R1b-BY611>Z2705: Origins and Expansion

OK, with 67 STR's I have some strong SNP predictions for them:

1) They have dys572=10, modal for BY611, modal for both BY250 and Y5587 is dys572=11. This is a slow STR. They should be BY611+ (also based on dys385=11-11)

2) DYS446=14, modal for all Z2705 including dys392=11 is DYS446=15+, so they are Z2705- (or at least some other SNP at that level that the current samples are all positive on)
3) They lack DYS565=11 (modal for R-Y30192) so they are Y30192-.

4) DYS446=14 indicates they are CTS9219+ because up until Y5592* DYS446=13 is modal.

Italian and Croat share with American YF06082 DYS549=9-10 so they might form a clade with him.

So treviso Italian, Hungarian and Juran should be BY611+, Y30192-, Z2705-.

The only other CTS9219* with modal dys572=10 is some R-BY46965 but they have standard dys385=11/10-14 Swiss and french they are 14/67 but also have modals and old values of dys389i=14, dys464a=16, dys464cd=18-18, it's very unlikely they are of this clade.

Juran is 5/33 with Italian, sharing some like DYS549=9-10, dys439=11 so it seems they are related. Hungarian also shares with them dys464d=18 though he seems distant, still he also has STR's suggesting BY611+, Y30192-, Z2705-.

It seems you are of Illyrian ancestry if this is confirmed (and I cannot see how these are not BY611+, Y30192-, Z2705-, and very likely Juran alongside).

DYS446 does have some rare 14 values among Z2705+ samples. Check out the Greek project, for example. But I agree that it is a hint that these might have split earlier. For the rest of what you said, I agree, although STRs are never certain indicators for SNP positions in these clades, especially with so few BY611+ Z2705- samples.

I would say that among the known clades, the likeliest possibility is that they split Z2705, or are at least BY611. But they could also be a completely new clade somewhere under M269, that we have not discovered yet.
 
I took a closer look at the Italian haplotype today and possible classifications under BY250. If he happens to be BY250+, the most likely classification seems Y32821. Comparing only BY611 to Y32821, he has modal Y32821 values at DYS607 & DYS446, but modal BY611 at DYS437 & DYS456, in addition to DYS572 which Aspurg mentioned. It could still be either of them, or a completely new clade.

Another news from today is that there is a new haplotype from the region of Vlore with 393=12 & 392=11. In addition to having several offmodal values, he has a full 14/14 match with the Andon Poci Vlach haplotypes found in the Bosch study, which suggests that they might have been locals after all.
 
I took a closer look at the Italian haplotype today and possible classifications under BY250. If he happens to be BY250+, the most likely classification seems Y32821. Comparing only BY611 to Y32821, he has modal Y32821 values at DYS607 & DYS446, but modal BY611 at DYS437 & DYS456, in addition to DYS572 which Aspurg mentioned. It could still be either of them, or a completely new clade.

DYS607 is the main point in favor of BY250, however DYS607 doesn't seem that stable in R-Z2103. He does have a modal value at DYS446 for BY611 that are Z2705- because YF06082 also has DYS446=14. And as I've said it is modal for CTS9219 up until Z2705 level in BY611. And ofc DYS572 as a very slow STR seems to be a very good indicator of BY611+ (in addition to dys385). Also R-Y32821 has some specific off-modals at dys447, dys437, DYF406S1, DYS557 not shared by Italian nor by other BY250's. So especially considering these off-modals of R-Y32821 it is quite unlikely Italian is R-Y32821 (dys385b=11 would also have to be the oldest private mutation for R-Y32821 in such case, older than these others which is also in itself not likely statistically as randomly dys385 has only 20 % of chance of being oldest mutation against other 4 STR's, if any of these are older than dys385b it is automatically very unlikely that Italian is Y32821+). If I were to calculate chances between BY611 and R-Y32821 they would not be in Y32821's favor by a long way.:) I have to say it looks good for them being some more basal Balkan BY611 especially if Croat can be also confirmed as connected to these.. But hey you still need to get one of these confirmed and to do a BigY etc.. So good luck in that department..
 
If I were to calculate chances between BY611 and R-Y32821 they would not be in Y32821's favor by a long way.

If I had to pick something, I would also select BY611*, but you never know.

But hey you still need to get one of these confirmed and to do a BigY etc.. So good luck in that department..

I am trying :). It seems no one knows anyone related to either the Italian or the Croatian though.
 
Lutovci/Piperi are Y32147-, so Z2705* diversity in that broader area increases.
 
Yeah, as expected. Beyond me why the Serbian project was classifying them as Y32147+
 
Yeah, as expected. Beyond me why the Serbian project was classifying them as Y32147+

Based on similarity at 23 STR's I think. But that is always very problematic for Z2705 unless there are some good off-modals. I haven't really made a prediction because I never saw their haplotype at 37+ STR's, but Ownstyler was right that they will be Y32147-.
 
Based on similarity at 23 STR's I think. But that is always very problematic for Z2705 unless there are some good off-modals. I haven't really made a prediction because I never saw their haplotype at 37+ STR's, but Ownstyler was right that they will be Y32147-.

So what can be said now about Y32147?


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Lutovci/Piperi are Y32147-, so Z2705* diversity in that broader area increases.
Also debunks the theory that the R1b Kelmendi have an ancestral link to the Piperi-Lutovci. The R1b Kelmendi members are Y32147+ and likely Y32147>Y82919.
 
Based on similarity at 23 STR's I think. But that is always very problematic for Z2705 unless there are some good off-modals. I haven't really made a prediction because I never saw their haplotype at 37+ STR's, but Ownstyler was right that they will be Y32147-.

Yeah it is never 100% certain without SNPs. That is why we need to be conservative with classifications. I would have just classified him as R-Z2705 even though I believed he would end up as R-Z2705*. Anyway, it's great that it's clear now.
 
Some important developments have happened since the last time this thread was updated. Some of the news:

- A new subclade of R-BY611>Y32147 was created, BY126039, with one sample from Bulgaria (Pomak) and one from the Montenegro half of Sandzak.
- Several Y32147- BigY/NGS results were finally completed. There is already one Y32147- subclade defined by BY218801, which will soon include a cluster of the Albanian clan Kapit. There will also be one more Albanian subclade of clan Bytyç, one Croatian-Bosnian subclade and one Albanian from Mat will probably remain R-BY38894*.
- Sample YF64728, an Albanian of clan Shkrel, is BY3884-. In addition, he seems to share at least one SNP, BY147912, with the Greek sample who is also BY38894-. We know the Greek sample has that 392=12 & 393=11 haplotype, but the Albanian does not. This means all the 392=11 haplotypes must belong to a subbranch of BY147912, while the Albanian is on the other. This will be verified soon, when an Albanian 393=12 & 392=11 haplotype completes NGS testing. If YFull uses this SNP, the new R-Z2705 tree should look like this:

R-Z2705
BY147912​
Albania, Shkrel​
Greece (also Albania, N.Macedonia; Bulgaria; Serbia; Italy; Romania)​
BY38894​
Albania, Mat​
Montenegro, Piper​
Croatia & Bosnia​
Albania, Bytyç​
BY218801​
Bulgaria​
Albania, Kapit​
Y32147​
Branches all over the Balkans, highest concentration & density in Albanians.​

It should be noted that all the 393=12 haplotypes in Bulgaria and Romania also have 392=11, so they and the other 392=11 haplotypes from Albania, N.Macedonia, etc. should all be relatively closely related (maybe <1000 years). Meanwhile, there are tens of 393=12 & 392=/=11 haplotypes in Albanians, in N.Macedonia, Montenegro, Greece, Serbia and Sicily. If these changes are confirmed, the diversity of R-Z2705 would be firmly in the western part of the Balkans, and the MRCA should have lived there in Late Antiquity.

The more distant origin (Classical Antiquity, early IA) remains unclear.
 
One more interesting haplotype from Italy, Ravenna:
12 24 15 10 11-11 0 0 12 13 13 28 15 0 0 0 0 15 19 0 0 0 12 0 15 0 18 16 0 0 12 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 21 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 12 0 0 0 12 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 23 0 10

Again, there is no guarantee that this is BY611+, but it is possible. Maybe at least one of these haplotypes we have brought here might end up being BY611+ after all. It is a very rare line outside of R-Z2705 though, clearly.
 
Map of possible R1b-BY611 and Z2705- results. Darker color = more likely to be BY611+ & Z2705-. This is just a low confidence interpretation based on 12-67 STR markers, but it still suggests a rough area where more interesting haplotypes could be found.

Possible-R-BY611.png
[/IMG]
 
Entire Z2705 is Albanian in origin. I mean formed 2700 ybp, TMRCA 1450 ybp. This young haplogroup with TMRCA 1450 ybp and its peak with respectively 15 percent at Albanians signals pretty strong Early Medieval Albanian origin.

So besides of 15 % of Albanians belonging to this young haplotype, we can usually also see it at Serbs, Montenegrins, and Bulgarians with previous Albanian origin. Also it can be seen in Croatia and Bosnia in parts of so called Krajina at Serbs with without doubt Albanian medieval origin.

As seen this haplotype is formed 2700 ybp, and its earlier splits with who it shares TMRCA in period of 3400 ybp are found in USA, Portugal, Italy, and Sardinia. Therefore we can assume its with more distant Late Bronze Age Mediterranean origin.

I personally believe that this is haplotype that is direct descendent of Yamnaya culture inhabitants that brought Albanian (previously Illyrian) language as one of IE languages to the Balkan in the Bronze Age.
 
Hi. I recently formed a new branch BY199059 with Zrniq from Croatia and Grabezh from Bosnia. On the YFull tree i am marked as id:YF72187. The two formed a sub-branch R-BY200954. According to YFull, our common ancestor lived about 1000 years ago. Mr. Zrniq, editor of Serbian DNA Project and Poreklo.rs, believes that our ancestor lived over a thousand years ago. So far, this branch is only appearing in Bosnia and Croatia and Kosovo.

Some editors in forum Poreklo thought I would belong to a branch R-FT48939, to which the Piperi tribe near Moraca belongs. The thesis about the Albanian origin of our family has not yet fallen into oblivion.
 
I am opening this thread because this R1b-BY611>Z2705 has seen many changes recently and it's place of origin and subsequent expansion growing more and more interesting.

The question I want to discuss is:
Where did the ancestor of all Z2705 live?

For anyone who hasn't followed the recent updates, I should mention that one important change was the discovery of one Albanian sample as negative to Y32147, which split the branch in two. Then a Greek sample joined him as Z2705* on YFull, but today it was noticed by admins of the Albanian and Serbian forums that the Greek sample was negative to BY38894. YFull does not have this SNP so this division does not show there. To sum up, we now have three branches under Z2705, let's call the branch where new the Greek sample belongs Z2705 (this has DYS393=12 & DYS392=11) and the branch where the new Albanian sample belongs BY38894* (this has DYS513=13).

To answer the question, two things need to be addressed:
1- The frequency and diversity of Z2705, and especially Z2705*, which is so far the earliest of several parallel branches to have split off from the rest.
2- The possibility of even earlier splits based on unusual Z2705 or BY611 haplotypes.

To me, it seems that the haplotype which is now Z2705* is more widespread in the western and central part of the Balkans: Albania, Greece, Serbia each have at least one confirmed case each, plus several of these haplotypes have been found in Albania from anonymous studies.

Please keep both political and even historical references out of this thread: this is about genetics only. Thank you!

Based on the latest dna results available now there are Albanian results in all the main subclades under Z2705.
 
I would say it belonged to one of the illyrian groups that survived early roman period and expanded - I would say it was mostly around bosnia/montenegro and moved south due to south slavic invasion where it survived mostly amongst albanians

But we need ancient dna to confirm anything
 
I would say it belonged to one of the illyrian groups that survived early roman period and expanded - I would say it was mostly around bosnia/montenegro and moved south due to south slavic invasion where it survived mostly amongst albanians

But we need ancient dna to confirm anything

I agree that it has a bit of a northern tendency. But still because its one founder effect and because of this its hard to locate with certainty. ancient dna would be great though I suspect we might see other r1b, j2b2 and e-v13 before we see z2705. just a guess :)

In any case is the most extreme examle of Arber demographic expansion in the early middle ages. Many other lines have the same trend but none so complete.
 
I would say it belonged to one of the illyrian groups that survived early roman period and expanded - I would say it was mostly around bosnia/montenegro and moved south due to south slavic invasion where it survived mostly amongst Albanians
But we need ancient dna to confirm anything
Neither Z2705 or J2b-ph1751 were present in Albania during the Romans.
It's clear that they came much later. The People that came to Albanian had Both those patrimonial lineages and none of the rest found in Albania and were the forefathers of the Ghegs. Now whether they were Illirian speakers or spoke some other language we cant say for sure, but the Absence of all the haplogroups that are found across the Adriatic coast, tells us that they were probably from out of that region too, or very very very isolated.
From the data of the Albanian Y-dna project seems that even in South Albania the carriers of those 2 lineages are mostly Muslims which would explain the presence of those lineages in south Albania too. They were probably the result of the Ottoman garrisons in the region that arrived from the north and would eventually become the ruling class of the Pashalik of Yannina. Being the Richest and most powerful Pashalik it would atract all sort of Merceneries in the next 150 years and most certainly Muslim Ghegs that would further increase the presence of those two haplogroups in the region. Ali Pasha was notorious for employing in his armies a myriad of different elements. Almost all Greek revolutionary leaders served in his courts as Armatoloi, including many Suliots (in his last days). French, Vlachs, Christian, Muslims, Tosk and Ghegs all served in his armies, but the main bulk of his forces were the Turcalbanians and those being Muslims had high presence of Ghegs mercenaries.Additional Gheg Mercenaries would resettle in the Pashalik of Yannina with the Greek revolution and the EArlier destruction of the Turcalbanians of Peloponnese from the father of the main military leader of the Greek revolution, Kolokotronis. Those that survived left Peloponnese with their families. Turkalbanians were send and settled in Peloponnese by the ottomans to pacify the region and prevent a new Venetian funded and armed revolt. It was a standard and favored practice of the Ottomans to use Muslim Albanian Mameluks/Mercenaries as Soldiers after Ottomans abandoned(out of fear of European interventions) the child harvesting and the forceful enslavement of Christians to serve as soldiers.
 
Hi. I recently formed a new branch BY199059 with Zrniq from Croatia and Grabezh from Bosnia. On the YFull tree i am marked as id:YF72187. The two formed a sub-branch R-BY200954. According to YFull, our common ancestor lived about 1000 years ago. Mr. Zrniq, editor of Serbian DNA Project and Poreklo.rs, believes that our ancestor lived over a thousand years ago. So far, this branch is only appearing in Bosnia and Croatia and Kosovo.

Some editors in forum Poreklo thought I would belong to a branch R-FT48939, to which the Piperi tribe near Moraca belongs. The thesis about the Albanian origin of our family has not yet fallen into oblivion.


I have the same haplogroup branch - R-FT101356 also known as BY199059.
I am originally from northern Romania--- all may known paternal ancestors certainly from 1735 lived there in the same village where my father was born.My first ancestor had originaly the name VOLOSTYUK.
 

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