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Thread: Prehistoric migrations shaped Corsican Y-chromosome

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    I don't understand your post. What do you know about the Y-DNA of ancient Libyans or Ligurians?
    Do we have ancient dna of the Ligures yet? No, but we have ancient dna from neighboring areas, i.e. Bell Beakers of Parma, and it's R1b. We also do have ancient y dna and autosomal results for Ancient North Africans, and there is NO correlation with the people of the Mediterranean coast of southern Europe other than some shared farmer ancestry. The yDna is E-M78, but NOT E-V13. We probably got that from the Greeks. Unless the Greeks came from Libya too?

    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/...ncient-culture
    https://www.mpg.de/11978445/genomic-...s-from-morocco

    We discussed it all extensively here:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...rican+genetics

    EVERYTHING else about the Ligures, their culture, artifacts, their spread in Europe, indicates that they came from Central Europe, or, let's say, a lot of their ancestry did.

    Since you're fond of relying on the ancient writers, you might want to take a look at Strabo on Geography, book 2, chapter 5, section 28. Seneca also opines on them.

    The only thing you have for your idea that they are Libyans is your confusion because one Ligure tribe has a name similar to that of the Libyans. Some research on these people would have cleared up your confusion.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Lack of money and other reasons, I suppose. Indeed, these samples are all from areas that were important as Etruscan sites, and were collected for their isolation. It's not a coincidence that in this paper among the authors are also mentioned Di Gaetano and Piazza. Piazza is a very influential geneticist, and, concedimi di essere tranchant, not for the academic authoritativeness but because he has been for a long time the chairman of most powerful Italian private foundation focused on genomic research and established by one of the main Italian banks. Almost all the latest researches on the genome of Italians (Di Gaetano, Fiorito, Sazzini ....) are funded by this foundation. And Piazza as geneticist is one of the proponents of the theory of eastern origin of the Etruscans based on the distribution of mtDNA in modern samples, along with Torroni, Semino and others. This theory based on findings on modern samples for many other scholars does not prove anything. Moreover, Piazza's theory has been several times debunked by the researches of the other group of Italian geneticists led by Barbujani, who, unlike Piazza and his collaborators, really analyzed ancient Etruscan samples. Piazza has all the interest, as long as he is influential, to keep the narrative that their findings are still valid. So I suppose these three samples from Volterra, Murlo and Casentino, will still be long used to represent all the Tuscans. At this point I believe that at least a part of these samples is also used in the researches of Di Gaetano, Fiorito and perhaps even partly in the study of Sazzini. If you read the researches, for example, of Fiorito, or the last of Viola Grugni, one understands perfectly the state of subjection in which young Italian geneticists are forced to work.
    It is time to overcome this old and obsolete approach of examining distribution of Y-DNA and mtDNA, as you say, to elucidate ancient migrations. And it's time to focus in the analysis of ancient samples. Only a very large number of Etruscan samples - and this applies to any pre-Roman civilization - will help us to understand who they were and where they came from and what prehistorical layers they were made of.
    Just to be more explicit about which types of huge mistakes the observation of Y-DNA and mtDNA in the modern population may provoke. 11 years ago Piazza basically stated that G2*- P15, J2a1b*-M67, E3b1-M78, and K2-M70 (renamed T1a-M70) were signal of recent Middle Eastern ancestry and therefore typical Etruscan haplogroups. Today we know that those haplogroups exist everywhere in Italy and in southern Europe (and also in the rest of Europe), and that they can certainly not be considered as exclusively Etruscan haplogroups, and in most cases arrived with the Neolithic revolution and Chalcolithic migrations.
    G2a in ancient tuscany and now in this Corsica paper is G2a-L497 ........it is from Tyrol Austria as per this paper
    http://www.blutspendezuerich.ch/Medi...20G%282%29.pdf
    with this....one can even say.....Rhaetians = Tyrolese , tyrolese have G2a-L497 , same as "ancient etruscans" in volterra ( 2017 paper )
    .
    There are many assumptions......equal split between true and not
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    The bulk of the T1a-M70 are ( if the STR are correct )
    ArchiveYFull Y-SNPsNews SEARCH
    K-M9
    LT-L298
    T
    T-L206
    T-M70
    T-L162
    T-L208
    T-CTS11451 * PF5520formed 8800 ybp, TMRCA 8800 ybpinfo
    .
    .
    the other are T1a3-Y11151......no T1a2-L131 was found in this study
    .
    from 2015 for Tuscany the three branches are all noted
    La Spezia T1a1 - CTS11451
    Siena T1a2-L131
    Siena T1a3 Y11151

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    https://www.persee.fr/doc/bspf_0249-...num_98_1_12442

    Les influences italiques dans la céramique de l'Age du Bronze de la Corse. F.Lorenzi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    https://www.persee.fr/doc/bspf_0249-...num_98_1_12442

    Les influences italiques dans la céramique de l'Age du Bronze de la Corse. F.Lorenzi

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    thanks
    .
    anything of the Vanaceni or Venacini in italian.
    .
    The most northerly promontory is occupied by the Vanaceni; next to whom come the Cilebensii, then the Licnini, Macrini, Opini, Simbri, and Comaceni, and furthest to the S. the Subasani”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Lybians is a synonym of Punics

    Bronze Age Corsicans used Northern Italian influenced material culture (Polada) and later Central Italian (Appenninic), this could be the reason of the high R1b U152 frequency there...no idea about R1b U106, they think that it was already there in the Bronze Age too but i doubt

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    Pausanias uses that term for a population distinct than those he calls Iberians, those he calls Hellenes, those he calls Carthaginians and those he calls Trojans etc. (he says though that Carthaginians used Iberian and 'Libyan' mercenaries, that's probably the reason we shouldn't expect significant Phoenician proper admixture in Sardinia)

    Well, I don't associate R1b with proto-Indo-Europeans. For example, concerning Torrean civilization I would consider a scenario where the natives (pre-BA menhir builders) were R1b-U106 and the intrusive element belonged to G-L91, for example. (The reality would have been certainly more complex, that means possibly more haplogroups involved at least)


    That study says
    Sub-clade R1b1a1a2a1a2b-U152 predominated in North Corsica whereas R1b1a1a2a1a1-U106 was present in South Corsica. Both SNPs display clinal distributions of frequency variation in Europe, the U152 branch being most frequent in Switzerland, Italy, France and Western Poland. Calibrated branch lengths from whole Y chromosome sequencing [44,45] and ancient DNA studies [46] both indicated that R1a and R1b diversification began relatively recently, about 5 Kya, consistent with Bronze Age and Copper Age demographic expansion. TMRCA estimations are concordant with such expansion in Corsica.
    So, they cite Haak, Lazaridis etc to support that 'R1a and R1b diversification began relatively recently' but, really, I am not sure if "TMRCA estimations are concordant with such expansion in Corsica." This is not how I see it but I can be wrong. I may have understood something wrong. I don't know.



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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    Pausanias uses that term for a population distinct than those he calls Iberians, those he calls Hellenes, those he calls Carthaginians and those he calls Trojans etc. (he says though that Carthaginians used Iberian and 'Libyan' mercenaries, that's probably the reason we shouldn't expect significant Phoenician proper admixture in Sardinia)

    Well, I don't associate R1b with proto-Indo-Europeans. For example, concerning Torrean civilization I would consider a scenario where the natives (pre-BA menhir builders) were R1b-U106 and the intrusive element belonged to G-L91, for example. (The reality would have been certainly more complex, that means possibly more haplogroups involved at least)


    That study says


    So, they cite Haak, Lazaridis etc to support that 'R1a and R1b diversification began relatively recently' but, really, I am not sure if "TMRCA estimations are concordant with such expansion in Corsica." This is not how I see it but I can be wrong. I may have understood something wrong. I don't know.


    the TMRCA of each Haplogroup mapped is not an indication of when it arrived in Corsica, but when that marker formed ...most likely elsewhere

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    Corsica had not Beakers (except a fragment in the South) so the R1b intrusion must be a Bronze Age thing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    the TMRCA of each Haplogroup mapped is not an indication of when it arrived in Corsica, but when that marker formed ...most likely elsewhere
    edit
    or maybe it is when they arrived
    the T are
    CTS11451 and as per the new ( now ) Yfull v 6.04
    T-CTS11451 * PF5520formed 8800 ybp, TMRCA 8800 ybp
    .
    which fits close enough to TMRCA of the T-M70 noted on the map.......................if this system is correct , then haplo T is the oldest on the island as per this paper

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    I wonder if bronze age Corsicans were closer to Sardinians than modern Corsicans are. The Corsi were a tribe who lived in Southern Corsica and North Eastern Sardinia during roman times, and the Romans had to deal with their frequent rebellions. During the Middle bronze age some constructions similar to the more rudimentary forms of nuraghi (like those in the upper row) were developed in Southern Corsica, however they never evolved into the evolved type of nuraghi (tholos nuraghi and complex tholos nuraghi) which were built in Sardinia during the recent bronze age, and neither did the bronze age Corsicans build other structures similar to those of the nuragics like the holy well and spring temples (recent and final bronze age), megaron temples (recent and final bronze age), antis temples (recent and final bronze age) or the ritual fountains and pools (recent/final bronze age), their burials however were similar to some of those used in North-Eastern Sardinia (tafoni), but they lacked the monumental giants' tombs that were present all over Sardinia since the early/middle bronze and throughout the recent bronze age. When talking about the Corsi ancient authors would say they were related to the Ligurians, an interesting account also reports that it was the Corsi who founded Populonia. Some other differences I can think of: while in Sardinia thousands of nuragic bronze sculptures were found (final bronze age/early iron age) I don't recall any being found in Corsica, but I have to say that some nuragic votive bronzes were found there however, like the typical bronze quivers as well as some more practical bronze objects like the nuragic double axes. Another difference is the construction of large sanctuaries in late bronze age Sardinia which are absent in Corsica.
    Last edited by Pygmalion; 04-08-18 at 19:47.

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    I don't think that coastal Sardinians are much different from Corsicans..someone should make a PCA with Corsicans and the Sardinian samples from Chiang...

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Well, there is a difference, but not a "huge" difference between the inhabitants of places near Ogliastra and the people of Cagliari on the coast, for example.

    "As an alternative visualization of pan-Mediterranean population structure, an analysisusing the ADMIXTURE software inferred four ancestral components, with one componentassociated primarily with Sardinians and Southern Europeans (“red”), and remainingcomponents corresponding to North African (“blue”), Middle East and Caucasus (“purple”), andNorthern Europeans (“green”) (Figure 4C; see Figure S3 for results at other values of K). TheArzana individuals contained 100% of this red component and Sardinians from Cagliaricontained 93% of this red component."
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...92148.full.pdf

    I'd be surprised if the northern part of Corsica was 93% of the "red" component (the Cagliari percentage), especially given their yDna profile. It's always been my impression that the settlement of these two islands was "predominantly" (not solely) from north to south if we're talking about large "folk" migrations.

    Now, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the southern tip of Corsica is more like the northern tip of Sardinia, but given that the language spoken in the northern tip of Sardinia is a Corsican dialect it would seem the influence went mainly from Corsica to Sardinia.

    Of course, to really answer these questions we need autosomal dna, which for some inexplicable reason they didn't do. You'd also have to include the Ligurians.

    It would be particularly interesting to get autosomal data on Corsicans from the most isolated mountain refuges, as was done for Sardinians and see the differences there, both between the refuge populations of Corsica and Sardinia, and the regional differences within Corsica itself.


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    The thing is, Corsica never really had a big population, so later migrations probably changed the DNA of its inhabitants a lot. While most people think of Sardinia as a scarcely populated island, during the bronze age it was actually densely populated if you put it into context, especially compared to most of Europe, by looking at the density of monuments and settlements built in the spawn of a few centuries you can get an idea, so the later migrations didn't affect the locals' DNA as much, one of the reason why it became scarcely populated later on might be malaria which became endemic by the punic era, and the most fertile places in Sardinia also happened to be filled with lagoons and swamps. This explains things a lot better than the "isolation" theory because throughout prehistory and ancient history Sardinia yields many more traces of exchange and interaction with foreigner cultures than Corsica does.

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    Their conclusion is that modern Corsicans are direct descendants of ancient Corsicans, more or less..i don't know why they didn't test at least 2 or 3 ancient individuals, how much does it cost?

    IMO the Bronze age R1b immigrants had a bigger impact in Corsica because it was smaller and less populated compared to Sardinia.

    South Corsicans seems different to Gallurese Sardinians regarding Y DNA frequencies. No idea how much "steppe admixture" South Corsicans have, Gallurese are 9% circa steppe plus some WHG and the rest the usual EEF

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    Their conclusions are worth nothing, since they seem to be based only on yDna. Even if they did an autosomal analysis they'd need an ancient Corsican genome to draw that conclusion.

    Sorry to say it about a paper that includes Roy King and Underhill, but it seems like work by shoemakers.

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    It would be interesting to know at least the autosomal make up of:

    The Mesolithic "Dame de Bonifacio"
    A Neolithic Corsican farmer
    A Bronze age Torrean

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    It would be interesting to know at least the autosomal make up of:

    The Mesolithic "Dame de Bonifacio"
    A Neolithic Corsican farmer
    A Bronze age Torrean

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    Indeed. Ancient samples are available. If that's beyond their capabilities (although you would think that Underhill and King could get access to a good ancient dna lab), then at least do a modern autosomal analysis and comparison. It's actually shameful that they would turn out a paper like this.

    At least, if you're going to do only a yDna analysis, resolve the damn samples as much as possible.

    I really don't like to attribute base motives to scholars, but papers like this make you wonder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    When are people going to stop placing so much emphasis on modern distributions of yDna to elucidate ancient migrations and to determine overall similarity between peoples? Doing that led people to believe for years that downstream R1b originated in western Europe, and that the first farmers to reach Europe were J2a.

    Just wait for the ancient dna to determine ancient migrations, and for overall similarity do a sophisticated autosomal analysis.

    Some other things to consider about Provence in relationship to all of this is the fact that both Corsica and Sardinia may have been settled initially from that area. The other is that Provence was heavily settled by the Romans, hence the name "Provence" or "Our Province". What I'd really like to see is an autosomal comparison of Provencals and the people of western Liguria right over the border. That's one of the reasons, apart from the Ligurian migrations to Corsica, that I don't understand why Ligurians weren't included in the analysis.
    J2 was found in LBK, but seems absent thus far in Mediterranean spread which was apparently first. J2 is one of those haplogroups that is very diverse in very small, distantly related clusters and doesn't appear to be spread in a star pattern (the major evidence against it being a PIE marker IMHO)

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    Pausanias uses that term for a population distinct than those he calls Iberians, those he calls Hellenes, those he calls Carthaginians and those he calls Trojans etc. (he says though that Carthaginians used Iberian and 'Libyan' mercenaries, that's probably the reason we shouldn't expect significant Phoenician proper admixture in Sardinia)

    Well, I don't associate R1b with proto-Indo-Europeans. For example, concerning Torrean civilization I would consider a scenario where the natives (pre-BA menhir builders) were R1b-U106 and the intrusive element belonged to G-L91, for example. (The reality would have been certainly more complex, that means possibly more haplogroups involved at least)


    That study says


    So, they cite Haak, Lazaridis etc to support that 'R1a and R1b diversification began relatively recently' but, really, I am not sure if "TMRCA estimations are concordant with such expansion in Corsica." This is not how I see it but I can be wrong. I may have understood something wrong. I don't know.


    Well of course R1b were the Indo-European speakers, but the R1a ones are likely the ones to actually spread to India.
    The dates in the study refer to the age of the branch, not the age in Corsica. A very subtle but large difference. The Corsica data appears to mostly be downstream of L51+, including a very large chunk of P312*(many are DF27 north-south haplotype) that is not even mentioned as important for some reason. U152 is the lion in the room as can be expected.

    The P312*aligns with southern France, and U152 may have arrived from Italy based on distribution, but who really knows the reality, or the impact various migrations have had on the island. It seems vastly different from Sardinia.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    J2 was found in LBK, but seems absent thus far in Mediterranean spread which was apparently first. J2 is one of those haplogroups that is very diverse in very small, distantly related clusters and doesn't appear to be spread in a star pattern (the major evidence against it being a PIE marker IMHO)
    you also have found in LBK sites are 1 x H ydna and 2 x T1a ydna and others , so it is not odd.
    The most likely scenario is most ydna haplogroups reached the atlantic ocean way way before neolithic times and some returned and headed back towards the east , the only odd marker is R1a which was very scarce in western europe until the bronze age

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    Sile, beside some old Y-C and Upper Paleo and Mesolothic Y-I2(a), we have to date very few if any other Y-haplo around Atlantic before the Neolithic, this one providing a lot of Y-G2a; or I missed something?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    We have NO ancient Corsicans DNA if I don't mistake. Concerning Y-R1b-S116/P312 maybe they were not all of them IE's? I doubt but who knows? But concerning Y-R1b-U106 I dont believe they came before Bronze, and I think rather they came very later in Corsica; it's true I' ve no proof, as others here. Concerning Y-R1b-U152, its presence in Corsica could be linked in my mind to Ligurians, before the Romans who surely send some of them; it deserves a subclades analysis. Concerning guessings about population density, I recall that the prominence of a male haplo is not a very good tool to measure it, as the founder effects and sexe unbalanced matings are in concurrence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Excellent example, Pax. With the benefit of hindsight, those conclusions are almost laughable. It would be very ironic indeed if the Etruscans do carry G2a dna, but it's the kind that came from Central Europe or conversely the kind that's been in Europe since the Neolithic. That's why I hope that the Reich Lab take a really wide spread number of samples for their paper on Italy, both geographically and chronologically.

    Given how wrong he was, you would think he would have learned his lesson, but apparently not.

    Honestly, I don't even know if I'll continue reading this paper. In this day and age this ridiculously low level of resolution on the y makes any conclusions extremely suspect.


    I hasten to add I have absolutely no problem with there having been a migration from Asia Minor to Central Italy in the first millennium BC. If it happened, it's basically the same ancestry as would have come in the Bronze Age, so ultimately it doesn't matter.

    It's important to get our facts straight, however, and in this case that requires lots of dna from the Etruscans and early Romans in comparison to prior populations.

    I'm also beyond tired of pointing out that whatever gene flow occurred hit all of southeastern Europe as well as Italy, and all the way to Spain and Portugal, even if it's possible it occurred at slightly different times.
    Very good observation. Look at this:
    This study included 321 samples typed for 92 Y-SNP
    How laughable. How much did they spend on this testing? A test from Ancestry.com has 1,681 Y-SNPs and would have given autosomal info. 23andMe would have been even better because of mtDNA.
    Administrator of the Young Family Project
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Sile, beside some old Y-C and Upper Paleo and Mesolothic Y-I2(a), we have to date very few if any other Y-haplo around Atlantic before the Neolithic, this one providing a lot of Y-G2a; or I missed something?
    We need to stop thinking of an east to west only migration like in the USA and their "oregon trail" scenarios .........the paper's STR's are in Error , the SNP are accurate, the dates on Corsica are accurate. In reference to G2a-L497 .....I linked the paper which refers to a tyrolese origin.....we also have a high % of R-U106 in Austria .......

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Their conclusion is that modern Corsicans are direct descendants of ancient Corsicans, more or less..i don't know why they didn't test at least 2 or 3 ancient individuals, how much does it cost?
    Maybe this study just wants to prove that Corsicans aren't related to Italians? A bit agenda-driven?


    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    South Corsicans seems different to Gallurese Sardinians regarding Y DNA frequencies. No idea how much "steppe admixture" South Corsicans have, Gallurese are 9% circa steppe plus some WHG and the rest the usual EEF

    Sardinians range from 0% steppe ancestry to 9%, but the Sardinian average seems closer to 2-4% of steppe. I think Corsicans have more steppe ancestry than Sardinians.


    Chiang 2016




    Compare Sardinians with other Europeans and Italians.

    French have 37.6% of steppe ancestry, Spanish_North has 32.6%, Tuscans have 27.2%, Bergamo has 25%, Spanish have 22.3%, Greeks have 20%, Albanians have 18.5%, Sardinians have 7.1%, Sicilians have 5.9%.

    LBK_EN (Early Neolithic) has already 10/20% of WHG.

    Haak 2015





    LBK_EN with some WHG (blue)


    Last edited by brick; 18-08-18 at 21:24.

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