R1b-BY611>Z2705: Origins and Expansion

[broder]

Where are his closer relatives among Albanians if he was an Albanian?

We already know there are Z2705 subclades who were assimilated into other ethnicities early.


How how can claim this guy is an Albanian colonist at face value? Unless he is really from some Albanian-connected locality.

It's pretty obvious by now that all the Z2705 linages in Bulgaria have expanded from the Albanian sphere. Same thing with that other linage you just referenced. You have to be pretty thick if you can't see that.

How are Bessi Dardanian, explain that to us first.

 

[Johane Derite]

I mean it's so god damn absurd. They're actually trying to convince people that "Shkodra" doesn't follow Albanian laws.

Scupi -> Shkupi follows Albanians laws

Scodra -> Shkodra doesn't

I wrote Shkup as a mistake, I meant Shtip:

 

[Johane Derite]

I mean it's so god damn absurd. They're actually trying to convince people that "Shkodra" doesn't follow Albanian laws.



It's literally the exact same thing Same thing as school -> shkolle, scale -> shkalle.

The "sk -> h" shift Matzinger talks about happened >3000 years ago, as even Messapian has that sk-> h shift, and Latin loans aren't affected by it.

I e-mailed Matzinger about it to point it out, and he still hasn't responded. Guess he needs those paycheques coming in.

Oh my god. You are literally spelling it out and not understanding it!

"Latin loans aren't affected by it."

Yes, exactly! That is why we know that Skodra -> Shkodra is a POST-Roman linguistic phenomenon in Albanian!

If proto-Albanian speakers had lived there before Roman entry, the /sk/ cluster would not have evolved the same way as words they learnt after meeting the Romans.

Skodra -> Shkodra is an Albanian accent, but it is a post-Roman accent, not an accent that would exist if they were there before Roman entry.

Of course he is not going to respond to you when you literally spell out the problem and still don't understand it.

 

[Aspurg]

I wrote Shkup as a mistake, I meant Shtip:

Indeed it is Shtip with Albanian root, I just checked linguist Loma where he mentioned it.

It's pretty obvious by now that all the Z2705 linages in Bulgaria have expanded from the Albanian sphere. Same thing with that other linage you just referenced. You have to be pretty thick if you can't see that.

How are Bessi Dardanian, explain that to us first.

For example there is a personal name occurring in Shtip in 3rd century AD (which has Albanian root) with direct parallels in Asia Minor Dardania from 4th century BC.
Together with that person a bunch of other people with non-Illyrian/Thracian names were recorded. Again some of which have paralles in Asia Minor.
One of them is even attested in a Denthelete person.

Surely this that one big family sports so many non-Illyrian/non-Thracian names indicates some non-Illyrian/non-Thracian population survived in Late Antiquity as well. And this population has parallels in Asia Minor names from Asia Minor Dardania and Phrygia. Indicating Balkan Dardanian/Brygian- Asia Minor Dardanian/Phrygian connections.

Bessi were at that time in that region. Originally they are from further East. Some of these people could have merged with them and that their language survived.

 

[enter_tain]

Oh my god. You are literally spelling it out and not understanding it!

"Latin loans aren't affected by it."

Yes, exactly! That is why we know that Skodra -> Shkodra is a POST-Roman linguistic phenomenon in Albanian!

If proto-Albanian speakers had lived there before Roman entry, the /sk/ cluster would not have evolved the same way as words they learnt after meeting the Romans.

Skodra -> Shkodra is an Albanian accent, but it is a post-Roman accent, not an accent that would exist if they were there before Roman entry.

Of course he is not going to respond to you when you literally spell out the problem and still don't understand it.

Genius, here you go. Native Albanian words that don't go sk -> h

• shkak from *skaka and PIE *skek
• shqyej from *skanja and PIE *sken-
• shqerr from *skera and PIE *skerH (related to English shear, and Lithuanian skirti)

By "Roman" I'm talking about the time period of the Roman Republic. The average person doesn't know where a word comes from. If it's entered a language, it will experience a shift.

"Scodra" was attested during the time of Roman Republic. All Albanians words that entered during that period become sk -> shk, not sk -> h. sk -> h is a very ancient change (Bronze Age), that also shows up in Messapian.

 

[Johane Derite]

Native Albanian words that don't go sk -> h

• shkak from *skaka and PIE *skek
• shqyej from *skanja and PIE *sken-
• shqerr from *skera and PIE *skerH (related to English shear, and Lithuanian skirti)

None of those are legitimate and are not accepted by linguists like Shumacher, Demiraj, Matzinger, etc. This sound law does not have exceptions. Random posts on witkionary by users with no sources or outdated 20th century sources are a joke.

All these supposed examples of indo european /sk/ not becoming /h/ are fraudulent. They are either loans or are not from the /sk/ cluster by a later compound is+k or something.

By "Roman" I'm talking about the time period of the Roman Republic. The average person doesn't know where a word comes from. If it's entered a language, it will experience a shift.

"Scodra" was attested during the time of Roman Republic. All Albanians words that entered during that period become sk -> shk, not sk -> h. sk -> h is a very ancient change (Bronze Age), that also shows up in Messapian.

Lol, the division for when those sound changes happen is not the Roman Republic. It is post Roman capture of the Balkans, post 167 BC. There were not latin loan words entering Albanian en masse before 167 BC.

Likewise, you have no idea what you are even discussing. You are saying this is a very "ancient change" but this change is not directly from sk -> h, but a sound change that would have happened step by step, but begun very long ago. Because it would have begun long ago, it is impossible that proto-Albanian could have had a toponym "Scodra" at so late a time as in the Roman Empire.

This is why Matzinger reconstructs what form it would have in Albanian if proto-Albanians had been living there before Roman conquest: *Hadër.

An example of IE sk becoming h in Albanian:

Proto-Indo-European. *ǵn̥h₃sḱéti.
↓
Early-Proto-Albanian. *ȷ́nākʰet
↓
Intermediate stage. *ɲɔxit
↓
Proto-Albanian. *ɲœx
↓
Old Alb. njeh
↓
Alb. njeh

 

[enter_tain]

None of those are legitimate and are not accepted by linguists like Shumacher, Demiraj, Matzinger, etc. This sound law does not have exceptions. Random posts on witkionary by users with no sources or outdated 20th century sources are a joke.

All these supposed examples of indo european /sk/ not becoming /h/ are fraudulent. They are either loans or are not from the /sk/ cluster by a later compound is+k or something.



Lol, the division for when those sound changes happen is not the Roman Republic. It is post Roman capture of the Balkans, post 167 BC. There were not latin loan words entering Albanian en masse before 167 BC.

Likewise, you have no idea what you are even discussing. You are saying this is a very "ancient change" but this change is not directly from sk -> h, but a sound change that would have happened step by step, but begun very long ago. Because it would have begun long ago, it is impossible that proto-Albanian could have had a toponym "Scodra" at so late a time as in the Roman Empire.

This is why Matzinger reconstructs what form it would have in Albanian if proto-Albanians had been living there before Roman conquest: *Hadër.

An example of IE sk becoming h in Albanian:

Proto-Indo-European. *ǵn̥h₃sḱéti.
↓
Early-Proto-Albanian. *ȷ́nākʰet
↓
Intermediate stage. *ɲɔxit
↓
Proto-Albanian. *ɲœx
↓
Old Alb. njeh
↓
Alb. njeh

So any linguistic work not done by Matzinger is fake? You are something else. Demiraj is literally the person who says Scodra -> Shkodra, and you are saying there are no serious scholars backing it.

What can I expect by someone who says Komani Culture is Asiatic? You are a blatant fraud who just copy pastes random garbage.

 

[Johane Derite]

Asiatic skulls found in the Komani culture, which Bowden and Buchet argue are Avar in origin. This alongside Avar grave goods also is evidence of Avars being present in the Komani culture.

Likewise, at least three different broad morphological groups were discovered in komani culture site in Lezha, further complicating the old Komani culture narrative of Illyrians simply becoming Albanians.

 

[enter_tain]

Asiatic skulls found in the Komani culture, which Bowden and Buchet argue are Avar in origin. This alongside Avar grave goods also is evidence of Avars being present in the Komani culture.

Likewise, at least three different broad morphological groups were discovered in komani culture site in Lezha, further complicating the old Komani culture narrative of Illyrians simply becoming Albanians.

This guy is going into "black people and Irish skulls are inferior" 19th century pseudo-science. I just literally told you, the Gheg/Tosk split predates Slavic invasions/Great Migrations. Albanians are 100% without a doubt living all throughout Albania at that point.

Don't mind me if I ignore you from now on. That Komani Asian comment shows you are nothing but an agenda-pushing clown.

 

[Archetype0ne]

I was intrigued at first. But reading that excerpt about Komani being Asiatic I find the evidence very weak.

Imagine 700 years from now, some archeologist from Ethiopia finds Italian bones in Ethiopia, and some local Ethiopians buried with a bowl of pasta.
Is Ethipoian culture Italian now?

Saying that as someone who has like 0.6%-1.8 Han according to quite a few calculators.

 

[Archetype0ne]

I was intrigued at first. But reading that excerpt about Komani being Asiatic I find the evidence very weak.

Imagine 700 years from now, some archeologist from Ethiopia finds Italian bones in Ethiopia, and some local Ethiopians buried with a bowl of pasta.
Is Ethipoian culture Italian now?

Saying that as someone who has like 0.6%-1.8 Han according to quite a few calculators.

Edit: The wildest part of that theory, some would have me believe that Avars, Cumans, Bulgars, Mongols etc would have raided the whole of Balkans pushing people from the East to the West. Yet Albanians would have postceded one of these groups in the same movement.
All of this, while supposedly kicking out peoples known for living on horses from hillside castles?
Gotta admit either people have a lot of fantasy. Or someone has not thought this through.

Edit: When you click reply with quote instead of edit...
Might as well use this edit for something: https://www.academia.edu/2267226/Th..._in_the_Ohrid-Struga_Valley_VII-VIII_century_ Quite a decent paper as far as summarizing the various theories.

 

[Johane Derite]

I was intrigued at first. But reading that excerpt about Komani being Asiatic I find the evidence very weak.

Imagine 700 years from now, some archeologist from Ethiopia finds Italian bones in Ethiopia, and some local Ethiopians buried with a bowl of pasta.
Is Ethipoian culture Italian now?

Saying that as someone who has like 0.6%-1.8 Han according to quite a few calculators.

The Komani culture is a very specific site, these samples come from Komani culture tombs. It is quite significant to find avars all the way up in the Albanian mountains in the Komani culture. It is relevant to know, is it not? Especially when they are buried with prestigous Avar grave goods, meaning they weren't just nobodies?

Especially when this culture is the crux of the argument for transition of local illyrians into Albanians, the presence of obvious migrants all the way from Asia obviously makes it more difficult to say for certain that this was a simple case of locals just retreating into the mountaints?

Likewise the presence of at least three different morphological groups makes it difficult also. Were all those groups proto-Albanian speakers, or only one?

 

[broder]

Bessi were at that time in that region. Originally they are from further East. Some of these people could have merged with them and that their language survived.

What sort of movie are you watching bro? Sounds science fiction to me lol

 

[torzio]

Oh my god. You are literally spelling it out and not understanding it!

"Latin loans aren't affected by it."

Yes, exactly! That is why we know that Skodra -> Shkodra is a POST-Roman linguistic phenomenon in Albanian!

If proto-Albanian speakers had lived there before Roman entry, the /sk/ cluster would not have evolved the same way as words they learnt after meeting the Romans.

Skodra -> Shkodra is an Albanian accent, but it is a post-Roman accent, not an accent that would exist if they were there before Roman entry.

Of course he is not going to respond to you when you literally spell out the problem and still don't understand it.

Original name was Scodra and it was the capital of the Illyrian tribe the Labeatae ...........founded 410BC as the Labeatae came down from modern north Bosnia

there is no K or H in the original name

SCODRA (ἡ Σκόδρα, Ptol. 2.16. (17.) § 12; Σκόδραι, Hierocl. p. 656: Eth. Scodrenses, Liv. 45.26), one of the more important towns of Roman Illyricum (Montenegro), the capital of the Labeates, seated at the southern extremity of the lake Labeatis, between two rivers, the Clausula on the E., and the Barbanna on the W. (Liv. 44.31), and at a distance of 17 miles from the sea-coast (Plin. Nat. 3.22. s. 26).

 

[enter_tain]

I was intrigued at first. But reading that excerpt about Komani being Asiatic I find the evidence very weak.

Imagine 700 years from now, some archeologist from Ethiopia finds Italian bones in Ethiopia, and some local Ethiopians buried with a bowl of pasta.
Is Ethipoian culture Italian now?

Saying that as someone who has like 0.6%-1.8 Han according to quite a few calculators.

The guy is obviously trying to push an agenda. I would ignore him.

For myself, I'll go with Albanoi Illyrians -> Albanians as there is a mountain of evidence proving this. He can go on a Scooby Do adventure with his boyfriend Matzinger chasing down ghost populations in Transylvania that apparently went unrecorded by all Byzantine authors.

 

[Archetype0ne]

I would try not to be rude to him. I am sure he has no agenda in this, and re reading what he wrote I might have misunderstood his thesis. Still 2/25 skulls having grave goods related to asiatic peoples, when it is regarded by various scholars on the Komani that the whole culture was dependent on Byzatium (Centered around Durrachium in a network of defensive hillfort settlements around via ignatia) really does the Komani = Asiatic culture theory no favors.

But on the other hand I think its important to keep in mind that Ethnicity might not have been a thing during this time. And as such it was far more fluid than even today. For reference, the term Illyrian meant a different thing in the Iron Age, a different thing in the Late Dark Ages, and likely means a different thing today. If we take its definition during the Iron Age or today, I would agree with you. But I think our ancestors might have abandoned the exonym Illyrian as it was adopted by the Slavic communities of Illyria(the region) during the great movement due to inhabiting that area, and being Illyrians for all intents and purposes to the Byzantine authorities. In fact I do believe as the principality of Arber succumbed to Ottomans, and the distinctions of otherness fluctuated from Religion (primary political tool during Byzantine / Roman times) to Language during the Slavic migration, that is when our endonym of Shqiptar took over the previous Arberesh. As anyone who could shqipton / speak Albanian became us, in contrast to whomever could not / them.

So in reality in my mind making the continuation from Illyrian to Macedonian / Epirote to Romanoi to Arber to Albanian/Shqiptar was always a case of preserving our otherness when it was neccesary/vital. The only difference would be that at certain points in time various culturally distinct "peoples" could have used such designations for the same purpose.



Certainly you could find slavs, germans, and what have you in major centers even in more remote areas, especially fortified hilltop towns along major highways such as via Egnatia.

 

[Johane Derite]

I would try not to be rude to him. I am sure he has no agenda in this, and re reading what he wrote I might have misunderstood his thesis. Still 2/25 skulls having grave goods related to asiatic peoples, when it is regarded by various scholars on the Komani that the whole culture was dependent on Byzatium (Centered around Durrachium in a network of defensive hillfort settlements around via ignatia) really does the Komani = Asiatic culture theory no favors.
But on the other hand I think its important to keep in mind that Ethnicity might not have been a thing during this time. And as such it was far more fluid than even today. For reference, the term Illyrian meant a different thing in the Iron Age, a different thing in the Late Dark Ages, and likely means a different thing today. If we take its definition during the Iron Age or today, I would agree with you. But I think our ancestors might have abandoned the exonym Illyrian as it was adopted by the Slavic communities of Illyria(the region) during the great movement due to inhabiting that area, and being Illyrians for all intents and purposes to the Byzantine authorities. In fact I do believe as the principality of Arber succumbed to Ottomans, and the distinctions of otherness fluctuated from Religion (primary political tool during Byzantine / Roman times) to Language during the Slavic migration, that is when our endonym of Shqiptar took over the previous Arberesh. As anyone who could shqipton / speak Albanian became us, in contrast to whomever could not / them.
So in reality in my mind making the continuation from Illyrian to Macedonian / Epirote to Romanoi to Arber to Albanian/Shqiptar was always a case of preserving our otherness when it was neccesary/vital. The only difference would be that at certain points in time various culturally distinct "peoples" could have used such designations for the same purpose.
Certainly you could find slavs, germans, and what have you in major centers even in more remote areas, especially fortified hilltop towns along major highways such as via Egnatia.

Neither the authors nor I are claiming that Komani was an asiatic culture. But there is evidence of migratory populations living in Koman, which makes the old communist narrarive of Koman defunct.

This opens up the space the proto-Albanians could have migrated into Komani culture for example

 

[Archetype0ne]

Neither the authors nor I are claiming that Komani was an asiatic culture. But there is evidence of migratory populations living in Koman, which makes the old communist narrarive of Koman defunct.

This opens up the space the proto-Albanians could have migrated into Komani culture for example

Anything is possible. But given the map of Komani culture in relation to Illyrian settlements I find it highly doubtful.
The good news is it can easily be tested, given the bones should be in good enough shape for WGS.
The more I think it through, the less likely it seems though.

We are talking about these areas after all. I doubt I have to remind you about the genetics of Malësia.

The article I shared earlier is quite a good read and indirectly provides many reasons why this approaches impossibility.

 

[Johane Derite]

Anything is possible. But given the map of Komani culture in relation to Illyrian settlements I find it highly doubtful.
The good news is it can easily be tested, given the bones should be in good enough shape for WGS.
The more I think it through, the less likely it seems though.

We are talking about these areas after all. I doubt I have to remind you about the genetics of Malësia.

The article I shared earlier is quite a good read and indirectly provides many reasons why this approaches impossibility.

Notice on the map there that Lissus is marked as a "grand necropolis".

Now go back to the quote from Bowden's paper about 150 skeletons being analysed from Lezha's Komani culture site and at least three morphological groups discovered.

Next, notice how Komani sites seem to correspond also with preservation of Latin toponyms, not just Illyrian cities.

Next, go back yet again to the paper by Bowden and notice how among the skeletons, many were very young (high number of 15 - 19 year olds) and coincided with new grave goods, these features suggesting migratory populations.

So what can we speculate from this situation:

Were these migratory populations early slavs? It seems unlikely given that there is a negative correlation with slavic toponyms comparatively in these regions.

Who continued the latin toponyms in this region? A latinised Illyrian populace?

Were those young and poor migrants proto-Albanians? Would that explain why Albanian accent rules for these regions are post-roman?

Lots to speculate, im sure these medieval samples will be dna tested in time.