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Thread: R1b-BY611>Z2705: Origins and Expansion

  1. #76
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    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    I am opening this thread because this R1b-BY611>Z2705 has seen many changes recently and it's place of origin and subsequent expansion growing more and more interesting.

    The question I want to discuss is:
    Where did the ancestor of all Z2705 live?

    For anyone who hasn't followed the recent updates, I should mention that one important change was the discovery of one Albanian sample as negative to Y32147, which split the branch in two. Then a Greek sample joined him as Z2705* on YFull, but today it was noticed by admins of the Albanian and Serbian forums that the Greek sample was negative to BY38894. YFull does not have this SNP so this division does not show there. To sum up, we now have three branches under Z2705, let's call the branch where new the Greek sample belongs Z2705 (this has DYS393=12 & DYS392=11) and the branch where the new Albanian sample belongs BY38894* (this has DYS513=13).

    To answer the question, two things need to be addressed:
    1- The frequency and diversity of Z2705, and especially Z2705*, which is so far the earliest of several parallel branches to have split off from the rest.
    2- The possibility of even earlier splits based on unusual Z2705 or BY611 haplotypes.

    To me, it seems that the haplotype which is now Z2705* is more widespread in the western and central part of the Balkans: Albania, Greece, Serbia each have at least one confirmed case each, plus several of these haplotypes have been found in Albania from anonymous studies.

    Please keep both political and even historical references out of this thread: this is about genetics only. Thank you!
    Based on the latest dna results available now there are Albanian results in all the main subclades under Z2705.

  2. #77
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    Country: Albania



    I would say it belonged to one of the illyrian groups that survived early roman period and expanded - I would say it was mostly around bosnia/montenegro and moved south due to south slavic invasion where it survived mostly amongst albanians

    But we need ancient dna to confirm anything

  3. #78
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    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    I would say it belonged to one of the illyrian groups that survived early roman period and expanded - I would say it was mostly around bosnia/montenegro and moved south due to south slavic invasion where it survived mostly amongst albanians

    But we need ancient dna to confirm anything
    I agree that it has a bit of a northern tendency. But still because its one founder effect and because of this its hard to locate with certainty. ancient dna would be great though I suspect we might see other r1b, j2b2 and e-v13 before we see z2705. just a guess :)

    In any case is the most extreme examle of Arber demographic expansion in the early middle ages. Many other lines have the same trend but none so complete.

  4. #79
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    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    I would say it belonged to one of the illyrian groups that survived early roman period and expanded - I would say it was mostly around bosnia/montenegro and moved south due to south slavic invasion where it survived mostly amongst Albanians
    But we need ancient dna to confirm anything
    Neither Z2705 or J2b-ph1751 were present in Albania during the Romans.
    It's clear that they came much later. The People that came to Albanian had Both those patrimonial lineages and none of the rest found in Albania and were the forefathers of the Ghegs. Now whether they were Illirian speakers or spoke some other language we cant say for sure, but the Absence of all the haplogroups that are found across the Adriatic coast, tells us that they were probably from out of that region too, or very very very isolated.
    From the data of the Albanian Y-dna project seems that even in South Albania the carriers of those 2 lineages are mostly Muslims which would explain the presence of those lineages in south Albania too. They were probably the result of the Ottoman garrisons in the region that arrived from the north and would eventually become the ruling class of the Pashalik of Yannina. Being the Richest and most powerful Pashalik it would atract all sort of Merceneries in the next 150 years and most certainly Muslim Ghegs that would further increase the presence of those two haplogroups in the region. Ali Pasha was notorious for employing in his armies a myriad of different elements. Almost all Greek revolutionary leaders served in his courts as Armatoloi, including many Suliots (in his last days). French, Vlachs, Christian, Muslims, Tosk and Ghegs all served in his armies, but the main bulk of his forces were the Turcalbanians and those being Muslims had high presence of Ghegs mercenaries.Additional Gheg Mercenaries would resettle in the Pashalik of Yannina with the Greek revolution and the EArlier destruction of the Turcalbanians of Peloponnese from the father of the main military leader of the Greek revolution, Kolokotronis. Those that survived left Peloponnese with their families. Turkalbanians were send and settled in Peloponnese by the ottomans to pacify the region and prevent a new Venetian funded and armed revolt. It was a standard and favored practice of the Ottomans to use Muslim Albanian Mameluks/Mercenaries as Soldiers after Ottomans abandoned(out of fear of European interventions) the child harvesting and the forceful enslavement of Christians to serve as soldiers.

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