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Thread: What is the earliest ancestral I1 sample?

  1. #26
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Yes, thank you :) I know all this. Sorry for derailing the thread, I didn't mean to go on a rant against Living DNA. I just wanted to tell Roy L Hanes he should take his DNA test with a large chunck of salt. I'm sure their product will be really good once they get a bigger database.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
    English, Scots, Irish
    Country: Canada



    I found all of the comments about Y-DNA very useful, but felt like adding a bit about LivingDNA's findings of my autosomal DNA.

    While I do not know much about DNA testing, I can trace most of my lineages back to the 1700s and some much further. The exceptions are all Irish which I only know from Canadian records and, with one exception, cannot trace them back much further than 1800.

    I chose Living DNA because of their British databanks and the report they sent me seems to match my (English/Scots/Irish) genealogy 85% to 90%. (This is a gut response, not an accurate measurement).

    Here are the Surprises:

    No Southern Irish DNA - though (2) I have a small cluster of families that came from Kildare in 1830, (2) my great great grandfather Garretty was born in Roscommon about 1846 (he left several written records and the year keeps changing) and (3) another Irish family with names most common in Tipperary came to New Brunswick in 1840. I can come up with explanations (maybe my Kildare families - Archbold, Dunn and Donnelly - were only in Kildare for a generation; maybe someone other than Michael Garretty was my ancestor's real father etc etc) but this starts sounding weak when you are talking about more than one lineage.

    These could be explained if traces of autosomal DNA can last for 600 to 900 years:
    1. 4.4% Scandinavian - can this still be lingering from the Vikings? Or Normans? Aside from that, I have to postulate that some unknown Scandinavian married into one of my Scots lines in the early 1700s.
    2. 3.8% East Anglian - One of my lineages is believed to have left Norfolk about 1344. Aside from that, the most probable explanation is someone from East Anglia went to Oxfordshire or Kent in the 1600s.

    I am also supposed to have a black ancestor named "Williams", who was a merchant on Jamaica or the west Indies. This story steps into history in New Brunswick where my ancestor Elisabeth Williams was born in 1775.
    1. the nice surprise, LivingDNA found 1.4% of my autosomal DNA is Welsh - It took awhile for the implications to dawn on me. Jamaica's free coloured class were largely the offspring of white fathers and black mothers. Williams is reputedly the third most common surname in Wales and many Welshman of that name emigrated to Jamaica.
    2. The puzzle - LivingDNA did not report any African DNA in me. Discussing this with a cousin, I found out that I was the 9th of Elisabeth Williams offspring to be tested. Traces of African DNA were found in five of us, but from very diverse places (Mali, Ghana, North Africa, "Africa South-Central Hunter-Gatherers"). Drawing up a couple of scenarios to explain how Williams could have such a diverse ancestry, I find it is quite possible the last "African" ancestor was born about 1700 and at the very latest she (his mother, who would have needed to marry a mullato ) was born in 1725. The rest need to be Jamaican.

    Overall, I am satisfied with the autosomal results.

    I would like to know if there is a place that does a more comprehensive job. (Especially for my wife, whose ancestry is central/south European.)
    Last edited by Roy L Hales; 14-09-18 at 19:43.

  3. #28
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    Aside from getting retested by another company, is there some place I can go to find out what specific mutations like "CTS9722/M5762" mean? (I'm interested in the genealogical rather than medical or genetic perspective)

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy L Hales View Post
    Aside from getting retested by another company, is there some place I can go to find out what specific mutations like "CTS9722/M5762" mean? (I'm interested in the genealogical rather than medical or genetic perspective)
    I can't think of any websites that tell you what these specific mutations mean, however there isn't really much medically in regards to these "mutations". What these mutations really mean is that there is a nucleotide mutation at a certain location, the nomenclature for a position varies between companies. So lets say someone is I-Z59+ the reference nucleotide for this location is "G" (guanine) however to test position for Z59+ the genotype must be "T" (thymine).

    The SNP names are just a way of keeping track of where these mutations occur in comparison to the reference genotypes.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    All ancient samples of I1, pre-I1 and post-I1 are important and should be followed and mapped out, it gives us an idea of the distribution of early I1. I-M253 seems to have gone through a bottleneck given that it is a fairly old clade (formed 27,500 ybp) with a TMRCA for descending clades at 4,600 ybp, and it is not known why the vast majority of I-M253 members are descended from I-DF29 (formed 4,600 ybp TMRCA 4,600 ybp).
    It is unfortunate that the list of ancient I1 (pre-I1) included is so small, however I forgot to add the other I1 individuals found in the Iceland study. I'll dig those individuals up and add them to the list.
    In regards to the LBK Hungary I-M253 sample the haplogroup prediction was based off of a single SNP M253, ISOGG defines I1 by a lot more than M253, so the LBK Hungary I1 may not even be a fully legitimate I1 if he was only positive for M253 and not much else. This is why shorthand names are important for haplogroup designation I-M253 instead of I1, keeps things clearer especially when dealing with later haplogroups.
    This is an excellent point regarding the I-M253 Hungary sample. For me I1 is I-M253 + 308 other SNPs so if ancient dna is only tested for one of those 309 SNPs it’s a stretch to label it as I1. This Hungary sample is probably an extinct branch. I’m sure over time many samples that are extinct branches might be found dating back 27,000 years where only a few of these 309 SNPs are positive. When testing ancient dna it would be a lot more meaningful to me to know if the sample was positive or negative for I-DF29 making it more likely to be an extant branch.
    Last edited by mwauthy; 03-12-18 at 15:26. Reason: Typo

  6. #31
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    Not sure, but the oldest TMRCA of the living I1 members is ~3100 years iirc according to yFull.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy L Hales View Post
    Aside from getting retested by another company, is there some place I can go to find out what specific mutations like "CTS9722/M5762" mean? (I'm interested in the genealogical rather than medical or genetic perspective)
    There is an SNP index, that may be helpfull for you, try typing 'SNP Index- Google sheets' under images and you should come across it im not sure how to send links etc.

  8. #33
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 Z140 *Y6910
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1b1 Germanic-Baltic

    Ethnic group
    Baltic/German
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Ancient I1-M253 samples
    StoraFörvar11 5500-5250 BC Stora Förvar cave, Stora Karlsö Island Sweden SHG pre-I1-M253 (xL121)Skoglund 2014 (pre-I-M253xL121)
    BAB5 5300-4900 BC* Balatonszemes-Bagódomb Hungary LBKT_Neolithic I1-M253 Szécsényi-Nagy 2014 (I-M253)
    RISE179 2010-1776 BC Abekås I Sweden Nordic_LN I1-M253 Allentoft 2015 (I-M253)
    RISE207 1493-1302 BC Angmollan Sweden Nordic_BA I1-M253 Allentoft 2015 (I-M253)
    RISE210 1432-1292 BC Ängamöllan Sweden Nordic_BA I1-M253? Allentoft 2015 (I-M253)
    RISE175 1395-1132 BC Abekås I Sweden Nordic_BA I1-M253 Allentoft 2015 (I-M253)
    KO_55 100-300 AD Kowalewko Poland Wielbark_Culture I1a3a1a1a-M253>DF29>Z63>BY151>S2078>S2077>Y2245>L1237 Zenczak 2017 (I-L1237)
    NO3423 550-650 AD Norton on Tees Great Britain Anglo-Saxon I1-M253 Martiniano 2016 (I-M253)
    SZ45 600-650 AD Szolad Hungary Langobard I1a1b1-M253>DF29>Z2336>Z2337>L22 Amorim 2018
    (I-L22)
    ME_7 1000-1200 AD Markowice Poland Medieval I1a2a2a5-M253>DF29>Z58>Z59>Z2041>Z2040>Z382>Y5384 Zenczak 2017 (I-Y5384)
    SBT-A1 Medieval Iceland, I1a2a1a1a2-F2642
    ^ 75% Gaelic, 25% Norse
    Remains from Görzig (Saxony-Anhalt) date from the 4th and 5th centuries. Seven out of the 12 males were I-M253. No subclades given.
    Alemannic/Bavarian remains in Altenerding-Klettham in southern Germany, medieval remains, aDNA paper found male individual, a warrior, 60+ years old buried with spatha and other weaponry to belong to haplogroup I-M253. There were also elongated skulls in these graves. The women showed autosomal affinity with Ukrainians and Turks (Steppic), while the men showed Northern-Central European affinity (Germanic).
    The Bavarian guys seem to be a mixture of U106 (5 samples) and I1 (3 samples) and I2a (1 sample).
    AED249 is I1-L840 (I1-M253) (Baiuvarii)
    STR486 is I1-L840 (I1-M253) (Baiuvarii)
    STR241 is I1-L840 (I1-M253) (Baiuvarii)
    Good and thorough. Thank you.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizla View Post
    These are mutations. Each company or university that works with sequencing of human DNA name new SNP's (mutatations) that they discover with their initials and a number. SNP's begining with Y for instance is found by Yfull. SNP's begining with FT are found by familitytreeDNA. CTS are found by for Chris Tyler-Smith etc. For more see here for instance: https://isogg.org/tree/
    I think the numbers given are probably sequential, but only meaningful to the people who found the SNP.

    To be honest, there's not much you can use the data for. Living DNA is only able to tell you that you are I1. If you want to know which subclade you need to do deeper testing with another company. Living DNA seems to me to just test a random smear of known I1 mutations to be sure you are actually I1 - but it's not useful to place you anywere on the I1 tree.

    I also tested with living DNA, and I found the results to be completely unreliable rubbish. It said I was 63% brittish, which I can assure you I am absolutely not. I know all branches of all my families at least 4 generations back, but in most branches of my family I can follow my ancestors back much later. And I only have swedish, danish and german ancestors. How can I be 63% brittish? Ridiculous.
    IGENEA, Switzerland, was my original *Y-DNA test result, then, FamilyTreeDNA for SNP. IGENEA test was accurate then and still is...it’s on expensive side though.

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    Stora Förvar has just a few SNP's for I1, to little to be ancestral to I1.
    About the LBK I1 sample, very little is known, apart from being autosomal EEF.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky12 View Post
    Stora Förvar has just a few SNP's for I1, to little to be ancestral to I1.
    About the LBK I1 sample, very little is known, apart from being autosomal EEF.
    This is why we usually list BAB5 and SF11 (and now BAL051) as pre-I1. Pre-I1 does not necessarily mean they are ancestral to modern I1 it just means they are from the same lineage that broke off of I-M170 27,500ybp. The TMRCA of modern I1 is 4600ybp, so we're looking at a Bronze Age expansion.

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