R1b-BY611>Z2705: Origins and Expansion

[Archetype0ne]

Neither Z2705 or J2b-ph1751 were present in Albania during the Romans.
It's clear that they came much later. The People that came to Albanian had Both those patrimonial lineages and none of the rest found in Albania and were the forefathers of the Ghegs. Now whether they were Illirian speakers or spoke some other language we cant say for sure, but the Absence of all the haplogroups that are found across the Adriatic coast, tells us that they were probably from out of that region too, or very very very isolated.
From the data of the Albanian Y-dna project seems that even in South Albania the carriers of those 2 lineages are mostly Muslims which would explain the presence of those lineages in south Albania too. They were probably the result of the Ottoman garrisons in the region that arrived from the north and would eventually become the ruling class of the Pashalik of Yannina. Being the Richest and most powerful Pashalik it would atract all sort of Merceneries in the next 150 years and most certainly Muslim Ghegs that would further increase the presence of those two haplogroups in the region. Ali Pasha was notorious for employing in his armies a myriad of different elements. Almost all Greek revolutionary leaders served in his courts as Armatoloi, including many Suliots (in his last days). French, Vlachs, Christian, Muslims, Tosk and Ghegs all served in his armies, but the main bulk of his forces were the Turcalbanians and those being Muslims had high presence of Ghegs mercenaries.Additional Gheg Mercenaries would resettle in the Pashalik of Yannina with the Greek revolution and the EArlier destruction of the Turcalbanians of Peloponnese from the father of the main military leader of the Greek revolution, Kolokotronis. Those that survived left Peloponnese with their families. Turkalbanians were send and settled in Peloponnese by the ottomans to pacify the region and prevent a new Venetian funded and armed revolt. It was a standard and favored practice of the Ottomans to use Muslim Albanian Mameluks/Mercenaries as Soldiers after Ottomans abandoned(out of fear of European interventions) the child harvesting and the forceful enslavement of Christians to serve as soldiers.

lol...

Do a DNA test man... since you are so interested in genetics, I am surprised 4 years in this site you still haven't tested yourself.
Also, read a paper or two before you write such nonsense, you are shaming your flag.

 

[gjergj]

It is true that BY200954 is the only clade under Z2705 that does not have in Yfull a known Albanian result. All other clades have. Some might be discovered in the future or it could be that this clade was Slavicized very early. In any case it does not change for the moment the fact that Z2705 is associated with the Albanian early Middle Age demographic expansion.



QUOTE=Beki;600486]Hi. I recently formed a new branch BY199059 with Zrniq from Croatia and Grabezh from Bosnia. On the YFull tree i am marked as id:YF72187. The two formed a sub-branch R-BY200954. According to YFull, our common ancestor lived about 1000 years ago. Mr. Zrniq, editor of Serbian DNA Project and Poreklo.rs, believes that our ancestor lived over a thousand years ago. So far, this branch is only appearing in Bosnia and Croatia and Kosovo.

Some editors in forum Poreklo thought I would belong to a branch R-FT48939, to which the Piperi tribe near Moraca belongs. The thesis about the Albanian origin of our family has not yet fallen into oblivion.[/QUOTE]

 

[Bezsera]

ruthenian ethnicity
on yfull i am YF89585-------R-BY199059

 

[Aspurg]

Congratulations on a new Bulgarian R-Z2705* result, another Dardanian (non-Illyrian/non-Thracian) speaking Bessian who stayed home.

 

[Emathia]

Albanians in Bulgaria

Some of the earliest Albanian settlers in modern Bulgaria were the Roman Catholic ore miners in Kopilovtsi, Montana Province, a village in the vicinity of the larger mining centre Chiprovtsi. Kopilovtsi was settled between the 15th and the 17th century; a Catholic church was built in the early 17th century. Unlike the Catholic population in other villages of the region, Kopilovtsi's residents were of Albanian origin. In 1626, the Archbishop of Bar Pjetër Mazreku claims that part of the Bulgarian Catholics are Albanians (Albanesi), Saxons and Paulicians. According to Bulgarian bishop Petar Bogdan, Kopilovtsi had 1,200 Catholics of Albanian origin who were still speaking the Albanian language in 1640. In another report from 1647, Petar Bogdan also lists 1,200 Albanian Catholics in Kopilovtsi, but notes that they have started using Slavic instead.

 

[broder]

Congratulations on a new Bulgarian R-Z2705* result, another Dardanian (non-Illyrian/non-Thracian) speaking Bessian who stayed home.

Dardanian speaking Bessian?


More like a Bulgarian speaking Albanian.

 

[Aspurg]

More like a Bulgarian speaking Albanian.

Where are his closer relatives among Albanians if he was an Albanian?

We already know there are Z2705 subclades who were assimilated into other ethnicities early.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY199059/

How how can claim this guy is an Albanian colonist at face value? Unless he is really from some Albanian-connected locality.

Dardanian speaking Bessian?

The only Paleobalkan people in Late Antiquity who are registered both archeologically and in inscriptions were the "Bessoi" who lived in SE Serbia, W.Bulgaria, NE Macedonia triangle.

In former Eastern Dardania.
As per Matzinger Albanian language
- is not Illyrian,
- is not Thracian, or Dacian
- any link with Messapian seems actually distant

Albanian has some Illyrian lexical influence, and this influence seems specifically Dardanian Illyrian, not Dalmatian Illyrian, not Albanian Illyrian, Dardanian.

And Nish and Shkupi developed following Albanian phonetic rules and they are in Eastern Dardania.

So Albanians lived in Late Antiquity and Early medieval times in (Eastern) Dardania not in Albania.

Papazoglu registered in this area other than Illyrian and Thracian names also names of "unknown" affinity which do not match up with anything (except Bryges, Paeonians in some cases)

Archeologically there lived some MBA locals, they include (original) Dardanians (of Troy) and Paeonians. So Albanian may well be descendant of such languages that survived Illyrian and Thracian domination and Romans.

Dentheletae tribe also lived in that area. Derite proposed that maybe they could have something to do etymologically with Albanian.

One Albanian popular name is Deda/Dede, Dida was a known Paeonian name. I remember Kelmendasi claiming Deda comes from Domenik, that does seem dubious.

 

[enter_tain]

And Nish and Shkupi developed following Albanian phonetic rules and they are in Eastern Dardania.

So Albanians lived in Late Antiquity and Early medieval times in (Eastern) Dardania not in Albania.

What kind of messed up logic is that? That's like saying "Northern Italy has Italian names. This means Italians only lived in Northern Italy and not Central/Southern Italy." This is the argument you're making.

I addressed this in the other thread, Nis/Skup was the border of the Albanian language, not its core. There are no other Albanian etymologies in that region. Nis was a Celtic colony and later Roman city. Albanians only occupied it prior to the Slavs.

Archeologically there lived some MBA locals, they include (original) Dardanians (of Troy) and Paeonians. So Albanian may well be descendant of such languages that survived Illyrian and Thracian domination and Romans.

There are no other such languages. You're making up ghost populations and fake migrations to fit your narrative. The Byzantine recorded everything. Sorry to break it to you but the "Arben" (whom the Romans called Albanoi and Greeks Abroi/Arbon) have been there for 2500 years.

 

[enter_tain]

I can't believe there's someone who still argues about "Paoenians" who died out before the time of Jesus, and were heavily Hellenized. This shows the amount of knowledge of some posters.

 

[Aspurg]

There are no other Albanian etymologies in that region. Nis was a Celtic colony and later Roman city.

There are no other undisputed Albanian etymologies anywhere.. And that's the point.

 

[enter_tain]

There are no other undisputed Albanian etymologies anywhere.. And that's the point.

The point is that we have Nis' original name/s. It was not Albanian. It was a Celto-Romanic city. That clearly proves Albanians did originate from there, but had invaded the city prior to Slavic.

Learn the difference between "expanding into a territory" and "originating from that territory".

 

[Johane Derite]

What kind of messed up logic is that? That's like saying "Northern Italy has Italian names. This means Italians only lived in Northern Italy and not Central/Southern Italy." This is the argument you're making.

No it is not, since the cities in the western balkans don't match the Albanian phonetic law while those in Nish, Shtip*, Sharr, do. It cannot be only the border, since Lezhe, Shkoder, Durres, etc, do not match a pre-roman Albanian accent.

There are no other such languages. You're making up ghost populations and fake migrations to fit your narrative. The Byzantine recorded everything. Sorry to break it to you but the "Arben" (whom the Romans called Albanoi and Greeks Abroi/Arbon) have been there for 2500 years.

Between the time of Ptolemy and Anna Komnena there is a 900 year gap in which we don't know anything about Albanopolis/Arbanon. We know barely anything about this period which seems to have been so "recorded" according to you.

Komani culture has already been proven to have had Asiatic people identified with Avars according to Archaeologist Will Bowden, so these narratives are debunked.

 

[enter_tain]

No it is not, since the cities in the western balkans don't match the Albanian phonetic law while those in Nish, Shkup, Sharr, do. It cannot be only the border, since Lezhe, Shkoder, Durres, etc, do not match a pre-roman Albanian accent.




Between the time of Ptolemy and Anna Komnena there is a 900 year gap in which we don't know anything about Albanopolis/Arbanon. We know barely anything about this period which seems to have been so "recorded" according to you.

Komani culture has already been proven to have had Asiatic people identified with Avars according to Archaeologist Will Bowden, so these narratives are debunked.

You realize it's been proven that Gheg/Tosk split in Albania happened before Slavic migrations? This is because Slavic words are not affected by the split. That means Albanian was spoken in that region (Your Asiatic Komani region) since antiquity and predates the Great Migrations. Do you know where the split happened? Right were the Albanoi lived.

In addition to that, here are Byzantines again, recording history

"John of Nikiû wrote in the 7th century CE about a people known as Arbanitai in the Greek translation of the manuscript, who have been identified as the same people as the Albanoi."

You have the Arben people being recorded in that region for 2500 years. There is a reason there are Doric words in Albanian. They bordered Doric speaking people. That wouldn't happen if they lived in Transylvannia or wherever the hell you put them.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

No it is not, since the cities in the western balkans don't match the Albanian phonetic law while those in Nish, Shkup, Sharr, do. It cannot be only the border, since Lezhe, Shkoder, Durres, etc, do not match a pre-roman Albanian accent.




Between the time of Ptolemy and Anna Komnena there is a 900 year gap in which we don't know anything about Albanopolis/Arbanon. We know barely anything about this period which seems to have been so "recorded" according to you.

Komani culture has already been proven to have had Asiatic people identified with Avars according to Archaeologist Will Bowden, so these narratives are debunked.

I don't know why you keep repeating this argument. Lezhe, Shkoder, Durres etc do match pre-Roman Albanian and this type of change has occurred in many words as it has with Nish, Shkup etc. And while inland Latin is strong in Albanian, it also shows some coastal Latin influence indicating a presence in both areas.

[FONT=&quot] It had already been answered by Cabej, who pointed out that the shift to 'h' belonged to a much earlier (pre-Roman) period of Albanian: 'Problem of Autochthony', p. 44. Schramm's case can be disproved by a series of Albanian borrowings from Latin, such as [/FONT]shkorse (rug) from scortea, shkendije (spark) from scantilla, shkemb (rock-formation) from scamnum, and shkop (staff) from scopae:

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

Where are his closer relatives among Albanians if he was an Albanian?

We already know there are Z2705 subclades who were assimilated into other ethnicities early.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY199059/

How how can claim this guy is an Albanian colonist at face value? Unless he is really from some Albanian-connected locality.




The only Paleobalkan people in Late Antiquity who are registered both archeologically and in inscriptions were the "Bessoi" who lived in SE Serbia, W.Bulgaria, NE Macedonia triangle.

In former Eastern Dardania.
As per Matzinger Albanian language
- is not Illyrian,
- is not Thracian, or Dacian
- any link with Messapian seems actually distant

Albanian has some Illyrian lexical influence, and this influence seems specifically Dardanian Illyrian, not Dalmatian Illyrian, not Albanian Illyrian, Dardanian.

And Nish and Shkupi developed following Albanian phonetic rules and they are in Eastern Dardania.

So Albanians lived in Late Antiquity and Early medieval times in (Eastern) Dardania not in Albania.

Papazoglu registered in this area other than Illyrian and Thracian names also names of "unknown" affinity which do not match up with anything (except Bryges, Paeonians in some cases)

Archeologically there lived some MBA locals, they include (original) Dardanians (of Troy) and Paeonians. So Albanian may well be descendant of such languages that survived Illyrian and Thracian domination and Romans.

Dentheletae tribe also lived in that area. Derite proposed that maybe they could have something to do etymologically with Albanian.

One Albanian popular name is Deda/Dede, Dida was a known Paeonian name. I remember Kelmendasi claiming Deda comes from Domenik, that does seem dubious.

Nothing suggests Eastern Dardania alone was an Albanian homeland or where the Albanian language supposedly survived, and I am from Kosovo. Large parts of Dardania was Romanized while Albanian language is believed to of survived in a mountain area as a result of contraction and isolation, not because proto-Albanians had never lived anywhere else but because what essentially survived out of Illyrians that did not become Romanized or Hellenized turned into Albanian, this naturally happened in a mountain area, away from the coast which was occupied by the Romans and away from main Roman roads and settlements and since most native words also refer to shepherding and mountains in the Albanian language. If Albanians had a presence in Dardania there it was especially in the Western parts of Dardania where they were exposed to Eastern Latin and the mountains of Northern Albania / Montenegro . Dardanians were of course Illyrians as mentioned by Strabo.

Matzinger is a guy that has made claims without absolutely any evidence. There is too little of Illyrian to even make such conclusions.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

You realize it's been proven that Gheg/Tosk split in Albania happened before Slavic migrations? This is because Slavic words are not affected by the split. That means Albanian was spoken in that region (Your Asiatic Komani region) since antiquity and predates the Great Migrations. Do you know where the split happened? Right were the Albanoi lived.

In addition to that, here are Byzantines again, recording history

"John of Nikiû wrote in the 7th century CE about a people known as Arbanitai in the Greek translation of the manuscript, who have been identified as the same people as the Albanoi."

You have the Arben people being recorded in that region for 2500 years. There is a reason there are Doric words in Albanian. They bordered Doric speaking people. That wouldn't happen if they lived in Transylvannia or wherever the hell you put them.

Also not to mention Albanoi inscriptions have been found in Dardania or Northern Macedonia.

Slavs also picked up toponyms in Northern Albania from Albanian speakers. Not to mention toponyms outside such as 'Ulqin' from 'Ujk' possibly or Delmatae from 'Dele' .

Anyway, these people are driven entirely by agendas so just leave it.

Albanian matches Illyrian place names while it is not the case for Thracian or Dacian. That it is not Illyrian but related supposedly is nothing but a tin foil hat theory. Or that Illyrian Dardanian was different from other Illyrian there isn't sufficient evidence to even make such claims, we can clearly see lots of similar names and toponyms across Illyrian lands. One thing that comes to mind is the name 'Abroi' , Abri, or 'Arba' mentioned in Croatia.

 

[enter_tain]

Also not to mention Albanoi inscriptions have been found in Dardania or Northern Macedonia.

Slavs also picked up toponyms in Northern Albania from Albanian speakers.

Anyway, these people are driven entirely by agendas so just leave it.

I mean it's so god damn absurd. They're actually trying to convince people that "Shkodra" doesn't follow Albanian laws.

Scupi -> Shkupi follows Albanians laws

Scodra -> Shkodra doesn't

It's literally the exact same thing Same thing as school -> shkolle, scale -> shkalle. The "sk -> h" shift Matzinger talks about happened >3000 years ago, as even Messapian has that sk-> h shift, and Latin loans aren't affected by it.

I e-mailed Matzinger about it to point it out, and he still hasn't responded. Guess he needs those paycheques coming in.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

For example this is just a claim made by Noel Malcolm, even he who supports a supposed Dardanian origin puts it in the Western Balkans

[FONT=&quot]. The origins of the Albanians must be sought, therefore, on the Illyrian side of the divide - particularly in the mountains round Kosovo, in the Malesi, and in the tangle of mountains stretching north from there through Montenegro[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] It is, therefore, in the uplands of the Kosovo area (particularly, but not only, on the western side, including parts of Montenegro) that this Albanian-Vlach symbiosis probably developed[/FONT]

Most likely because the language survived through isolation and contraction:

[FONT=&quot]But if Illyrian survived as Albanian, it did so only by means of physical contraction, withdrawal and isolation, which naturally would have taken place in mountain terrain. This is why the purest element of Albanian vocabulary refers to mountains, high-altitude plants and shepherding: the point is not that the proto-Albanians had never lived any other sort of life, but that the only ones who survived as Albanian-speakers did so precisely because that was the sort of isolated and independent life they led, probably for several centuries. The Illyrians who lived on the coastal plains were Romanized, like the ones on the Dalmatian coast and indeed in most areas of Yugoslavia. By the time the Slavs began arriving in the sixth century, there were only scattered pockets of speakers of the old 'barbarian' languages left anywhere in the Balkans, and all of them were in mountainous regions.[/FONT]

Matzinger is the same guy who has changed his opinion dozzen of times, he went from copying the Bessi theory of Schramm to suddenly abandon it , and made some mistakes regarding Albanian and it's relationship to toponyms in Albania, which was also a copy paste of Schramm and which had already been addressed by other scholars. This is the guy that you're all looking up to. Some guy who has now created a tin foil hat theory claiming things about languages that we know so little of.

 

[enter_tain]

For example this is just a claim made by Noel Malcolm, even he who supports a supposed Dardanian origin puts it in the Western Balkans





Most likely because the language survived through isolation and contraction:



Matzinger is the same guy who has changed his opinion dozzen of times, he went from copying the Bessi theory of Schramm to suddenly abandon it , and made some mistakes regarding Albanian and it's relationship to toponyms in Albania, which was also a copy paste of Schramm and which had already been addressed by other scholars. This is the guy that you're all looking up to. Some guy who has now created a tin foil hat theory claiming things about languages that we know so little of.

I mean it's kinda hilarious if it wasn't sad. Every few years the guy completely contradicts himself, and comes up with some new b.s. Who are we supposed to believe 2008 Matzinger, 2018 Matzinger or 2021 Matzinger?

 

[Hawk]

If Matzinger is right on his assumptions from linguistic perspective, then high chances E-V13 Z5018 is the lineage which brought Proto-Albanoid originally.

This is simple Boolean logic.