6.5 ka Levantine chalcolithic DNA

[halfalp]

I have to say Lazaridis virtue signaling is pretty obvious this time, he cannot longer hide that he is pushing an agenda. Now he is aknowledging in his Twitter that Gamba and Mathiesen found Anatolian Farmers with blue eyes and him Minoan with blue eyes, and he dont say that Villabruna that predate all those people had blue eyes too. Look at how many black / white mulato in europe and north america have blue eyes, because their mothers where of european descent. People where exchanging from europe - anatolia and ultimately levant, before the neolithic even exist. What's the most funny, is that all those people have too high opinion of themselves, they think they do the right thing, being open minded, being a people of the world. The day all those papers gonna be interpret by Erdogan like Turkey is the birth place of " Aryans " because those liberals scientifics tried to do a good thing to shadowing europe and empowering other places in the world ( even if the real history is more complicate ).

[bicicleur]

I have to say Lazaridis virtue signaling is pretty obvious this time, he cannot longer hide that he is pushing an agenda. Now he is aknowledging in his Twitter that Gamba and Mathiesen found Anatolian Farmers with blue eyes and him Minoan with blue eyes, and he dont say that Villabruna that predate all those people had blue eyes too. Look at how many black / white mulato in europe and north america have blue eyes, because their mothers where of european descent. People where exchanging from europe - anatolia and ultimately levant, before the neolithic even exist. What's the most funny, is that all those people have too high opinion of themselves, they think they do the right thing, being open minded, being a people of the world. The day all those papers gonna be interpret by Erdogan like Turkey is the birth place of " Aryans " because those liberals scientifics tried to do a good thing to shadowing europe and empowering other places in the world ( even if the real history is more complicate ).

it is surprising to find people with blond hair and bleu eyes here
but I don't agree that intense mixing would have appeared in the middle east prior to the neolithic
the papers state that genetic distances between sperate pre-neolithic HG groups was as high as between modern Europeans and East Asians

on the other hand we have the paper about the Atlantic Scandinavian WHG who after admixing with EHG from Karelia were blond and blue-eyed too

now I also understand this :

Historical cultural perceptions
Ancient Greece



Most people in ancient Greece had dark hair and, as a result of this, the Greeks found blond hair immensely fascinating.[78] In the Homeric epics, Menelaus the king of the Spartans is, together with some other Achaean leaders, portrayed as blond.[79] Other blond characters in the Homeric poems are Peleus, Achilles, Meleager, Agamede, and Rhadamanthys.[79] Aphrodite, the Greek goddess of love and beauty, was often described as golden-haired and portrayed with this color hair in art.[80] Aphrodite's master epithet in the Homeric epics is Χρυσεη (Khryseē), which means "golden".[81] The traces of hair color on Greek korai probably reflect the colors the artists saw in natural hair;[82] these colors include a broad diversity of shades of blond, red, and brown.[82] The minority of statues with blond hair range from strawberry blond up to platinum blond.[82]

Sappho of Lesbos (c. 630-570 BC) wrote that purple-colored wraps as headdress were good enough, except if the hair was blond: "...for the girl who has hair that is yellower than a torch [it is better to decorate it] with wreaths of flowers in bloom."[83] Sappho also praises Aphrodite for her golden hair, stating that since gold metal is free from rust, the goddess's golden hair represents her freedom from ritual pollution.[81] Sappho's contemporary Alcman of Sparta praised golden hair as one of the most desirable qualities of a beautiful woman,[81] describing in various poems "the girl with the yellow hair" and a girl "with the hair like purest gold."[81]

In the fifth century BC, the sculptor Pheidias may have depicted the Greek goddess of wisdom Athena's hair using gold in his famous statue of Athena Parthenos, which was displayed inside the Parthenon.[84] The Greeks thought of the Thracians who lived to the north as having reddish-blond hair.[85] Because many Greek slaves were captured from Thrace, slaves were stereotyped as blond or red-headed.[85] "Xanthias" (Ξανθίας), meaning "reddish blond", was a common name for slaves in ancient Greece[85][86] and a slave by this name appears in many of the comedies of Aristophanes.[86]

The most famous statue of Aphrodite, the Aphrodite of Knidos, sculpted in the fourth century BC by Praxiteles, represented the goddess's hair using gold leaf[87] and contributed to the popularity of the image of Aphrodite as a blonde goddess.[88] Greek prostitutes frequently dyed their hair blond using saffron dyes or colored powders.[89] Blond dye was highly expensive, took great effort to apply, and smelled repugnant,[89] but none of these factors inhibited Greek prostitutes from dying their hair.[89] As a result of this and the natural rarity of blond hair in the Mediterranean region, by the fourth century BC, blond hair was inextricably associated with prostitutes.[89] The comic playwright Menander (c. 342/41 – c. 290 BC) protests that "no chaste woman ought to make her hair yellow."[89] At another point, he deplores blond hair dye as dangerous: "What can we women do wise or brilliant, who sit with hair dyed yellow, outraging the character of gentlewomen, causing the overthrow of houses, the ruin of nuptials, and accusations on the part of children?"[89] Historian and Egyptologist Joann Fletcher asserts that the Macedonian ruler Alexander the Great and members of the Macedonian-Greek Ptolemaic dynasty of Hellenistic Egypt had blond hair, such as Arsinoe II and Berenice II.[90] Historian Michael Grant notes that Ptolemy II Philadelphus, pharaoh and husband to queen Arsinoe II, also had blond hair.[91]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blond#Ancient_Greece

[davef]

I have to say Lazaridis virtue signaling is pretty obvious this time, he cannot longer hide that he is pushing an agenda. Now he is aknowledging in his Twitter that Gamba and Mathiesen found Anatolian Farmers with blue eyes and him Minoan with blue eyes, and he dont say that Villabruna that predate all those people had blue eyes too. Look at how many black / white mulato in europe and north america have blue eyes, because their mothers where of european descent. People where exchanging from europe - anatolia and ultimately levant, before the neolithic even exist. What's the most funny, is that all those people have too high opinion of themselves, they think they do the right thing, being open minded, being a people of the world. The day all those papers gonna be interpret by Erdogan like Turkey is the birth place of " Aryans " because those liberals scientifics tried to do a good thing to shadowing europe and empowering other places in the world ( even if the real history is more complicate ).

there aren't any western or eastern hunter gatherer samples that are genetically close to any Neolithic populations.

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

The blue eyes part is very interesting - does anybody know what the official best guess is atm?

[Angela]

It is a FACT, and a SURPRISING fact that Levant Chalcolithic has the blue eye snp at 50%. That is a substantial increase even from the levels found in the Anatolia Neolithic of about 25%.

Anyone reading a tweet from Lazaridis' account would be presumed to know the latter fact as well as the fact that the WHG were fixed for it. How someone could be so dense as to think Lazaridis is trying to "hide" that fact about the WHG is beyond me. He freaking REPORTED it in his own papers, but some of you apparently don't read papers. What VIRTUE there is in pointing this surprising fact out is also beyond me. Some of you reveal your prejudices so unknowingly. I, for one, see no VIRTUE in having blue eyes or in a group of people having blue eyes. It's just a human phenotypic variation, no more and no less, and I say that as someone whose paternal family is all light eyed. I just don't understand the emotion around this trait, or light hair, either, for that matter, and never have done. What, do the parents in northern Europe or from that stock tell their children before they tuck them in at night how superior they are if they carry those traits? Bizarre. The fact is that the "story" around de-pigmentation snps has been false to a large degree, science is showing it, and pointing that out is indeed a VIRTUE, I suppose.

As to serious matters such as why, a couple of things occur to me. I think it's very probable that this group of individuals represents a migration from Anatolia south into the Levant for the reasons I suggested above as well as the well known archaeological data. Thus, the presence of the blue eye gene should not be a surprise. The levels are higher than in the Anatolian Neolithic samples, however. Whether that is a result of continued selection with time, or the fact that this is one group of people with unusually high levels coincidentally I don't know. We'd need samples from the same culture but in other locations in order to know for certain. This sample is small and all from one site.

I've long thought that the presence of the blue eye gene in the Anatolian Neolithic may have come from the UHG, but so far as I know there's not enough data to prove that. It may be part of background variation in hunter gatherers related to the Villabruna group, because it wasn't present in the earlier hunter-gatherers of Europe. I'm not sure about the impact of selection. Again, so far as I know, no one has really found the environmental factor tied to selection for it. Perhaps social selection played a role.

Speaking of Gamba et al, perhaps it makes more sense now that people carrying both light eye and light skin and perhaps light hair genes appeared there in Hungary so early, before the movement of any steppe peoples into the area, and, for that matter, the same kinds of alleles at very high levels in Cucuteni Tripolye*.

*Ed. Globular Amphora

[holderlin]

The blue eyes really aren't that fascinating given the proposed mixture model. If these samples were 12k years old I would be surprised.

It is a little surprising though if you just looked at the admixture bars because you don't see any WHG, but these alleles were also in CHG, and of course the admixture model requires some WHG.

Lazaridis is just doing what he thinks is best for the field of study, which is a good thing. This kind of research has historically been used for very murderous political ideologies, and they have to avoid that perception at all costs. So of course he's going to scream from the mountain tops after any publication that can be fitted to show mixing or relatedness between ancient Middle Easterners and Europeans. Just like Willerslev did with Kennewick Man when going into it he pretty much knew that the sample was going to be strongly related to the local tribes, and honestly it was great to see those two Native American dudes realize that science can work on their side. It was also cool to see them realize that ancient connection in real time.

[halfalp]

It is a FACT, and a SURPRISING fact that Levant Chalcolithic has the blue eye snp at 50%. That is a substantial increase even from the levels found in the Anatolia Neolithic of about 25%.

Anyone reading a tweet from Lazaridis' account would be presumed to know the latter fact as well as the fact that the WHG were fixed for it. How someone could be so dense as to think Lazaridis is trying to "hide" that fact about the WHG is beyond me. He freaking REPORTED it in his own papers, but some of you apparently don't read papers. What VIRTUE there is in pointing this surprising fact out is also beyond me. Some of you reveal your prejudices so unknowingly. I, for one, see no VIRTUE in having blue eyes or in a group of people having blue eyes. It's just a human phenotypic variation, no more and no less, and I say that as someone whose paternal family is all light eyed. I just don't understand the emotion around this trait, or light hair, either, for that matter, and never have done. What, do the parents in northern Europe or from that stock tell their children before they tuck them in at night how superior they are if they carry those traits? Bizarre. The fact is that the "story" around de-pigmentation snps has been false to a large degree, science is showing it, and pointing that out is indeed a VIRTUE, I suppose.

As to serious matters such as why, a couple of things occur to me. I think it's very probable that this group of individuals represents a migration from Anatolia south into the Levant for the reasons I suggested above as well as the well known archaeological data. Thus, the presence of the blue eye gene should not be a surprise. The levels are higher than in the Anatolian Neolithic samples, however. Whether that is a result of continued selection with time, or the fact that this is one group of people with unusually high levels coincidentally I don't know. We'd need samples from the same culture but in other locations in order to know for certain. This sample is small and all from one site.

I've long thought that the presence of the blue eye gene in the Anatolian Neolithic may have come from the UHG, but so far as I know there's not enough data to prove that. It may be part of background variation in hunter gatherers related to the Villabruna group, because it wasn't present in the earlier hunter-gatherers of Europe. I'm not sure about the impact of selection. Again, so far as I know, no one has really found the environmental factor tied to selection for it. Perhaps social selection played a role.

Speaking of Gamba et al, perhaps it makes more sense now that people carrying both light eye and light skin and perhaps light hair genes appeared there in Hungary so early, before the movement of any steppe peoples into the area, and, for that matter, the same kinds of alleles at very high levels in Cucuteni Tripolye.

I mean, i've tried to say that to you or in general many times but... The problem is not where fair features appeared. The problem is that we are talking about 6000BC Levant and we make an analogy with Eastern Europe, only because IE theories. Pushing an agenda is not about finding something that nobody ever thought, its about take that information and make a parallel without something else, just too discredit that latter thing. Apparently, you, Lazaridis and many are willing to believe that if Yamnaya was Brown haired / Brown eyed or Blonde haired / Blue eyed it change completely the power of this reality, because some kind of elite ( wich one? George Soros? Lol private joke ) prefer that they were Blond Haired / Blue Eyed.

[halfalp]

there aren't any western or eastern hunter gatherer samples that are genetically close to any Neolithic populations.

I'm not sure to understand your point.

[halfalp]

it is surprising to find people with blond hair and bleu eyes here
but I don't agree that intense mixing would have appeared in the middle east prior to the neolithic
the papers state that genetic distances between sperate pre-neolithic HG groups was as high as between modern Europeans and East Asians

on the other hand we have the paper about the Atlantic Scandinavian WHG who after admixing with EHG from Karelia were blond and blue-eyed too

now I also understand this :

Historical cultural perceptions
Ancient Greece



Most people in ancient Greece had dark hair and, as a result of this, the Greeks found blond hair immensely fascinating.[78] In the Homeric epics, Menelaus the king of the Spartans is, together with some other Achaean leaders, portrayed as blond.[79] Other blond characters in the Homeric poems are Peleus, Achilles, Meleager, Agamede, and Rhadamanthys.[79] Aphrodite, the Greek goddess of love and beauty, was often described as golden-haired and portrayed with this color hair in art.[80] Aphrodite's master epithet in the Homeric epics is Χρυσεη (Khryseē), which means "golden".[81] The traces of hair color on Greek korai probably reflect the colors the artists saw in natural hair;[82] these colors include a broad diversity of shades of blond, red, and brown.[82] The minority of statues with blond hair range from strawberry blond up to platinum blond.[82]

Sappho of Lesbos (c. 630-570 BC) wrote that purple-colored wraps as headdress were good enough, except if the hair was blond: "...for the girl who has hair that is yellower than a torch [it is better to decorate it] with wreaths of flowers in bloom."[83] Sappho also praises Aphrodite for her golden hair, stating that since gold metal is free from rust, the goddess's golden hair represents her freedom from ritual pollution.[81] Sappho's contemporary Alcman of Sparta praised golden hair as one of the most desirable qualities of a beautiful woman,[81] describing in various poems "the girl with the yellow hair" and a girl "with the hair like purest gold."[81]

In the fifth century BC, the sculptor Pheidias may have depicted the Greek goddess of wisdom Athena's hair using gold in his famous statue of Athena Parthenos, which was displayed inside the Parthenon.[84] The Greeks thought of the Thracians who lived to the north as having reddish-blond hair.[85] Because many Greek slaves were captured from Thrace, slaves were stereotyped as blond or red-headed.[85] "Xanthias" (Ξανθίας), meaning "reddish blond", was a common name for slaves in ancient Greece[85][86] and a slave by this name appears in many of the comedies of Aristophanes.[86]

The most famous statue of Aphrodite, the Aphrodite of Knidos, sculpted in the fourth century BC by Praxiteles, represented the goddess's hair using gold leaf[87] and contributed to the popularity of the image of Aphrodite as a blonde goddess.[88] Greek prostitutes frequently dyed their hair blond using saffron dyes or colored powders.[89] Blond dye was highly expensive, took great effort to apply, and smelled repugnant,[89] but none of these factors inhibited Greek prostitutes from dying their hair.[89] As a result of this and the natural rarity of blond hair in the Mediterranean region, by the fourth century BC, blond hair was inextricably associated with prostitutes.[89] The comic playwright Menander (c. 342/41 – c. 290 BC) protests that "no chaste woman ought to make her hair yellow."[89] At another point, he deplores blond hair dye as dangerous: "What can we women do wise or brilliant, who sit with hair dyed yellow, outraging the character of gentlewomen, causing the overthrow of houses, the ruin of nuptials, and accusations on the part of children?"[89] Historian and Egyptologist Joann Fletcher asserts that the Macedonian ruler Alexander the Great and members of the Macedonian-Greek Ptolemaic dynasty of Hellenistic Egypt had blond hair, such as Arsinoe II and Berenice II.[90] Historian Michael Grant notes that Ptolemy II Philadelphus, pharaoh and husband to queen Arsinoe II, also had blond hair.[91]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blond#Ancient_Greece

Those are previous fact, based on sample bias. How do you explain how SHG,Villabruna-Like and CHG are Blue Eyed and Anatolian_Nhl and Levant_Chl as well, if there is not some kind of link.

[holderlin]

It is a FACT, and a SURPRISING fact that Levant Chalcolithic has the blue eye snp at 50%. That is a substantial increase even from the levels found in the Anatolia Neolithic of about 25%.

People are allowed to be surprised about this increase. But by the Chalcolithic the notion of these Alleles concentrating due to Admixture from Iranian_Chl/N and Anatolian_N isn't far fetched. That's all I'm saying.

Anyone reading a tweet from Lazaridis' account would be presumed to know the latter fact as well as the fact that the WHG were fixed for it. How someone could be so dense as to think Lazaridis is trying to "hide" that fact is beyond me. He freaking REPORTED it in his own papers, but some of you apparently don't read papers. What VIRTUE there is in pointing this surprising fact out is also beyond me. Some of you reveal your prejudices so unknowingly. I, for one, see no VIRTUE in having blue eyes. Maybe people shouldn't drink before posting.

I wasn't saying he was hiding anything, but the way in which these labs are managing the PR is pretty obvious. Like I posted above, I fully understand and agree with this, but I'm also allowed to snicker at some of these headlines/tweets.

As to serious matters such as why, a couple of things occur to me. I think it's very probable that this group of individuals represents a migration from Anatolia south into the Levant for the reasons I suggested above as well as the well known archaeological data. Thus, the presence of the blue eye gene should not be a surprise. The levels are higher than in the Anatolian Neolithic samples, however. Whether that is a result of continued selection with time, or the fact that this is one group of people with unusually high levels coincidentally I don't know. We'd need samples from the same culture but in other locations in order to know for certain. This sample is small and all from one site.

Yep, and the Iranian_N/Chl could also be bringing some alleles just based on them being in CHG. Would need a latter source population though.

[Angela]

holderlin;551724]People are allowed to be surprised about this increase. But by the Chalcolithic the notion of these Alleles concentrating due to Admixture from Iranian_Chl/N and Anatolian_N isn't far fetched. That's all I'm saying.

I agree.

I wasn't saying he was hiding anything, but the way in which these labs are managing the PR is pretty obvious. Like I posted above, I fully understand and agree with this, but I'm also allowed to snicker at some of these headlines/tweets.

Sorry, I think that's a little paranoid. Sometimes, a surprising fact is just a surprising fact. I don't think anyone expected levels of 50%.

Yep, and the Iranian_N/Chl could also be bringing some alleles just based on them being in CHG. Would need a latter source population though.

Again, I agree.

[Angela]

Those are previous fact, based on sample bias. How do you explain how SHG,Villabruna-Like and CHG are Blue Eyed and Anatolian_Nhl and Levant_Chl as well, if there is not some kind of link.

Could you for crying out loud ever get your facts straight? CHG WAS NOT BLUE-EYED.

Also, read my post # 30 second to last paragraph as to the possible origin.

As far as the following is concerned, you are completely confused:
"I mean, i've tried to say that to you or in general many times but... The problem is not where fair features appeared. The problem is that we are talking about 6000BC Levant and we make an analogy with Eastern Europe, only because IE theories. Pushing an agenda is not about finding something that nobody ever thought, its about take that information and make a parallel without something else, just too discredit that latter thing. Apparently, you, Lazaridis and many are willing to believe that if Yamnaya was Brown haired / Brown eyed or Blonde haired / Blue eyed it change completely the power of this reality, because some kind of elite ( wich one? George Soros? Lol private joke ) prefer that they were Blond Haired / Blue Eyed."

The saga of the blonde, blue-eyed Yamnaya people or more generally the Bronze Age people of places like Ukraine bringing those alleles to central and northern Europe has nothing to do with Iosif Lazaridis, or Reich, or me for that matter. That was the saga promulgated since the late 19th century by "anthropologists" and then repeated by every crack pot racist in the 20th century.

Science has falsified that explanation. It's all much more complicated than that and hasn't really been fully explained as of yet.

[Sile]

I mean, i've tried to say that to you or in general many times but... The problem is not where fair features appeared. The problem is that we are talking about 6000BC Levant and we make an analogy with Eastern Europe, only because IE theories. Pushing an agenda is not about finding something that nobody ever thought, its about take that information and make a parallel without something else, just too discredit that latter thing. Apparently, you, Lazaridis and many are willing to believe that if Yamnaya was Brown haired / Brown eyed or Blonde haired / Blue eyed it change completely the power of this reality, because some kind of elite ( wich one? George Soros? Lol private joke ) prefer that they were Blond Haired / Blue Eyed.

if we look at the origins of blue eyes we see it is from proto-circassians.........maykop culture area
The Circassian language, also known as the Cherkess language, including West Adyghe, Kabardian Adyghe, and Ubykh, is a member of the ancient Northwest Caucasian language family.
Archaeological findings, mainly of dolmens in Northwest Caucasus region, indicate a megalithic culture in the Northwest Caucasus.[44] Around the beginning of the 4th Millennium BCE, the North West Caucasus region and western Steppes became influenced by the Maykop culture.
Is yamnaya also on the black sea or only on the caspian sea side ..........there are different options by some scholars
.
http://www.circassianworld.com/circa...he-circassians

[Angela]

if we look at the origins of blue eyes we see it is from proto-circassians.........maykop culture area
The Circassian language, also known as the Cherkess language, including West Adyghe, Kabardian Adyghe, and Ubykh, is a member of the ancient Northwest Caucasian language family.
Archaeological findings, mainly of dolmens in Northwest Caucasus region, indicate a megalithic culture in the Northwest Caucasus.[44] Around the beginning of the 4th Millennium BCE, the North West Caucasus region and western Steppes became influenced by the Maykop culture.
Is yamnaya also on the black sea or only on the caspian sea side ..........there are different options by some scholars

Again, a totally unresponsive post. Who says they had blue eyes? CHG certainly didn't.

My God, people, go back and read the papers.

[Sile]

2 of the T have snp CTS2214 the same as what was found in the Moroccan paper ( the T samples on the atlantic ocean ) who are found to have migrated to africa from northern Iberia

[Cpluskx]

50% blue eye frequency is a lot. In NE Europe blue eyes became common from much lower percentages, i wonder why the reverse happened in Levant.

[Ygorcs]

So what language did the people already in the levant and south levant speak when these northerners arrived ?
.
And these northerers had already moved emigrated as in left the levant by the early bronze-age.........how can they have taught any language from the north

The issue is not that. It is that Chalcolithic Levant was already northern-shifted (much more Anatolian_Neo and, a bit less so, Iranian_Neo) than Neolithic Levant, but this study also shows that Chalcolithic Levant was still less northern-shifted than Bronze Age Levant, particulary Bronze Age Levant_North (that's especially clear when you look at the PCA, with Chalcolithic Levant closer to Neolithic Levant, and Bronze Age Levant, especially Bronze Age Levant North, even closer to the ancient Caucasian and Iranian samples). That shows that, if Chalcolithic Levant can be modeled as ~43% non-Levantine (Anatolian + Iranian), then Bronze Age Levant were even more affected by these West Asia, but non-Levantine sources of ancestry. In my opinion that came from a second wave from northerners, probably this time more influenced by Iranians/South Caucasians than by Anatolians (maybe the wave that brought a huge percentage of J1 and J2?) - and in my opinion probably more "northeasterly" than the earlier wave and possibly coming roughly from Northern Mesopotamia.

[halfalp]

Could you for crying out loud ever get your facts straight? CHG WAS NOT BLUE-EYED.

Also, read my post # 30 second to last paragraph as to the possible origin.

As far as the following is concerned, you are completely confused:
"I mean, i've tried to say that to you or in general many times but... The problem is not where fair features appeared. The problem is that we are talking about 6000BC Levant and we make an analogy with Eastern Europe, only because IE theories. Pushing an agenda is not about finding something that nobody ever thought, its about take that information and make a parallel without something else, just too discredit that latter thing. Apparently, you, Lazaridis and many are willing to believe that if Yamnaya was Brown haired / Brown eyed or Blonde haired / Blue eyed it change completely the power of this reality, because some kind of elite ( wich one? George Soros? Lol private joke ) prefer that they were Blond Haired / Blue Eyed."

The saga of the blonde, blue-eyed Yamnaya people or more generally the Bronze Age people of places like Ukraine bringing those alleles to central and northern Europe has nothing to do with Iosif Lazaridis, or Reich, or me for that matter. That was the saga promulgated since the late 19th century by "anthropologists" and then repeated by every crack pot racist in the 20th century.

Science has falsified that explanation. It's all much more complicated than that and hasn't really been fully explained as of yet.

Lazaridis just said it in his Twitter. It's not about facts, it's about pushing an agenda. He maybe just confused the fact that CHG had genes for fair skin. The fact that Yamnaya was like Brown Haired / Brown Eyed, like Mediterranean with Fair Skin isn't an issue, why would it be? It's an issue when, in case of IE spreading languages and the potential ancestry and heritage people can get of that, Fair Skin have somehow a role to play. Why would Lazaridis make an analogy of blue eyes with Levant_Chl and Pontic Steppe Eneolithic if he didn't have himself the envy to prove the contrary.

[davef]

Lazaridis just said it in his Twitter. It's not about facts, it's about pushing an agenda. He maybe just confused the fact that CHG had genes for fair skin. The fact that Yamnaya was like Brown Haired / Brown Eyed, like Mediterranean with Fair Skin isn't an issue, why would it be? It's an issue when, in case of IE spreading languages and the potential ancestry and heritage people can get of that, Fair Skin have somehow a role to play. Why would Lazaridis make an analogy of blue eyes with Levant_Chl and Pontic Steppe Eneolithic if he didn't have himself the envy to prove the contrary.

He simply stated how surprising it was to find blue eyes in such a high frequency in an ancient Levantine population. I'm sure hardly anyone expected a frequency this high.

[Ygorcs]

I have to say Lazaridis virtue signaling is pretty obvious this time, he cannot longer hide that he is pushing an agenda. Now he is aknowledging in his Twitter that Gamba and Mathiesen found Anatolian Farmers with blue eyes and him Minoan with blue eyes, and he dont say that Villabruna that predate all those people had blue eyes too. Look at how many black / white mulato in europe and north america have blue eyes, because their mothers where of european descent. People where exchanging from europe - anatolia and ultimately levant, before the neolithic even exist. What's the most funny, is that all those people have too high opinion of themselves, they think they do the right thing, being open minded, being a people of the world. The day all those papers gonna be interpret by Erdogan like Turkey is the birth place of " Aryans " because those liberals scientifics tried to do a good thing to shadowing europe and empowering other places in the world ( even if the real history is more complicate ).

What??? Can you clarify what you really mean? The "Aryan" (PIE) question has virtually nothing to do with these findings ("Aryan" does not mean "people with blue eyes", it means a people with a specific language and culture), and in fact it's been years since we first knew that Anatolian_Neolithic had a significant WHG-like - but still not exactly WHG - ancestry, so if the mutation for blue eyes happened in that ancestral population that contributed to both WHG and Anatolian_Neolithic everything could be neatly explained without any need for conspiracy theories. We also know that blue eyes were regularly find in WHG, but also in significant yet minor percentages in ANF and later in some EEF populations. There is no need to talk about "Aryans" here when the topic is Chalcolithic Levant.

[halfalp]

What??? Can you clarify what you really mean? The "Aryan" (PIE) question has virtually nothing to do with these findings ("Aryan" does not mean "people with blue eyes", it means a people with a specific language and culture), and in fact it's been years since we first knew that Anatolian_Neolithic had a significant WHG-like - but still not exactly WHG - ancestry, so if the mutation for blue eyes happened in that ancestral population that contributed to both WHG and Anatolian_Neolithic everything could be neatly explained without any need for conspiracy theories.

What all this have to do with what i said. You and me obviously knows the meaning of Aryan, of CHG, Anatolia_Nhl, but not everyone. You never fought that people could use it as a political recuperation not to valorize european culture or genetic like Nazis, but to devalorize it instead? I know exactly what i'm fighting for, i'm not interested in PIE for some ancient ethnic pride, but for history, but not every people are like this. Just look at Kurdish people who says " PIE came from Kurdistan ". If you let them have this reality, they gonna after that come with " everything europe as came from Kurdistan, so we have better, we can devalorize them ". Did you remember that Vladimir Putin in 2004 was going to Arkaim ( archeological site of Sintashta Culture ) and talked about it like a " russian pride ". Just imagine the same is do about PIE coming from Kurdistan or Turkey only because some Genetists have to virtue signaling.

[halfalp]

He simply stated how surprising it was to find blue eyes in such a high frequency in an ancient Levantine population. I'm sure hardly anyone expected a frequency this high.

I dont think he was, i was personnally surprised and found interesting that we found mtdna U6 in that context, until people made an analogy between PIE and Levant, then i remember than in 2k18 everything is virtue signalling.

[Ygorcs]

if we look at the origins of blue eyes we see it is from proto-circassians.........maykop culture area
The Circassian language, also known as the Cherkess language, including West Adyghe, Kabardian Adyghe, and Ubykh, is a member of the ancient Northwest Caucasian language family.
Archaeological findings, mainly of dolmens in Northwest Caucasus region, indicate a megalithic culture in the Northwest Caucasus.[44] Around the beginning of the 4th Millennium BCE, the North West Caucasus region and western Steppes became influenced by the Maykop culture.
Is yamnaya also on the black sea or only on the caspian sea side ..........there are different options by some scholars
.
http://www.circassianworld.com/circa...he-circassians

That's total fantasy. CHG and even Caucasian Chalcolithic people were not particularly blue-eyed, WHG much to the west of the Maykop area had already had a much higher proportion of blue eyes, and in fact people of the Villabruna Cluster well, well before Maykop (in the Mesolithic) and far away from the Caucasus. I also think you're making another leap of faith by affirming categorically that the Maykop culture was Proto-Circassian. Besides, as we can see from this study, by the Chalcolithic, when Maykop formed as a culture, there were already relevant proportions of blue eyes in populations of the Levant, Anatolia and all of Europe. No, it's not from Proto-Circassians, it predates them by thousands of years, and the Caucasus wasn't even a hotspot for high blue eyes frequency.

[Ygorcs]

What all this have to do with what i said. You and me obviously knows the meaning of Aryan, of CHG, Anatolia_Nhl, but not everyone. You never fought that people could use it as a political recuperation not to valorize european culture or genetic like Nazis, but to devalorize it instead? I know exactly what i'm fighting for, i'm not interested in PIE for some ancient ethnic pride, but for history, but not every people are like this. Just look at Kurdish people who says " PIE came from Kurdistan ". If you let them have this reality, they gonna after that come with " everything europe as came from Kurdistan, so we have better, we can devalorize them ". Did you remember that Vladimir Putin in 2004 was going to Arkaim ( archeological site of Sintashta Culture ) and talked about it like a " russian pride ". Just imagine the same is do about PIE coming from Kurdistan or Turkey only because some Genetists have to virtue signaling.

I understood what you think about this problem that you perceive. What I didn't understand is your point about the remarks of Lazaridis, and why they are supposedly so misleading or even dangerous. And what do the comments about blue eyes and Chalcolithic Levant have to do with the PIE controversy? What's this association between the Levant and steppe PIE that you're talking about in your posts?

It's not like blue eyes has been demonstrated to be particularly correlated with the spread of PIE-speaking people, especially because out of dozens of Pontic-Caspian samples only a minority have blue eyes, and it's been proven that both light skin and - less so - blue eyes were already widespread before the IE expansion in many parts of Europe and West/Central Asia. In fact, blue eyes are a trait too superficial and minor to allow us to make any inferences about the origin of peoples. It can be selected for or against along the time, "artificially" increased to high frequencies by genetic drift and bottlenecks, or whatever.

[halfalp]

I understood what you think about this problem that you perceive. What I didn't understand is your point about the remarks of Lazaridis, and why they are supposedly so misleading or even dangerous. And what do the comments about blue eyes and Chalcolithic Levant have to do with the PIE controversy? What's this association between the Levant and steppe PIE that you're talking about in your posts?

It's not like blue eyes has been demonstrated to be particularly correlated with the spread of PIE-speaking people, especially because out of dozens of Pontic-Caspian samples only a minority have blue eyes, and it's been proven that both light skin and - less so - blue eyes were already widespread before the IE expansion in many parts of Europe and West/Central Asia. In fact, blue eyes are a trait too superficial and minor to allow us to make any inferences about the origin of peoples. It can be selected for or against along the time, "artificially" increased to high frequencies by genetic drift and bottlenecks, or whatever.

Exactly what's the point? It's Lazaridis who said, Hey look Levant Chalcolithic have more Blue Eyes than Chalcolithic Eastern Europe. Then he start to talk about how some Anatolian Farmers from the Gamba and Mathiesen papers and his study about Minoan also had Blue Eyes, then he even mention CHG for whatever reason. Why? What's the analogy between Levant Chl and Eastern Europe Chl a part of saying something like " hey look near-easterners where more aryans than PIE people ". Obviously my use of the term Aryan here is purely provocative. He could have just said: Wow ancient near-easterners had blue eyes, cool. But no, he talks about eastern europe with a somehow analogy with PIE, like an attack to people believing Eastern Europe and PIE people were Blonde haired and Blue eyed. That's typically people who hide ideas or agenda, and those ideas and agenda resurface at certain points for random reasons.