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Thread: R1b-BY611>Z2705: Origins and Expansion

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    I bet [Clint Eastwood doppelgänger ]would be interested in our distant male relative [14k+/-]Villabruna "European" aka R1b-754.
    Sorry, I'm not following. There were no Clint Eastwood looking WHG men, the "I" carriers. Nor does he look like what the ANE would have looked like. That long face, long nose, and refined features owe as much, and maybe more, to Anatolian farmers and CHG Caucasus types as to WHG or ANE people.




    [IMG][/IMG]

    Or, Alessio Boni even more, maybe.


    Definitely a combination of strains, but also definitely not WHG like or ANE like: different head shape, different face shape, different facial bones, different eye shape, not to mention that the phenotype combining light hair, light eyes and pale skin didn't come together until millennia afterwards.

    People like "Andrew" are living in a toxic fantasy land.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    And your point? I don't understand why you keep picking on the main Albanian haplogroups and pointing out their distant non-European origin. If we go back in time, none of these haplogroups you mention are native to Europe.



    E-V13, or its direct ancestral clade, has been proven to be in the Balkans/Europe since the Neolithic.



    Wrong! There is no good chance that J2b-L283 arrived from the Middle East/Levant, just because J2b-M205 was found there. The chances are much better from Iran/Caucuses area. You also need to understand that the split between these two J2b branches is almost as old as the split between R1a and R1b. Their distribution is also quite different.

    At the end of day it doesn't matter much where J2b-L283 came from. We know that it was found in Middle Bronze Age Dalmatia, and by all accounts in a Proto-Illyrian culture. I know you don't like this fact, because it appears you would prefer only "European" haplogroups to show up on these sites.

    Ps. Sorry to the OP for going off topic here, but this guy has a history of suggesting the main Albanian HGs are of "non-European origin", including at Anthrogenica.
    Interesting


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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    It looks like E-V13's direct parent was found in ancient north Africa, and J2b1 seems to be present in Bronze Age Levant (a distant brother from arriving with Iran related ancestry). While I know it's not direct proof, but there is a good chance both branches arrived from the Middle East no?

    THe earliest aDNA we have from the north Balkans are WHG-EHG blends of I2-M223 and R1b-V88 at Iron Gates. My educated guess would be that M269+ spread from western Ukraine during or after the Neolithic, since that's exactly where it turns up in aDNA.
    If you are a Serb residing in Canada, here is the news: Serbs also have large linage of this haplogroups. If you are a self-loving Nordics' the news is that most of you were one race with east Asians some time ago. Nordics are not the real European's! Only haplogroup I is

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    If we follow YFull tree and branch Z2705 certainly has a source in southeast europe or it is very likely for now, as far Croatia is concerned there are three options, first and least probable is that subclade or subbranches of the same comes with Slavs(White Croats) to Croatia, second option is that is assimilated when Slavs (White Croats) coming to Croata and most likely option is that people with Z2705 subclade or branch coming to Croatia as Vlachs in Turkish period who today are Serbs or Croats.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/


    In the Bosnian DNA project precisely south Serbia(sandžak area) there are a lot of people with branch BY611,
    R1b-Z2103-BY611
    possible and with this R-Z2705 branch.



    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...4456171879&z=8

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Some updates on R-Z2705:

    1- There are now 4 parallel Z2705* lines on YFull. It is likely that one of these (393=12) is negative for an additional SNP which YFull does not use.
    2- It seems there are a few new 393=12 haplotypes now. The ones with 392=11 are still widespread all over the Balkans, while the rest seem more concentrated in Albania and ex-Yugoslavia.
    3- There is an additional SNP at the Y32147 level: Y125049. It is not very likely, but still possible that some Y32147+ might be Y125049-. The position of this SNP is currently based on only a few high coverage samples, so some single SNP tests on YSEQ might reveal novelties, or at least consolidate it.

    Some interesting haplotypes from different projects:
    From Treviso, Italy - 12 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 11 13 13 29 15 9-10 10 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18 11 12 19-23 15 17 18 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 21 20 14 12 11 13 10 11 12 12
    From Hungary - 12 24 15 11 11-11 12 12 13 14 13 30 16 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-15-18 11 12 19-23 15 16 17 17 37-37 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 22-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 14 12 11 13 10 11 12 12
    From Sicily - 12 23 14 10 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29

    The Treviso haplotype has only GD=4/32 with Juran, Srcak, Croatia. It is likely that these two form a clade, and they are pretty close geographically too. It would be very useful to have a SNP test for one such haplotype, to see if it is under BY611. If you know someone, let me know, I will help.

    The Sicily haplotype is only Y12 so the confidence of it being BY611 is not very high. However, Sicily has several other confirmed BY611, and other R1b clades are not as common as elsewhere in Italy.

    With the current data, it seems the R-Z2705 TMRCA lived somewhere in the western Balkans around 1700 ybp. It is also possible that the 393=12 & 392=11 branch could have moved to a more central area early on, and spread in all directions from there. In any case, there should be at least 4-5 393=12 samples on YFull before we can reach reliable conclusions. I would like to encourage all project leaders to push their members with 393=12 to do BigY/NGS.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    If we follow YFull tree and branch Z2705 certainly has a source in southeast europe or it is very likely for now, as far Croatia is concerned there are three options, first and least probable is that subclade or subbranches of the same comes with Slavs(White Croats) to Croatia, second option is that is assimilated when Slavs (White Croats) coming to Croata and most likely option is that people with Z2705 subclade or branch coming to Croatia as Vlachs in Turkish period who today are Serbs or Croats.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/


    In the Bosnian DNA project precisely south Serbia(sandžak area) there are a lot of people with branch BY611,
    possible and with this R-Z2705 branch.



    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...4456171879&z=8
    BY611>Z2705 coming with Slavs is very unlikely, I think we could say impossible judging by the current data that we have. It has no diversity or frequency whatsoever in the area that we believe Slavs came from, or in any non-Balkan Slavic nation for that matter. Everything is pointing towards an origin in the Balkans for Z2705. BY611 itself though may have origin more west going by basal clades.

    The BY611 among these Bosniaks is Z2705 like other Balkan BY611. However, these samples are overwhelmingly of paternal Albanian origin. Most descend from clans such as the Kelmendi, Trieshi, Koja etc. They have now adopted a Bosniak identity
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Some interesting haplotypes from different projects:

    The Treviso haplotype has only GD=4/32 with Juran, Srcak, Croatia. It is likely that these two form a clade, and they are pretty close geographically too. It would be very useful to have a SNP test for one such haplotype, to see if it is under BY611. If you know someone, let me know, I will help.
    OK, with 67 STR's I have some strong SNP predictions for them:

    1) They have dys572=10, modal for BY611, modal for both BY250 and Y5587 is dys572=11. This is a slow STR. They should be BY611+ (also based on dys385=11-11)

    2) DYS446=14, modal for all Z2705 including dys392=11 is DYS446=15+, so they are Z2705- (or at least some other SNP at that level that the current samples are all positive on)
    3) They lack DYS565=11 (modal for R-Y30192) so they are Y30192-.

    4) DYS446=14 indicates they are CTS9219+ because up until Y5592* DYS446=13 is modal.

    Italian and Croat share with American YF06082 DYS549=9-10 so they might form a clade with him.

    So treviso Italian, Hungarian and Juran should be BY611+, Y30192-, Z2705-.

    The only other CTS9219* with modal dys572=10 is some R-BY46965 but they have standard dys385=11/10-14 Swiss and french they are 14/67 but also have modals and old values of dys389i=14, dys464a=16, dys464cd=18-18, it's very unlikely they are of this clade.

    Juran is 5/33 with Italian, sharing some like DYS549=9-10, dys439=11 so it seems they are related. Hungarian also shares with them dys464d=18 though he seems distant, still he also has STR's suggesting BY611+, Y30192-, Z2705-.

    It seems you are of Illyrian ancestry if this is confirmed (and I cannot see how these are not BY611+, Y30192-, Z2705-, and very likely Juran alongside).

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Some updates on R-Z2705:

    1- There are now 4 parallel Z2705* lines on YFull. It is likely that one of these (393=12) is negative for an additional SNP which YFull does not use.
    2- It seems there are a few new 393=12 haplotypes now. The ones with 392=11 are still widespread all over the Balkans, while the rest seem more concentrated in Albania and ex-Yugoslavia.
    3- There is an additional SNP at the Y32147 level: Y125049. It is not very likely, but still possible that some Y32147+ might be Y125049-. The position of this SNP is currently based on only a few high coverage samples, so some single SNP tests on YSEQ might reveal novelties, or at least consolidate it.

    Some interesting haplotypes from different projects:
    From Treviso, Italy - 12 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 11 13 13 29 15 9-10 10 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18 11 12 19-23 15 17 18 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 21 20 14 12 11 13 10 11 12 12
    From Hungary - 12 24 15 11 11-11 12 12 13 14 13 30 16 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-15-18 11 12 19-23 15 16 17 17 37-37 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 22-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 14 12 11 13 10 11 12 12
    From Sicily - 12 23 14 10 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29

    The Treviso haplotype has only GD=4/32 with Juran, Srcak, Croatia. It is likely that these two form a clade, and they are pretty close geographically too. It would be very useful to have a SNP test for one such haplotype, to see if it is under BY611. If you know someone, let me know, I will help.

    The Sicily haplotype is only Y12 so the confidence of it being BY611 is not very high. However, Sicily has several other confirmed BY611, and other R1b clades are not as common as elsewhere in Italy.

    With the current data, it seems the R-Z2705 TMRCA lived somewhere in the western Balkans around 1700 ybp. It is also possible that the 393=12 & 392=11 branch could have moved to a more central area early on, and spread in all directions from there. In any case, there should be at least 4-5 393=12 samples on YFull before we can reach reliable conclusions. I would like to encourage all project leaders to push their members with 393=12 to do BigY/NGS.
    It will be interesting to see the placement of future archaeogentic samples with Y5592*Isn't the current sample from Sweden?





    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y5592/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Some updates on R-Z2705:


    The Sicily haplotype is only Y12 so the confidence of it being BY611 is not very high. However, Sicily has several other confirmed BY611, and other R1b clades are not as common as elsewhere in Italy.
    I do not remember if we mentioned two haplotypes from an anonymous study of 884 Italians, probably someone mentioned them. Both are confirmed as P311-
    ; SampleID Population DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 DYS391 DYS385a DYS385b DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II DYS458 DYS437 DYS448 GATAH4 DYS456 DYS438 DYS635 HG (ISOGG 2009)
    333 Grosseto/Siena 12 24 14 11 11 12 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 15 19 12 15 12 23 R1b1b2-M269 (xP311)
    712 Catania 12 24 14 11 11 11 12 12 12 13 14 29 16 15 19 NA 15 12 24 R1b1b2-M269 (xP311)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    It will be interesting to see the placement of future archaeogentic samples with Y5592*Isn't the current sample from Sweden?

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y5592/
    I believe so. But with 4800 years old connections, I wouldn't be surprised if TMRCA lived in the Steppe. Which future samples are you referring to?


    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad82 View Post
    I do not remember if we mentioned two haplotypes from an anonymous study of 884 Italians, probably someone mentioned them. Both are confirmed as P311-


    The Catania one yes, but I had not noticed the Siena one, thank you! Hard to tell from STRs, as usual, but he doesn't seem to have any important offmodals for BY611 at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    OK, with 67 STR's I have some strong SNP predictions for them:

    1) They have dys572=10, modal for BY611, modal for both BY250 and Y5587 is dys572=11. This is a slow STR. They should be BY611+ (also based on dys385=11-11)

    2) DYS446=14, modal for all Z2705 including dys392=11 is DYS446=15+, so they are Z2705- (or at least some other SNP at that level that the current samples are all positive on)
    3) They lack DYS565=11 (modal for R-Y30192) so they are Y30192-.

    4) DYS446=14 indicates they are CTS9219+ because up until Y5592* DYS446=13 is modal.

    Italian and Croat share with American YF06082 DYS549=9-10 so they might form a clade with him.

    So treviso Italian, Hungarian and Juran should be BY611+, Y30192-, Z2705-.

    The only other CTS9219* with modal dys572=10 is some R-BY46965 but they have standard dys385=11/10-14 Swiss and french they are 14/67 but also have modals and old values of dys389i=14, dys464a=16, dys464cd=18-18, it's very unlikely they are of this clade.

    Juran is 5/33 with Italian, sharing some like DYS549=9-10, dys439=11 so it seems they are related. Hungarian also shares with them dys464d=18 though he seems distant, still he also has STR's suggesting BY611+, Y30192-, Z2705-.

    It seems you are of Illyrian ancestry if this is confirmed (and I cannot see how these are not BY611+, Y30192-, Z2705-, and very likely Juran alongside).
    DYS446 does have some rare 14 values among Z2705+ samples. Check out the Greek project, for example. But I agree that it is a hint that these might have split earlier. For the rest of what you said, I agree, although STRs are never certain indicators for SNP positions in these clades, especially with so few BY611+ Z2705- samples.

    I would say that among the known clades, the likeliest possibility is that they split Z2705, or are at least BY611. But they could also be a completely new clade somewhere under M269, that we have not discovered yet.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I took a closer look at the Italian haplotype today and possible classifications under BY250. If he happens to be BY250+, the most likely classification seems Y32821. Comparing only BY611 to Y32821, he has modal Y32821 values at DYS607 & DYS446, but modal BY611 at DYS437 & DYS456, in addition to DYS572 which Aspurg mentioned. It could still be either of them, or a completely new clade.

    Another news from today is that there is a new haplotype from the region of Vlore with 393=12 & 392=11. In addition to having several offmodal values, he has a full 14/14 match with the Andon Poci Vlach haplotypes found in the Bosch study, which suggests that they might have been locals after all.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    I took a closer look at the Italian haplotype today and possible classifications under BY250. If he happens to be BY250+, the most likely classification seems Y32821. Comparing only BY611 to Y32821, he has modal Y32821 values at DYS607 & DYS446, but modal BY611 at DYS437 & DYS456, in addition to DYS572 which Aspurg mentioned. It could still be either of them, or a completely new clade.
    DYS607 is the main point in favor of BY250, however DYS607 doesn't seem that stable in R-Z2103. He does have a modal value at DYS446 for BY611 that are Z2705- because YF06082 also has DYS446=14. And as I've said it is modal for CTS9219 up until Z2705 level in BY611. And ofc DYS572 as a very slow STR seems to be a very good indicator of BY611+ (in addition to dys385). Also R-Y32821 has some specific off-modals at dys447, dys437, DYF406S1, DYS557 not shared by Italian nor by other BY250's. So especially considering these off-modals of R-Y32821 it is quite unlikely Italian is R-Y32821 (dys385b=11 would also have to be the oldest private mutation for R-Y32821 in such case, older than these others which is also in itself not likely statistically as randomly dys385 has only 20 % of chance of being oldest mutation against other 4 STR's, if any of these are older than dys385b it is automatically very unlikely that Italian is Y32821+). If I were to calculate chances between BY611 and R-Y32821 they would not be in Y32821's favor by a long way. I have to say it looks good for them being some more basal Balkan BY611 especially if Croat can be also confirmed as connected to these.. But hey you still need to get one of these confirmed and to do a BigY etc.. So good luck in that department..

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    If I were to calculate chances between BY611 and R-Y32821 they would not be in Y32821's favor by a long way.
    If I had to pick something, I would also select BY611*, but you never know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    But hey you still need to get one of these confirmed and to do a BigY etc.. So good luck in that department..
    I am trying . It seems no one knows anyone related to either the Italian or the Croatian though.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Lutovci/Piperi are Y32147-, so Z2705* diversity in that broader area increases.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Yeah, as expected. Beyond me why the Serbian project was classifying them as Y32147+

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Yeah, as expected. Beyond me why the Serbian project was classifying them as Y32147+
    Based on similarity at 23 STR's I think. But that is always very problematic for Z2705 unless there are some good off-modals. I haven't really made a prediction because I never saw their haplotype at 37+ STR's, but Ownstyler was right that they will be Y32147-.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Based on similarity at 23 STR's I think. But that is always very problematic for Z2705 unless there are some good off-modals. I haven't really made a prediction because I never saw their haplotype at 37+ STR's, but Ownstyler was right that they will be Y32147-.
    So what can be said now about Y32147?


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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J1-P58
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1l

    Ethnic group
    Gheg Albanian-Kelmendi clan(Joined) but with supposed origin from Montenegro
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Lutovci/Piperi are Y32147-, so Z2705* diversity in that broader area increases.
    Also debunks the theory that the R1b Kelmendi have an ancestral link to the Piperi-Lutovci. The R1b Kelmendi members are Y32147+ and likely Y32147>Y82919.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Based on similarity at 23 STR's I think. But that is always very problematic for Z2705 unless there are some good off-modals. I haven't really made a prediction because I never saw their haplotype at 37+ STR's, but Ownstyler was right that they will be Y32147-.
    Yeah it is never 100% certain without SNPs. That is why we need to be conservative with classifications. I would have just classified him as R-Z2705 even though I believed he would end up as R-Z2705*. Anyway, it's great that it's clear now.

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Some important developments have happened since the last time this thread was updated. Some of the news:

    - A new subclade of R-BY611>Y32147 was created, BY126039, with one sample from Bulgaria (Pomak) and one from the Montenegro half of Sandzak.
    - Several Y32147- BigY/NGS results were finally completed. There is already one Y32147- subclade defined by BY218801, which will soon include a cluster of the Albanian clan Kapit. There will also be one more Albanian subclade of clan Bytyç, one Croatian-Bosnian subclade and one Albanian from Mat will probably remain R-BY38894*.
    - Sample YF64728, an Albanian of clan Shkrel, is BY3884-. In addition, he seems to share at least one SNP, BY147912, with the Greek sample who is also BY38894-. We know the Greek sample has that 392=12 & 393=11 haplotype, but the Albanian does not. This means all the 392=11 haplotypes must belong to a subbranch of BY147912, while the Albanian is on the other. This will be verified soon, when an Albanian 393=12 & 392=11 haplotype completes NGS testing. If YFull uses this SNP, the new R-Z2705 tree should look like this:

    R-Z2705
    BY147912
    Albania, Shkrel
    Greece (also Albania, N.Macedonia; Bulgaria; Serbia; Italy; Romania)
    BY38894
    Albania, Mat
    Montenegro, Piper
    Croatia & Bosnia
    Albania, Bytyç
    BY218801
    Bulgaria
    Albania, Kapit
    Y32147
    Branches all over the Balkans, highest concentration & density in Albanians.

    It should be noted that all the 393=12 haplotypes in Bulgaria and Romania also have 392=11, so they and the other 392=11 haplotypes from Albania, N.Macedonia, etc. should all be relatively closely related (maybe <1000 years). Meanwhile, there are tens of 393=12 & 392=/=11 haplotypes in Albanians, in N.Macedonia, Montenegro, Greece, Serbia and Sicily. If these changes are confirmed, the diversity of R-Z2705 would be firmly in the western part of the Balkans, and the MRCA should have lived there in Late Antiquity.

    The more distant origin (Classical Antiquity, early IA) remains unclear.

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    One more interesting haplotype from Italy, Ravenna:
    12 24 15 10 11-11 0 0 12 13 13 28 15 0 0 0 0 15 19 0 0 0 12 0 15 0 18 16 0 0 12 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 21 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 12 0 0 0 12 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 23 0 10

    Again, there is no guarantee that this is BY611+, but it is possible. Maybe at least one of these haplotypes we have brought here might end up being BY611+ after all. It is a very rare line outside of R-Z2705 though, clearly.

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    Map of possible R1b-BY611 and Z2705- results. Darker color = more likely to be BY611+ & Z2705-. This is just a low confidence interpretation based on 12-67 STR markers, but it still suggests a rough area where more interesting haplotypes could be found.

    [IMG][/IMG]

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