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Thread: 6.5 ka Levantine chalcolithic DNA

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    "of these GUYS", sorry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenab View Post
    Levant became Semitic after the Iron Age everywhere in the Near East / Middle East became Semitic after the Iron Age.
    That's utter nonsense. Some of the first attested languages in the entire world, from the early to the late Bronze Age, and which were spoken in the Middle East, WERE SEMITIC, including Akkadian, Eblaite, Ugaritic and Old Canaanite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigblob View Post
    This bullshit that ancient peoples of the Middle East and Egypt could not possibly have had blue eyes needs to end:

    https://www.livescience.com/63396-an...rkey-iran.html
    Everyone knows that Middle Eastern ancient DNA samples yielded probable results of blue-eye gene variants, but that's it. Not even in modern Scandinavia there is any entirely blue-eyed society, and certainly it's nothing but wishful thinking to think that "ancient peoples of the Middle East and Egypt had blue eyes". Even the very surprising Chalcolithic Israel population had 49% of blue-eyed samples. In other words, slightly more than half of them did not have blue eyes. That CA Israel population was heavily Anatolia_Neolithic and very unlike the BA Levantines, though it apparently contributed significantly to at least the Northern (Sidon) Levant population, but not to the Southern Levant population, a fact that, according to the authors of that study themselves, may also suggest that not all Chalcolithic Levantine communities was like that of the CA Israeli site, and there was strong genetic structure in that region.

    A blue-eyed majority is even less likely in a place like Egypt, which going by the LBA and IA samples that have already been analyzed, were mostly Levant_Neolithic, Iranian_Neolithic and probably also a fair bit of indigenous North African (IMHO easily mistaken for Levant_Neolithic until we have more ancient DNA samples from Mesolithic and Neolithic North Africa) as well as a non-negligible amount of Subsaharan African ancestry - with much less ANF ancestry (which I think was associated with the spread of blue eyes - it certainly did not come with Indo-Europans, it predates their expansion). Actually some of the carefully cherry-picked Egyptian statues you've posted do not even look like they had blue-pained eyes, but maybe you see things differently from my own eyes.

    To sum it up: did blue-eyed people exist in the CA and BA Middle East and North Africa? Definitely, they do exist even now. Were they a majority in most places? Almost certainly not.

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    halfalp I'm not sure about your point, but i'm Swiss with Dark Brown Hair.
    I see it dark brown but for example in the toilets of a mall I'm light brown almost blond, have any explanation? I also had two kinds of hair, one thicker and one thinner, now at the age I'm running with the finest hair, I'm a Fox Terrier? Something similar happens? I had gray hair and they have disappeared alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    I see it dark brown but for example in the toilets of a mall I'm light brown almost blond, have any explanation? I also had two kinds of hair, one thicker and one thinner, now at the age I'm running with the finest hair, I'm a Fox Terrier? Something similar happens? I had gray hair and they have disappeared alone.
    In the sun my Hairs also are becoming goldish like Chestnut. It's maybe the genes or maybe it's the shampoo.

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    the feeling of hair colour is linked to luminosity: the more light the more "light" hairs;
    some rather blackish haired person under cloudy weather reveal brownish or reddish hues under sunshines, according to heredity, but the difference in luminosity products more effects on fair hairs than on dark hairs where the differences are not so striking (it's gradual, proportioned to lightness of hairs); when head hair is sticked by water BI, light doesn't go through hairs so easily and even very light hairs can seem only brown more or less light : the opposite effect.
    Everybody knows that the same persone at the same time seems lighter or darker haired according to changes in light exposure.
    One of the ways to devine if 'blond' hair is artificial or not is to compare persons with apparently the same hue under sunlight and in a poorly lightened environment. The dyed hairs will appear very lighter in dark environment; It seems to me this is based on more reflectance for dyed hairs and more transparency in the case of natural fair hairs.
    But the same headhair bundle under the same light can change, due to glints depending on hairs curves and on hair form (cylindric, or oval section of hairs) when the head moves.
    Here under, a more reliable and detailed source than me, but uneasy to read:
    www.graphics.stanford.edu/papers/hair/hair-sg03final.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @Johen:
    to date, I know NO pop with majority of red hairs, the maxi's being in NW Ireland, W Scotland and Udmurt - (surely because among red haired people, a lot have some other problems concerning health and this colour as a whole has not been favoured too much during history, spite the story about Ramses II and his "clan").
    I doubt WSHG would have been light pigmented for hair and eyes at a high % -
    The light pigmentation is present, not at an exclusive level, among the West Uralic and IE pops : as the features seemingly 'eastasian' increase in the pops of Urals and Siberia, the light pigmentation of eyes/hair decreases. So maybe the partly 'eastasian' or maybe undifferentiated north-eurasian (ANElike) pop knew a mutation concerning hairs, but it doesn't seem this mutation gained much ground in it. I repeat more than a mutation causes red hairs as well as blond hairs and beside this, Udmurt have more 'caucasoid' input than 'eastasian'.
    I think some afanasievo and okunevo people had brown hair with brown eye and blue eye also. Right?



    The derived allele of the KITLG SNP rs12821256 that is associated with – and likely causal for – blond hair in Europeans [4,5] is present in one hunter-gatherer from each of Samara, Motala and Ukraine (I0124, I0014 and I1763), as well as several later individuals with Steppe ancestry. Since the allele is found in populations with EHG but not WHG ancestry, it suggests that its origin is in the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) population. Consistent with this, we observe that earliest known individual with the derived allele is the [Siberian] ANE individual Afontova Gora 3 which is directly dated to 16130-15749 cal BCE (14710±60 BP, MAMS-27186: a previously unpublished date that we newly report here).
    So, we can think that so many people had lived with blonde hairs in the huge areas from lake baikal to East Europe at that time. And blue eyes was kept from afanasievo to okunevo, which means, I think, that the other local people also had the blue eye genes at the Altai. As WHG blue eyes were wiped out by farmers, blue eyes could not be produced in Europe at that time. In other words, just small slaves or andronovo people with recessive light gene could not make locals in siberia, mongolia, and south central asian people to have light eyes and light hairs, I think.
    Last edited by johen; 12-01-19 at 08:25.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    I think some afanasievo and okunevo people had brown hair with brown eye and blue eye also. Right?





    So, we can think that so many people had lived with blonde hairs in the huge areas from lake baikal to East Europe at that time. And blue eyes was kept from afanasievo to okunevo, which means, I think, that the other local people also had the blue eye genes at the Altai. As WHG blue eyes were wiped out by farmers, blue eyes could not be produced in Europe at that time. In other words, just small slaves or andronovo people with recessive light gene could not make locals in siberia, mongolia, and south central asian people to have light eyes and light hairs, I think.
    WHG and blue eyes were not wiped out by the Anatolian farmers. Blue eyes actually seem to have picked up by many EEF (which, remember, was a mixture of EEF + WHG in most regions) in Neolithic Europe. GAC was overwhelmingly EEF in ancestry, and it had not just high frequency of blonde hair, but also blue eyes. Pockets of mostly WHG survived during the Early and Mid Neolithic and in the Late Neolithic there was famously a resurgence of WHG in most of Europe. The ~20-30% of WHG ancestry in some EEF areas of Europe was more than enough for the "blue eye" mutation to spread to the European farmers of Anatolian descent, and in fact blue eyes were apparently found even in 1 sample from Neolithic Anatolia itself.

    As for Okunevo and Afanasevo, didn't Okunevo derive a minor part of its ancestry from the former Afanasevo (some Okunevo sample even had the same R1b clade prevalent in former Afanasevo)? I find it likely, and I remember reading something like that in the papers I've read about the Okunevo DNA findings. Afanasevo and other later Western Steppe cultural expansions could easily have lent the genes for blue eyes to peoples like Okunevo, especially since some mutations, once acquired, tend to go on with their own inner expansion as they are selected positively and/or favored by some group, without any need for a big and additional genetic input from foreigners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    I think some afanasievo and okunevo people had brown hair with brown eye and blue eye also. Right?





    So, we can think that so many people had lived with blonde hairs in the huge areas from lake baikal to East Europe at that time. And blue eyes was kept from afanasievo to okunevo, which means, I think, that the other local people also had the blue eye genes at the Altai. As WHG blue eyes were wiped out by farmers, blue eyes could not be produced in Europe at that time. In other words, just small slaves or andronovo people with recessive light gene could not make locals in siberia, mongolia, and south central asian people to have light eyes and light hairs, I think.
    Okunevo people had clear mixing with the local Yamnaya-Afanasievo looking at their mtdna.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    WHG and blue eyes were not wiped out by the Anatolian farmers. Blue eyes actually seem to have picked up by many EEF (which, remember, was a mixture of EEF + WHG in most regions) in Neolithic Europe. GAC was overwhelmingly EEF in ancestry, and it had not just high frequency of blonde hair, but also blue eyes. Pockets of mostly WHG survived during the Early and Mid Neolithic and in the Late Neolithic there was famously a resurgence of WHG in most of Europe. The ~20-30% of WHG ancestry in some EEF areas of Europe was more than enough for the "blue eye" mutation to spread to the European farmers of Anatolian descent, and in fact blue eyes were apparently found even in 1 sample from Neolithic Anatolia itself.

    As for Okunevo and Afanasevo, didn't Okunevo derive a minor part of its ancestry from the former Afanasevo (some Okunevo sample even had the same R1b clade prevalent in former Afanasevo)? I find it likely, and I remember reading something like that in the papers I've read about the Okunevo DNA findings. Afanasevo and other later Western Steppe cultural expansions could easily have lent the genes for blue eyes to peoples like Okunevo, especially since some mutations, once acquired, tend to go on with their own inner expansion as they are selected positively and/or favored by some group, without any need for a big and additional genetic input from foreigners.
    I'm still not sure about that. I looked at Genetiker pigmentation calls ( i know, i know ). And surprisingly Blonde haired people with Blue eyes linked with early EEF / Barcin seems to be overwhelmingly of mtdna N1a1, wich is clearly Anatolian or broadly Middle-Eastern. Blonde hairs might be older, and had different founder effects, in Scandinavia, Eastern Europe and Balkans ( Danubian Plain ) / Anatolia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    I think some afanasievo and okunevo people had brown hair with brown eye and blue eye also. Right?





    So, we can think that so many people had lived with blonde hairs in the huge areas from lake baikal to East Europe at that time. And blue eyes was kept from afanasievo to okunevo, which means, I think, that the other local people also had the blue eye genes at the Altai. As WHG blue eyes were wiped out by farmers, blue eyes could not be produced in Europe at that time. In other words, just small slaves or andronovo people with recessive light gene could not make locals in siberia, mongolia, and south central asian people to have light eyes and light hairs, I think.
    I 'll not repeat the Ygorcs's arguments - just I find very light your proves here above
    1- I don't know what cultures are in cause (except Okunevo, too much abbreviations)
    2- I don't know what sites of these cultures are in cause (by instance, Okunevo of Tuva was for the most of 'europoid' stock, compared to other Okunevo sites, spite very far East itself
    3- here the great majorities of these people here have got brown (dark) eyes
    4- here the blue eyed ones are among people with Y-R1b6M269 and Y-R1a1-Z93
    5- there would not be blond haired but the majority of supposed middle brown haired ones are amog Y-R1b-M269 and Y-R1a1-Z93
    It's true some Y-R1 have eastern mt-DNA -but the Y-Q1a3 with intermediate eyes has mt-U - BTW the two blue eyed in Y-R1b are mt-H and mt-J, "european" -
    As a whole, this table spite interesting, is very VERY too SMALL concerning some specific SNP's to make solid conclusions. So my own observations about colours and Y-haplo's in a mixed pop are without too much weight statistically.
    I never know of a rather blond or rather blue eyed Mongolic pops; just someones in mixed pops with strong Slavic or proto-Iranic input whatever the past.

    and "recessive"? What sense has it here? Recessive alleles can be passed from a pop A to a pop B very easily if it 's selectioned (mesologic or social-sexual pressure)
    I don't know what you were trying to prove but you miss the goal, I think, with this only table. No offense.
    I repeat mutations for light pigmentation could have been born in some borderline pop with weighty ANE making but the evidence today is that these mutations gave success only among rather 'europoid' pop. (I don't speak here of the blond hairs of some Australoids); the quasi lack of blond haired brown eyed people even at the individual level discards I think that the all the blue eyes mutations were born among black haired pops.

    What remains possible is that a mutation light haires-light-eyes occurred among some North Central Asian pops (strong for Y-N1?) and could have had a cumulative effects with other "europoid" mutations producing what we find among Western Finns: but here again, this very speculative success occurred only in the Western parts of the Uralic world, were these ancestors mixed deeply with 'europoids' under certain same conditions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I'm still not sure about that. I looked at Genetiker pigmentation calls ( i know, i know ). And surprisingly Blonde haired people with Blue eyes linked with early EEF / Barcin seems to be overwhelmingly of mtdna N1a1, wich is clearly Anatolian or broadly Middle-Eastern. Blonde hairs might be older, and had different founder effects, in Scandinavia, Eastern Europe and Balkans ( Danubian Plain ) / Anatolia.
    Where are these Genetiker pigmentation calls of Barcin and how have you the links of pigmentation with uniparental markers? (BTW I don't understand too well the Genetiker's calls in pigmentation : often it is under the form of 1/3 or 2/8 or so. (is this the number of mutated alleles on the total of verifiable pigmentation alleles ? I'm short here.
    &: Y- and mt- markers in a small sample of mixed pop are not to be taken too seriously if the mixing is old enough, every kind of exchanges can have taken place. Only a big number of unchanged correlations could tell us something, and then, it could show a not completely and evenly mixed pop...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I 'll not repeat the Ygorcs's arguments - just I find very light your proves here above
    1- I don't know what cultures are in cause (except Okunevo, too much abbreviations)
    2- I don't know what sites of these cultures are in cause (by instance, Okunevo of Tuva was for the most of 'europoid' stock, compared to other Okunevo sites, spite very far East itself
    3- here the great majorities of these people here have got brown (dark) eyes
    4- here the blue eyed ones are among people with Y-R1b6M269 and Y-R1a1-Z93
    5- there would not be blond haired but the majority of supposed middle brown haired ones are amog Y-R1b-M269 and Y-R1a1-Z93
    It's true some Y-R1 have eastern mt-DNA -but the Y-Q1a3 with intermediate eyes has mt-U - BTW the two blue eyed in Y-R1b are mt-H and mt-J, "european" -
    As a whole, this table spite interesting, is very VERY too SMALL concerning some specific SNP's to make solid conclusions. So my own observations about colours and Y-haplo's in a mixed pop are without too much weight statistically.
    I never know of a rather blond or rather blue eyed Mongolic pops; just someones in mixed pops with strong Slavic or proto-Iranic input whatever the past.

    and "recessive"? What sense has it here? Recessive alleles can be passed from a pop A to a pop B very easily if it 's selectioned (mesologic or social-sexual pressure)
    I don't know what you were trying to prove but you miss the goal, I think, with this only table. No offense.
    I repeat mutations for light pigmentation could have been born in some borderline pop with weighty ANE making but the evidence today is that these mutations gave success only among rather 'europoid' pop. (I don't speak here of the blond hairs of some Australoids); the quasi lack of blond haired brown eyed people even at the individual level discards I think that the all the blue eyes mutations were born among black haired pops.

    What remains possible is that a mutation light haires-light-eyes occurred among some North Central Asian pops (strong for Y-N1?) and could have had a cumulative effects with other "europoid" mutations producing what we find among Western Finns: but here again, this very speculative success occurred only in the Western parts of the Uralic world, were these ancestors mixed deeply with 'europoids' under certain same conditions.
    Here is two points to discuss, blonde and blue eye only regarding east and west Eurasian based upon aDNA research paper by well known institution.
    The blonde thing is solved by Ian. M paper on 2017.
    The other thing is the blue eye. Yamna people cannot have it genetically until now:


    We will wait and see where the blue eyes of yamna, okunevo and andronovo orginated in.

    p.s
    By Ian, M 2017 paper, andronovo seems to not have the blue eyes, but krugan people on west siberia had it.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10...439-009-0683-0
    Last edited by johen; 13-01-19 at 19:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Where are these Genetiker pigmentation calls of Barcin and how have you the links of pigmentation with uniparental markers? (BTW I don't understand too well the Genetiker's calls in pigmentation : often it is under the form of 1/3 or 2/8 or so. (is this the number of mutated alleles on the total of verifiable pigmentation alleles ? I'm short here.
    &: Y- and mt- markers in a small sample of mixed pop are not to be taken too seriously if the mixing is old enough, every kind of exchanges can have taken place. Only a big number of unchanged correlations could tell us something, and then, it could show a not completely and evenly mixed pop...

    I've repertoriate for 1 or 2 hours the samples ID with the cultures in question and watched their Lineages. The Barcin ones are labeled NW Asia Minor Early Neolithic, wich is Barcin. The sample in question is
    I1096 NW Asia Minor EN 6500–6200 BC Light Blond Blue
    Wich was: I1096:mtDNA: N1a1a1Y-DNA: I2c

    I1580 NW Asia Minor EN 6500–6200 BC Light Blond Blue
    Wich was: I1580:mtDNA: H5

    For the mesolithic Europeans it's very random it goes with y-dna I2a2 and mtdna U5a, but the other Blonde Hair calls from Neolithic Balkans that i've repertoriate shows mtdna N1a1a just like the Barcin one.

    I dont know how he makes the calls, neither if they are pertinent, i just noticed that from Early Neolithic NW Asia Minor to Neolithic Balkans, a lot of call for Blonde Hairs had mtdna N1a1a.

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    Haltaf, I found that with your link (thanks, BTW)


    Abstract

    To help unravel some of the early Eurasian steppe migration movements, we determined the Y-chromosomal and mitochondrial haplotypes and haplogroups of 26 ancient human specimens from the Krasnoyarsk area dated from between the middle of the second millennium BC. to the fourth century AD. In order to go further in the search of the geographic origin and physical traits of these south Siberian specimens, we also typed phenotype-informative single nucleotide polymorphisms. Our autosomal, Y-chromosomal and mitochondrial DNA analyses reveal that whereas few specimens seem to be related matrilineally or patrilineally, nearly all subjects belong to haplogroup R1a1-M17 which is thought to mark the eastward migration of the early Indo-Europeans. Our results also confirm that at the Bronze and Iron Ages, south Siberia was a region of overwhelmingly predominant European settlement, suggesting an eastward migration of Kurgan people across the Russo-Kazakh steppe. Finally, our data indicate that at the Bronze and Iron Age timeframe, south Siberians were blue (or green)-eyed, fair-skinned and light-haired people and that they might have played a role in the early development of the Tarim Basin civilization. To the best of our knowledge, no equivalent molecular analysis has been undertaken so far.

    OK: But if I understand well, these Kurgan people of South SIberia were rather "blondish and blue" and they were supposed to be IE of Steppes: To me THAT IS Andronovo or an akin culture (Afanasyevo?): all the way people with a good chunk of tribes of what is named today North Kazakhstan - the only difference with Andronovo people is that their 'caucasian' (rather archaic) making what partly modified by a slight input of local West Siberian HG's (between 'mongoloid' and 'europoid', not truly 'east-asian')

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Here is two points to discuss, blonde and blue eye only regarding east and west Eurasian based upon aDNA research paper by well known institution.
    The blonde thing is solved by Ian. M paper on 2017.
    The other thing is the blue eye. Yamna people cannot have it genetically until now:


    We will wait and see where the blue eyes of yamna, okunevo and andronovo orginated in.

    p.s
    By Ian, M 2017 paper, andronovo seems to not have the blue eyes, but krugan people on west siberia had it.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10...439-009-0683-0
    Thanks for kind an quiet answer;
    I 'm afraid we are far from the topic now!
    That said, I have hard work to interpret these (small) figures. And do you have the samples numbers? Maybe it would be better to email me, to not polluate this thread?
    Sorry for I made a mess of your pseudo!

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Here is two points to discuss, blonde and blue eye only regarding east and west Eurasian based upon aDNA research paper by well known institution.
    The blonde thing is solved by Ian. M paper on 2017.
    The other thing is the blue eye. Yamna people cannot have it genetically until now:


    We will wait and see where the blue eyes of yamna, okunevo and andronovo orginated in.

    p.s
    By Ian, M 2017 paper, andronovo seems to not have the blue eyes, but krugan people on west siberia had it.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10...439-009-0683-0
    Just so people don't get confused: the Hunter-Gatherer group here is comprised of WHG, EHG, and SHG. That's why the graph shows reasonable scores for skin lightening for HG. The WHG would have scored 0 for the de-pigmentation snps except for OCA2. In final versions he really should have broken it out better.

    Also, for accuracy, all the Yamnaya samples should be looked at, not just the ones he used. However, it shouldn't be a surprise if a lot of them were brown eyed. Some of them were 50% CHG/Iran and dark eyes are dominant, with no agreed upon selective advantage.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Just so people don't get confused: the Hunter-Gatherer group here is comprised of WHG, EHG, and SHG. That's why the graph shows reasonable scores for skin lightening for HG. The WHG would have scored 0 for the de-pigmentation snps except for OCA2. In final versions he really should have broken it out better.

    Also, for accuracy, all the Yamnaya samples should be looked at, not just the ones he used. However, it shouldn't be a surprise if a lot of them were brown eyed. Some of them were 50% CHG/Iran and dark eyes are dominant, with no agreed upon selective advantage.
    According to Genetiker calls ( once again ) most of Ukraine_Neolithic, Balkans HG's and Baltic HG's so basically the principal european sources ( i guess ) for the futur Yamnaya and previous cultures were Brown Eyed, Dark Haired and approximatelly 50/50 Light and Medium skinned. The fact that Blonde Hairs appears approximatively ( 1000 years of difference at last ) in Scandinavia, Khvalynsk and Northwestern Anatolia is kind of enigmatic, they likely dont have developped those traits by themselves right? So we can extrapolate that the genes for Blonde Hairs exist for some time already before but was ultra scarce, like very scarce. Wich makes me believe that 1 founder effect happened once, but that multiple factors made the selection possible. Maybe both High Latitudes, Farming Cereals and other factors were positive for the genes to expand. Maybe Corded Ware and related cultures like Sintashta and Andronovo had positive selection because eating a lot of Mushrooms. I know it sounds stupid just like that, but what do we know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Everyone knows that Middle Eastern ancient DNA samples yielded probable results of blue-eye gene variants, but that's it. Not even in modern Scandinavia there is any entirely blue-eyed society, and certainly it's nothing but wishful thinking to think that "ancient peoples of the Middle East and Egypt had blue eyes". Even the very surprising Chalcolithic Israel population had 49% of blue-eyed samples. In other words, slightly more than half of them did not have blue eyes. That CA Israel population was heavily Anatolia_Neolithic and very unlike the BA Levantines, though it apparently contributed significantly to at least the Northern (Sidon) Levant population, but not to the Southern Levant population, a fact that, according to the authors of that study themselves, may also suggest that not all Chalcolithic Levantine communities was like that of the CA Israeli site, and there was strong genetic structure in that region.

    A blue-eyed majority is even less likely in a place like Egypt, which going by the LBA and IA samples that have already been analyzed, were mostly Levant_Neolithic, Iranian_Neolithic and probably also a fair bit of indigenous North African (IMHO easily mistaken for Levant_Neolithic until we have more ancient DNA samples from Mesolithic and Neolithic North Africa) as well as a non-negligible amount of Subsaharan African ancestry - with much less ANF ancestry (which I think was associated with the spread of blue eyes - it certainly did not come with Indo-Europans, it predates their expansion). Actually some of the carefully cherry-picked Egyptian statues you've posted do not even look like they had blue-pained eyes, but maybe you see things differently from my own eyes.

    To sum it up: did blue-eyed people exist in the CA and BA Middle East and North Africa? Definitely, they do exist even now. Were they a majority in most places? Almost certainly not.
    I never said blue eyed people were a majority anywhere, but they did exist in the ancient Middle East and Egypt/ North Africa. The DNA taken from the Abusir el Meleq mummies showed they had dark hair,eyes with light skin looking like the majority of Egyptians today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    According to Genetiker calls ( once again ) most of Ukraine_Neolithic, Balkans HG's and Baltic HG's so basically the principal european sources ( i guess ) for the futur Yamnaya and previous cultures were Brown Eyed, Dark Haired and approximatelly 50/50 Light and Medium skinned. The fact that Blonde Hairs appears approximatively ( 1000 years of difference at last ) in Scandinavia, Khvalynsk and Northwestern Anatolia is kind of enigmatic, they likely dont have developped those traits by themselves right? So we can extrapolate that the genes for Blonde Hairs exist for some time already before but was ultra scarce, like very scarce. Wich makes me believe that 1 founder effect happened once, but that multiple factors made the selection possible. Maybe both High Latitudes, Farming Cereals and other factors were positive for the genes to expand. Maybe Corded Ware and related cultures like Sintashta and Andronovo had positive selection because eating a lot of Mushrooms. I know it sounds stupid just like that, but what do we know.
    Hair colour originated from Neanderthals according to many scientists.
    https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...rn-humans-look

    The oldest blonde haired remains were found in Russia and are dated over 14 000 years. The ancient Scandinavian hunter - gatherers had blonde hair, white skin and blue eyes at least 7700 years ago. (Motala Man)

    So if you have blonde hair, blue eyes you probably resemble your Neanderthal ancestor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blond

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigblob View Post
    Hair colour originated from Neanderthals according to many scientists.
    https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...rn-humans-look

    The oldest blonde haired remains were found in Russia and are dated over 14 000 years. The ancient Scandinavian hunter - gatherers had blonde hair, white skin and blue eyes at least 7700 years ago. (Motala Man)

    So if you have blonde hair, blue eyes you probably resemble your Neanderthal ancestor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blond
    Afontova Gora 3 had only 1 derivative allels related with Blonde Hairs. But what's interesting is that this individual was mtdna R1b, the same found later in Karelia. Maybe Blonde Hairs were stuck for some times in far north european russia and irradiate there through Laponia into Scandinavia.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigblob View Post
    Hair colour originated from Neanderthals according to many scientists.
    https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...rn-humans-look

    The oldest blonde haired remains were found in Russia and are dated over 14 000 years. The ancient Scandinavian hunter - gatherers had blonde hair, white skin and blue eyes at least 7700 years ago. (Motala Man)

    So if you have blonde hair, blue eyes you probably resemble your Neanderthal ancestor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blond
    That is absolute nonsense. In fact, your citations in no way support your conclusions. If you deliberately distort the findings of papers again to mislead there are going to be consequences.

    "Dannemann points out that you can look at someone's genes and have a hard time telling if she's tall or short — most human traits are determined by multiple genes working together. When it comes to skin tone, he says, several different parts of genetic material impact it, only some of which come from Neanderthals."It's not any single gene that makes a huge difference ... It's not like morning people have one thing and evening people have another," says anthropologist John Hawks, of the University of Wisconsin–Madison. "It's many genes. Each of them has some small effect. This study is pointing out that, hey, there's one of these [genes] that has a small effect coming from Neanderthals."
    Dannemann says they found multiple Neanderthal genes that affected hair and skin tone, some lighter and some darker. He says this suggests that Neanderthals themselves may have had variation in those traits too, meaning, maybe they too had a range of skin and hair tones."

    Blonde hair does NOT come from Neanderthals.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The people living in Copper-Age Anatolia, were autosomally pretty much the same as they were in the bronze-age according to the Willerslev et al graphic. These were those blue-eyed migrants that went to settle down in the Levant. :

    https://www.livescience.com/63396-an...rkey-iran.html
    https://science.sciencemag.org/conte.../6396/eaar7711


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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Perhaps the occasional depiction of fair features in ancient Mediterranean people doesn't necessarily have to come from Northern European sources. Because they were present in people coming in from Anatolia who had them as early as the copper age. The Bronze-Age Anatolian who spread west, that are exclusive of the ones that went down into the Levant; would probably have these features too. I don't think it was the norm phenotypically, but the mutations were there.

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    I can see in the figure that CA and EBA/MLBA Anatolia have similar proportions, but how did you make the link between them and the CA Peqi'in population? Is there any data/analysis showing this?
    And the CA Peqi'in population was said to be migrants of Northern Mesopotamia, meaning from probably the regions of South-Eastern-Turkey, Syria and Iraq.
    The CA Anatolia sample seems to be from Central/Western Turkey. Does this mean there was another group of migration from Northern Mesopotamia into Central/Western Turkey during the Chalcolithic period? And these people were genetically different from the Neolithic Anatolia samples? Which Y-DNA is associated with these groups?
    And could these people have made migrations into the Italian Peninsula during the Iron Age?

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