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Thread: What is the earliest ancestral I1 sample?

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    What is the earliest ancestral I1 sample?

    What is the earliest ancestral I1 sample we know of?

    Both Stora Förvar 11 or LBK 2014 sample are not ancestral to modern I1, correct?

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    Stora Förvar has just a few SNP's for I1, to little to be ancestral to I1.
    About the LBK I1 sample, very little is known, apart from being autosomal EEF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Stora Förvar has just a few SNP's for I1, to little to be ancestral to I1.
    About the LBK I1 sample, very little is known, apart from being autosomal EEF.
    I am still, after 10 years of reading about I1, surprised by almost total lack of information concerning I1.
    Modern I1 is probably the most tested Y hg. there is, yet all the traces seem to vanish very quickly when nearing pre-history.

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    I should get my Big Y results in a week or two for my Father-in-law's big Y. Eventually I will test my husband and our two sons, just couldn't do them all at the same time. I wish there was more to read also.

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    after 15 ka all I turned into I2, and only 2xI1 untill 4.6 ka
    I1 is the only I subclade that could survive next to I2
    what happened 4.6 ka and where did I1 come from?

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    Mesolithic Scandinavia: zero I1
    Funnelbeaker: zero i1
    Pitted Ware: zero I1
    Unetice: zero I1
    Nordic Bronze Age: zero I1
    Corded Ware: zero I1

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    what happened 4.6 ka and where did I1 come from?
    Exactly! Would love to hear speculations about this.

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    4.6 ka is also the expansion time for R1b-U106 in the northern Netherlands - southern Baltic area
    R1b-U106 was a son of R1b-P312, so he had travelled a lot, his ancestors were from Central Europe

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Really? No Nordic Bronze Age and no Corded Ware?
    Thought RISE179, RISE207 and RISE175 are M253?

    There are no Funnelbeaker and no Mesolithic Samples from Netherlands and Northern Germany actually, perhaps it can be found there.

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    These are the only I's that I have


    Ulan IV, Russia-Male 3,940 I-S12195 T2a1a
    Tiszaszolos, Domahaza, Hungary 5650-5780 I-L68 R3
    Loschbour, Luxembourg 8,000 I--L460 U5b1a
    Ostergotland, Sweden 7,000 I-L460 U2e1
    Erd 4, Hungary
    2,000 I-L1228 T2b
    Apc-Berekalja I., Hungary 4950-5300 I-L1228 N1a
    Sweden 5,000 I-CTS772 U4d

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    My understanding is that I1a originated in Northern part of modern Germany or Southern Denmark and ‘moved’ to Sweden where Y6910 SNP is located. I1a got it’s start from a single boy...He had to be ‘saved’ by a ‘female genetic companion’ of R1b or R1a dominant in that area at that time, no?

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Ancient I1-M253 samples

    StoraFörvar11 5500-5250 BC Stora Förvar cave, Stora Karlsö Island Sweden SHG pre-I1-M253 (xL121)Skoglund 2014 (pre-I-M253xL121)

    BAB5 5300-4900 BC* Balatonszemes-Bagódomb Hungary LBKT_Neolithic I1-M253 Szécsényi-Nagy 2014 (I-M253)

    RISE179 2010-1776 BC Abekås I Sweden Nordic_LN I1-M253 Allentoft 2015 (I-M253)

    RISE207 1493-1302 BC Angmollan Sweden Nordic_BA I1-M253 Allentoft 2015 (I-M253)

    RISE210 1432-1292 BC Ängamöllan Sweden Nordic_BA I1-M253? Allentoft 2015 (I-M253)

    RISE175 1395-1132 BC Abekås I Sweden Nordic_BA I1-M253 Allentoft 2015 (I-M253)

    KO_55 100-300 AD Kowalewko Poland Wielbark_Culture I1a3a1a1a-M253>DF29>Z63>BY151>S2078>S2077>Y2245>L1237 Zenczak 2017 (I-L1237)

    NO3423 550-650 AD Norton on Tees Great Britain Anglo-Saxon I1-M253 Martiniano 2016 (I-M253)

    SZ45 600-650 AD Szolad Hungary Langobard I1a1b1-M253>DF29>Z2336>Z2337>L22 Amorim 2018
    (I-L22)

    ME_7 1000-1200 AD Markowice Poland Medieval I1a2a2a5-M253>DF29>Z58>Z59>Z2041>Z2040>Z382>Y5384 Zenczak 2017 (I-Y5384)

    SBT-A1 Medieval Iceland, I1a2a1a1a2-F2642
    ^ 75% Gaelic, 25% Norse

    Remains from Görzig (Saxony-Anhalt) date from the 4th and 5th centuries. Seven out of the 12 males were I-M253. No subclades given.

    Alemannic/Bavarian remains in Altenerding-Klettham in southern Germany, medieval remains, aDNA paper found male individual, a warrior, 60+ years old buried with spatha and other weaponry to belong to haplogroup I-M253. There were also elongated skulls in these graves. The women showed autosomal affinity with Ukrainians and Turks (Steppic), while the men showed Northern-Central European affinity (Germanic).

    The Bavarian guys seem to be a mixture of U106 (5 samples) and I1 (3 samples) and I2a (1 sample).

    AED249 is I1-L840 (I1-M253) (Baiuvarii)
    STR486 is I1-L840 (I1-M253) (Baiuvarii)
    STR241 is I1-L840 (I1-M253) (Baiuvarii)

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Ancient I1-M253 samples
    Thank you, excellent list!

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    Thank-you. I am new to this group. My paternal line is English as far back as I can trace through written records and my DNA is I1. As Living DNA's strongest matches to my DNA were Scandinavian (38%, Sweden; 32% Norway & Denmark) and there were actually more matches in France (17%) than England (15%), I suspect my ancestors were some of the Normans who entered England in the 11th century.

    Re whether Il was a founding DNA type in Sweden or came later (Corded Ware culture?) - I want to see the evidence. At the moment, I accept the idea that I1 appeared 20-27,000 years ago and we were probably in the enclave of humans that were driven south to the Pyranee region by the last Ice Age.

    How seriously should I take a single find in Late Neolithic Hungary? Does that mean we did not come from Germany? Or Poland? Or the Steppes?

    How seriously should I take a pre-I1 from 5500-5250 BCE Sweden? (Can I rule it out as not being one of my lot, as I1 was already extant?)

    Should I assume that Il did not reach Sweden until 2,000 BCE - until I see evidence to the contrary?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roy L Hales View Post
    Thank-you. I am new to this group. My paternal line is English as far back as I can trace through written records and my DNA is I1. As Living DNA's strongest matches to my DNA were Scandinavian (38%, Sweden; 32% Norway & Denmark) and there were actually more matches in France (17%) than England (15%), I suspect my ancestors were some of the Normans who entered England in the 11th century.
    Re whether Il was a founding DNA type in Sweden or came later (Corded Ware culture?) - I want to see the evidence. At the moment, I accept the idea that I1 appeared 20-27,000 years ago and we were probably in the enclave of humans that were driven south to the Pyranee region by the last Ice Age.
    How seriously should I take a single find in Late Neolithic Hungary? Does that mean we did not come from Germany? Or Poland? Or the Steppes?
    How seriously should I take a pre-I1 from 5500-5250 BCE Sweden? (Can I rule it out as not being one of my lot, as I1 was already extant?)
    Should I assume that Il did not reach Sweden until 2,000 BCE - until I see evidence to the contrary?
    All ancient samples of I1, pre-I1 and post-I1 are important and should be followed and mapped out, it gives us an idea of the distribution of early I1. I-M253 seems to have gone through a bottleneck given that it is a fairly old clade (formed 27,500 ybp) with a TMRCA for descending clades at 4,600 ybp, and it is not known why the vast majority of I-M253 members are descended from I-DF29 (formed 4,600 ybp TMRCA 4,600 ybp).

    It is unfortunate that the list of ancient I1 (pre-I1) included is so small, however I forgot to add the other I1 individuals found in the Iceland study. I'll dig those individuals up and add them to the list.

    In regards to the LBK Hungary I-M253 sample the haplogroup prediction was based off of a single SNP M253, ISOGG defines I1 by a lot more than M253, so the LBK Hungary I1 may not even be a fully legitimate I1 if he was only positive for M253 and not much else. This is why shorthand names are important for haplogroup designation I-M253 instead of I1, keeps things clearer especially when dealing with later haplogroups.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    spruitean has supplied the evidence available at this time.

    The bottleneck situation is probably that a single I1 lineage was the only one to survive the Nordic bronze age expansion. The odds of digging up the paternal line of a single man makes it almost impossible to find through archaeology. What we know is that the I1 man had rapid successful expansion, about as fast as you can get. I think it likely that he "rode the wave" with U106 and M417 expansion in the area.

    I also tend to think that the BAB5 sample was the result of farmers mixing with native HGs. There may have been more I1 lines but one lucky lineage survived.
    Administrator of the Young Family Project
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Ancient I1-M253 samples
    StoraFörvar11 5500-5250 BC Stora Förvar cave, Stora Karlsö Island Sweden SHG pre-I1-M253 (xL121)Skoglund 2014 (pre-I-M253xL121)
    BAB5 5300-4900 BC* Balatonszemes-Bagódomb Hungary LBKT_Neolithic I1-M253 Szécsényi-Nagy 2014 (I-M253)
    RISE179 2010-1776 BC Abekås I Sweden Nordic_LN I1-M253 Allentoft 2015 (I-M253)
    RISE207 1493-1302 BC Angmollan Sweden Nordic_BA I1-M253 Allentoft 2015 (I-M253)
    RISE210 1432-1292 BC Ängamöllan Sweden Nordic_BA I1-M253? Allentoft 2015 (I-M253)
    RISE175 1395-1132 BC Abekås I Sweden Nordic_BA I1-M253 Allentoft 2015 (I-M253)
    KO_55 100-300 AD Kowalewko Poland Wielbark_Culture I1a3a1a1a-M253>DF29>Z63>BY151>S2078>S2077>Y2245>L1237 Zenczak 2017 (I-L1237)
    NO3423 550-650 AD Norton on Tees Great Britain Anglo-Saxon I1-M253 Martiniano 2016 (I-M253)
    SZ45 600-650 AD Szolad Hungary Langobard I1a1b1-M253>DF29>Z2336>Z2337>L22 Amorim 2018
    (I-L22)
    ME_7 1000-1200 AD Markowice Poland Medieval I1a2a2a5-M253>DF29>Z58>Z59>Z2041>Z2040>Z382>Y5384 Zenczak 2017 (I-Y5384)
    SBT-A1 Medieval Iceland, I1a2a1a1a2-F2642
    ^ 75% Gaelic, 25% Norse
    Remains from Görzig (Saxony-Anhalt) date from the 4th and 5th centuries. Seven out of the 12 males were I-M253. No subclades given.
    Alemannic/Bavarian remains in Altenerding-Klettham in southern Germany, medieval remains, aDNA paper found male individual, a warrior, 60+ years old buried with spatha and other weaponry to belong to haplogroup I-M253. There were also elongated skulls in these graves. The women showed autosomal affinity with Ukrainians and Turks (Steppic), while the men showed Northern-Central European affinity (Germanic).
    The Bavarian guys seem to be a mixture of U106 (5 samples) and I1 (3 samples) and I2a (1 sample).
    AED249 is I1-L840 (I1-M253) (Baiuvarii)
    STR486 is I1-L840 (I1-M253) (Baiuvarii)
    STR241 is I1-L840 (I1-M253) (Baiuvarii)
    I'd like to add these to the list from the Iceland Study:
    SBT-A1 Medieval Iceland, I1a2a1a2-F2642 ~75% Gaelic, ~25% Norse
    SVK-A1 Medieval Iceland, I1b-Z131 ~100% Norse
    SSG-A3 Medieval Iceland, I1-M253 ~50% Norse, ~50% Gaelic
    HSJ-A1 Medieval Iceland, I1a1b3b-L813 ~60% Norse, ~20% Gaelic
    SSJ-A2 Medieval Iceland, I1a1b3-Z74 ~90% Norse ~10% Gaelic
    DAV-A9 Medieval Iceland, I1-M253 ~100% Norse

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    What do all the equations Mean?

    The company that did my Y-DNA test says I am I1, with my strongest matches in Scandinavia, but the results also consist of pages of symbols.

    What do all the symbols mean? Which ones should I pay attention to? And why?

    AM00847/AMM008/B65
    AM01921.2/S475.2/Z2983.2

    CTS - I have dozens upon dozens of lines starting out with CTS10/Z2676 and ending with CTS9722/M5762

    F
    - starting with F1046/M3646/PF2610/YSC0001295 and ending with FI3/L756/PF3662/YSC0000284


    L - starting withL1009 and ending with L970/PF1065

    M
    - dozens on dozens, including what looks like my haplotype (M253) - but starting with M10372.1/ZS6696.1 and ending with M9406


    P
    - dozens upon dozens, starting with P105/P105 and ending PF7372 (Unless you count Page123/Page123/Z2763)


    S
    - starting with S107 and ending with SRY10831.1


    V
    - starting with V1423/Z2717 and ending V2264/Z2728


    Y
    - starting with YSC0000256.1/YSC0000256.2 and ending YSC0000301/Z2882


    Z
    - starting with Z11010 and ending with Z4145/Z4147

    Are the equations starting with an M haplotypes?
    Last edited by Roy L Hales; 17-08-18 at 18:30.

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    ^ Which company did you test with? Normally they will provide your haplogroup as for example, say you are a member of I1 but you are positive for the SNP Y13039 you will be labeled "I-Y13039".

    Did you test with 23andMe? Or Full Genome Corp? Or FTDNA?

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    I tested with Living DNA and am going back to ask them about this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy L Hales View Post
    I tested with Living DNA and am going back to ask them about this.
    LivingDNA should have your terminal haplogroup named somewhere in your profile. Basically what you've listed are not equations but SNPs (and there variant names).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy L Hales View Post
    The company that did my Y-DNA test says I am I1, with my strongest matches in Scandinavia, but the results also consist of pages of symbols.

    What do all the symbols mean? Which ones should I pay attention to? And why?

    AM00847/AMM008/B65
    AM01921.2/S475.2/Z2983.2

    CTS - I have dozens upon dozens of lines starting out with CTS10/Z2676 and ending with CTS9722/M5762

    F
    - starting with F1046/M3646/PF2610/YSC0001295 and ending with FI3/L756/PF3662/YSC0000284


    L - starting withL1009 and ending with L970/PF1065

    M
    - dozens on dozens, including what looks like my haplotype (M253) - but starting with M10372.1/ZS6696.1 and ending with M9406


    P
    - dozens upon dozens, starting with P105/P105 and ending PF7372 (Unless you count Page123/Page123/Z2763)


    S
    - starting with S107 and ending with SRY10831.1


    V
    - starting with V1423/Z2717 and ending V2264/Z2728


    Y
    - starting with YSC0000256.1/YSC0000256.2 and ending YSC0000301/Z2882


    Z
    - starting with Z11010 and ending with Z4145/Z4147

    Are the equations starting with an M haplotypes?
    These are mutations. Each company or university that works with sequencing of human DNA name new SNP's (mutatations) that they discover with their initials and a number. SNP's begining with Y for instance is found by Yfull. SNP's begining with FT are found by familitytreeDNA. CTS are found by for Chris Tyler-Smith etc. For more see here for instance: https://isogg.org/tree/
    I think the numbers given are probably sequential, but only meaningful to the people who found the SNP.

    To be honest, there's not much you can use the data for. Living DNA is only able to tell you that you are I1. If you want to know which subclade you need to do deeper testing with another company. Living DNA seems to me to just test a random smear of known I1 mutations to be sure you are actually I1 - but it's not useful to place you anywere on the I1 tree.

    I also tested with living DNA, and I found the results to be completely unreliable rubbish. It said I was 63% brittish, which I can assure you I am absolutely not. I know all branches of all my families at least 4 generations back, but in most branches of my family I can follow my ancestors back much later. And I only have swedish, danish and german ancestors. How can I be 63% brittish? Ridiculous.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizla View Post
    These are mutations. Each company or university that works with sequencing of human DNA name new SNP's (mutatations) that they discover with their initials and a number. SNP's begining with Y for instance is found by Yfull. SNP's begining with FT are found by familitytreeDNA. CTS are found by for Chris Tyler-Smith etc. For more see here for instance: https://isogg.org/tree/
    I think the numbers given are probably sequential, but only meaningful to the people who found the SNP.

    To be honest, there's not much you can use the data for. Living DNA is only able to tell you that you are I1. If you want to know which subclade you need to do deeper testing with another company. Living DNA seems to me to just test a random smear of known I1 mutations to be sure you are actually I1 - but it's not useful to place you anywere on the I1 tree.

    I also tested with living DNA, and I found the results to be completely unreliable rubbish. It said I was 63% brittish, which I can assure you I am absolutely not. I know all branches of all my families at least 4 generations back, but in most branches of my family I can follow my ancestors back much later. And I only have swedish, danish and german ancestors. How can I be 63% brittish? Ridiculous.
    LivingDNA started with the data from the POBI project (People of the British Isles). Until they expand their database, their algorithm "pulls" any genes common in England into an English category.

    That said, it's very difficult to separate English and German ancestry. I haven't seen a company that can do it reliably, which is why 23andMe stops at "northwest european."

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    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post

    That said, it's very difficult to separate English and German ancestry. I haven't seen a company that can do it reliably, which is why 23andMe stops at "northwest european."
    Yes, I'm sure. They also state this themselves as a caveat with the results. But when 23andme can't do it, then Living DNA shouldn't pretend that they can do it either. The results I got from them are clearly useless and unreliable. It's even worse with my girlfriends test. She's half danish and half scottish, and came out 99% "great britain and ireland". Thanks. That's just 99% completely useless information and a 100% waste of money.

    I would never recommend any one to waste their money with Living DNA, but instead use 23andme. I don't care about the reason when I feel ripped off.
    Last edited by Rizla; 25-08-18 at 11:14.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizla View Post
    Yes, I'm sure. They also state this themselves as a caveat with the results. But when 23andme can't do it, then Living DNA shouldn't pretend that they can do it either. The results I got from them are clearly useless and unreliable. It's even worse with my girlfriends test. She's half danish and half scottish, and came out 99% "great britain and ireland". Thanks. That's just 99% completely useless information and a 100% waste of money.
    I would never recommend any one to waste their money with Living DNA, but instead use 23andme. I don't care about the reason when I feel ripped off.
    I respect that you feel ripped off and I'm not posting a response to try and change your view however it should be noted that LivingDNA's original data source is based off of the POBI DNA study (People of the British Isles) which initially and currently still has a strong British bias, slowly they will be adding more data from other regions that have been included in the study.
    It is also worth noting that Danes and British people in general can be rather genetically similar with the Danes closest genetic neighbours in PCA charts being British groups BEFORE other Scandinavian groups.
    Britain shares part of its history with Denmark & the rest of Scandinavia what with Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes, Norwegians, etc all settling in Britain. There was even a "North Sea Empire" (under King Cnút and his relatives) which stretched from the northern border of England (pre-1066 borders) to Scandinavia.
    Again, I'm not mentioning this to try and sway your opinion. I understand why you feel ripped off, when a company is misleading and they offer no explanations or anything else it can be frustrating, to say the least.

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