anyway.

İn our D'liga village there are 3 different families, these three families are not relatives and they all came to the village from different places, we don't know which one is from Dibre.

My fathers family is definitely not one of these who turned to Turkishness in 20th century. My mothers family did thou. My maternal grandpa changed his identity to "Turk" to be able to immigrate to Turkey in 1950's but he was totally aware he is ethnic Albanian, it is just on papers he seemed Turk, my paternal side is totally different story thou, they identify themselves as Turk for centuries and they are known as Turk, all the neighbouring Albanian villages in Kumanova and Skopje call our village as Turk village, when im in Macedonia whenever i tell an Albanian im from D'liga the first thing they say is you guys are stubborn Turks who didn't learn any language for 600 years :) my paternal side can only speak Turkish, just last 2 generations could speak Albanian and Macedonian because they moved to bigger cities like Kumanova and Skopje but the elders can speak only Turkish.

Our village is not a kind of village to be turned into Turkish by assimilation because it is so isolated on the mountains and there is no even road to the village, nobody even wanted to get married there because it is so isolated and poor condition, my grandpa always told me since there is no road on winter times they were trapped in the village for months.

if my paternal side turn out to be Albanian in origin i would not mind at all i would be proud of it because i already consider myself as Albanian except my paternal line but still let's be cautious on this because it is genetic science, lets please think objectively before making a statement, i could be any one of these ethnicities in balkans so labeling me as Albanian right away seems a little subjective to me. Please take my autosomal dna out of this subject. Autosomally im Albanian because our last 5 generations mothers are albanian but that doesnt change my Y dna ofcourse.

When did this BY-611 exactly came to Balkans? Or is it evolved in Balkans? İt is a subclade of z2103 right so when did it apart from z2103 exactly?
 
This is an interesting haplotype again. Although he is not close to NW Croatian they might be distantly related. If they are their TMRCA should be higher than the current 1250 ypb for R-Z2705. They share both dys549=9-10, that looks like their connecting point. Also unlike the first sample this one has dys607. And the value is 14, a match with R-Y23373* American there. dys607=14 is very unusual for R-CTS1450.

Among R-BY250 there is an English-Irish clade R-BY250>Y19469>Y32822 with modal dys385=11-11, TMRCA 850 ypb but the clade is old, being formed 4000 ybp, so the jump 14->11 could have happened at any point. They have dys459=9-10, but overall they seem very distant to these haplotypes. Also dys607=17. Also one isolated English BY250>Y19469>Y19752* has dys385=11-11 but one of defining values for Y19752 seems dys391=12 and generally 16/37 with this Croatian, hard to imagine he could be Y19752. Y32822 is also 15/37. And R-Y23373 is 14/37 with matches on dys459 and dys607. He's had a double mutation on dys389. That makes him instantly more distant to anybody.

If these are BY611, they would make the branch definitely Western-Balkan oriented. I know that Croatian was tested already 8 years ago, hence some missing STR's, so he's likely not active. But that from Slovenian Project might be "responsive"..





That's interesting, well there were 5 of those among Macedonian Turks, so it seems a common haplotype there. In Vasil Kanchov's book about Macedonia from 1900 there is no D'lga, closest dominantly Turkish villages were Sredno and Dolno Konjari some 7 km SW from D'lga, so they might hail from there. I don't think Turks would be 100% SE in that calculator, that's more typical of Albanians. Also as you said he's closer to Celibashi.. So I wouldn't buy the Anatolian story. Not to say that there aren't Macedonian Turks with Anatolian origins, there are various unusual haplotypes in their sample with matches in Anatolia..
You have a very interesting Y haplogroup your haplogroup is highest in Albanians and Montenegrin
 
Albanians were expelled from today North Macedonia in the 1950's by the Yugoslav communist authorities, continuing an pre WWII agreement between Turkey and Kingdom of Yugoslavia. It was an ethnic cleansing.
Slovenians planted bombs in Ex Yugoslavia then the Croatians sided with them and the rest is history.
 
Thank you for your repsonse,

i didn't read it in the ottoman archives personally, one of our relatives did, it is called "Tahrir" archives. Basically ottoman's population archive in order to collect taxes, it is in Ottoman script i can't read it anyway.

İn our D'liga village there are 3 different families, these three families are not relatives and they all came to the village from different places, we don't know which one is from Dibre.

My fathers family is definitely not one of these who turned to Turkishness in 20th century. My mothers family did thou. My maternal grandpa changed his identity to "Turk" to be able to immigrate to Turkey in 1950's but he was totally aware he is ethnic Albanian, it is just on papers he seemed Turk, my paternal side is totally different story thou, they identify themselves as Turk for centuries and they are known as Turk, all the neighbouring Albanian villages in Kumanova and Skopje call our village as Turk village, when im in Macedonia whenever i tell an Albanian im from D'liga the first thing they say is you guys are stubborn Turks who didn't learn any language for 600 years :) my paternal side can only speak Turkish, just last 2 generations could speak Albanian and Macedonian because they moved to bigger cities like Kumanova and Skopje but the elders can speak only Turkish.

Our village is not a kind of village to be turned into Turkish by assimilation because it is so isolated on the mountains and there is no even road to the village, nobody even wanted to get married there because it is so isolated and poor condition, my grandpa always told me since there is no road on winter times they were trapped in the village for months.

if my paternal side turn out to be Albanian in origin i would not mind at all i would be proud of it because i already consider myself as Albanian except my paternal line but still let's be cautious on this because it is genetic science, lets please think objectively before making a statement, i could be any one of these ethnicities in balkans so labeling me as Albanian right away seems a little subjective to me. Please take my autosomal dna out of this subject. Autosomally im Albanian because our last 5 generations mothers are albanian but that doesnt change my Y dna ofcourse.

When did this BY-611 exactly came to Balkans? Or is it evolved in Balkans? İt is a subclade of z2103 right so when did it apart from z2103 exactly?

Being a Turk from Macedonia is not a calling card to have number one Caucasus ancestry, number two Albanian ancestry, not all Albanians from Macedonia have Caucasus ancestry although some do. Most Albanians in Macedonia are the same as those in Kosovo just normal Balkan.

Other ethnicity in Macedonia are Bulgarians Serbs, Greeks and Vlach Romanians, Macedonians are often South Romanians or Bulgarians the other admixtures are minimal.

Also, what's your Mother's side there isn't such a thing as a Turkish race you're all converts to Islam and most Turkish males have ten to fifteen percent Mongolic dna anyway.
 
if my paternal side turn out to be Albanian in origin i would not mind at all i would be proud of it because i already consider myself as Albanian except my paternal line but still let's be cautious on this because it is genetic science, lets please think objectively before making a statement, i could be any one of these ethnicities in balkans so labeling me as Albanian right away seems a little subjective to me. Please take my autosomal dna out of this subject. Autosomally im Albanian because our last 5 generations mothers are albanian but that doesnt change my Y dna ofcourse.

When did this BY-611 exactly came to Balkans? Or is it evolved in Balkans? İt is a subclade of z2103 right so when did it apart from z2103 exactly?

I wasn't saying your Y-DNA line is 100% Albanian, we don't know that yet, but there is a good chance.

BY611 is 3300 years old and the R1b-Z2705 Balkan branch has been in the Balkans for at least 1300 years, but I think that once these uncommon haplotypes are commercially tested this will be pushed by several hundred years, into the Roman period. Before that, this line seems to have been in Mediterranean Europe, it's impossible to guess where. Even your own haplotype, if you upload it to YFull, might change the R1b-Z2705 TMRCA a bit.
 

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