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Thread: 6.5 ka Levantine chalcolithic DNA

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    Wait, is the Violet admixture in Sidelkino Anatolian Neolithic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Perhaps the occasional depiction of fair features in ancient Mediterranean people doesn't necessarily have to come from Northern European sources. Because they were present in people coming in from Anatolia who had them as early as the copper age. The Bronze-Age Anatolian who spread west, that are exclusive of the ones that went down into the Levant; would probably have these features too. I don't think it was the norm phenotypically, but the mutations were there.
    True, but it also somehow contradicte the hypothesis that Fair Features are an evolutionary trait. One explanation that fair features would come from Anatolia, would be that Anatolia had a very continental/cold climate + farming diet, because then what's the evolutionary purpose of losing pigmentation? It would be like a coincidence that a depigmentation process occured in a warm climate then fixed itself in a more temperate/cold one by chance. My guess, with the only few samples we have, fair features in Anatolia came from a founder effect, younger than the real mutations. It was positively selected after it. There is actually plenty of fair mesolithic europeans, the calls made by people like Genetiker were never confirmed by the authors of the studies for weird reasons. They could have review their studies and confirm or infirm the calls made. Then we can just say " he is an amateur, he is wrong " and we miss big pictures of the hypothesis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    True, but it also somehow contradicte the hypothesis that Fair Features are an evolutionary trait. One explanation that fair features would come from Anatolia, would be that Anatolia had a very continental/cold climate + farming diet, because then what's the evolutionary purpose of losing pigmentation? It would be like a coincidence that a depigmentation process occured in a warm climate then fixed itself in a more temperate/cold one by chance. My guess, with the only few samples we have, fair features in Anatolia came from a founder effect, younger than the real mutations. It was positively selected after it. There is actually plenty of fair mesolithic europeans, the calls made by people like Genetiker were never confirmed by the authors of the studies for weird reasons. They could have review their studies and confirm or infirm the calls made. Then we can just say " he is an amateur, he is wrong " and we miss big pictures of the hypothesis.
    Latitude might be a weak predictor of depigmentation, especially as far as hair and eye color are concerned. What advantage does blond hair confer? Even with skin it isn't that obvious. Central Siberians don't look much lighter than Levantines for instance (I suspect the opposite might be the case if you account for tanning).

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Latitude might be a weak predictor of depigmentation, especially as far as hair and eye color are concerned. What advantage does blond hair confer? Even with skin it isn't that obvious. Central Siberians don't look much lighter than Levantines for instance (I suspect the opposite might be the case if you account for tanning).
    Hypothesis, i have plenty, but none were ever tested or even considered, so for now we only have the history they told us, until it gonna inevitably change with new samples, new scientists, new technics, new knowledges etc.

    But to counter, what advantage does Farmer diet gives to the selection of this feature? Because Farmers eated plenty of animal food and there is no correlation between genes for fair hairs and fair skin with farmer diet because they were found in early samples unrelated with neolithic. It's not like gluten stops pigmentation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Hypothesis, i have plenty, but none were ever tested or even considered, so for now we only have the history they told us, until it gonna inevitably change with new samples, new scientists, new technics, new knowledges etc.

    But to counter, what advantage does Farmer diet gives to the selection of this feature? Because Farmers eated plenty of animal food and there is no correlation between genes for fair hairs and fair skin with farmer diet because they were found in early samples unrelated with neolithic. It's not like gluten stops pigmentation.
    It might have nothing to do with agriculture. See the blond tropical horticulturalists in Melanesia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    It might have nothing to do with agriculture. See the blond tropical horticulturalists in Melanesia.
    So what does ( apparently ) two different genes who are stopping the melanine process tells us about it? Some sort of Esthetical Same-Specie convergent evolution? I dont buy it.

    Why is there Blue Eyes in some Wolves and Foxes if this is a recessive trait and probably always was a minority. Do Wolves and Foxes understand Esthetics? Both Species are Monogamous, are they searching for the perfect mate, just like Humans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    So what does ( apparently ) two different genes who are stopping the melanine process tells us about it? Some sort of Esthetical Same-Specie convergent evolution? I dont buy it.

    Why is there Blue Eyes in some Wolves and Foxes if this is a recessive trait and probably always was a minority. Do Wolves and Foxes understand Esthetics? Both Species are Monogamous, are they searching for the perfect mate, just like Humans?
    So why couldn't Near Easterners have been fair?

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    So why couldn't Near Easterners have been fair?
    Near Easterners is like talking of WHG from Spain and EHG from Karelia as something related. Natufians, Anatolians HG, CHG, Iran HG, were all different groups more divergent than WHG and EHG. It's also different to say " Near Easterners at some point had fair features " wich is fair enough. To say, " fair features came from neolithic farmers ". Wich the latter is used by scientists in studies.

    I'm always so bugged how people are taking conclusions. If you need to put up 100 studies in your life and each one contradict the previous, it's then conclusions are probably not needed for the time being.

    Also if Fair Features are unrelated at all with climate or latitudes, why then was it positively selected in high latitudes, pure sapiens coincidence going along evolutionary incidences? Surely not. Those few years studies have open way too much questions that scientists can respond to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suyindik View Post
    I can see in the figure that CA and EBA/MLBA Anatolia have similar proportions, but how did you make the link between them and the CA Peqi'in population? Is there any data/analysis showing this?
    And the CA Peqi'in population was said to be migrants of Northern Mesopotamia, meaning from probably the regions of South-Eastern-Turkey, Syria and Iraq.
    The CA Anatolia sample seems to be from Central/Western Turkey. Does this mean there was another group of migration from Northern Mesopotamia into Central/Western Turkey during the Chalcolithic period? And these people were genetically different from the Neolithic Anatolia samples? Which Y-DNA is associated with these groups?
    And could these people have made migrations into the Italian Peninsula during the Iron Age?
    From the paper:

    Our finding that the Levant_ChL population can be well-modeled as a three-way admixture between Levant_N (57%), Anatolia_N (26%), and Iran_ChL (17%), while the Levant_BA_South can be modeled as a mixture of Levant_N (58%) and Iran_ChL (42%), but has little if any additional Anatolia_N-related ancestry, can only be explained by multiple episodes of population movement. The presence of Iran_ChL-related ancestry in both populations – but not in the earlier Levant_N – suggests a history of spread into the Levant of peoples related to Iranian agriculturalists, which must have occurred at least by the time of the Chalcolithic. The Anatolian_N component present in the Levant_ChL but not in the Levant_BA_South sample suggests that there was also a separate spread of Anatolian-related people into the region. The Levant_BA_South population may thus represent a remnant of a population that formed after an initial spread of Iran_ChL-related ancestry into the Levant that was not affected by the spread of an Anatolia_N-related population, or perhaps a reintroduction of a population without Anatolia_N-related ancestry to the region. We additionally find that the Levant_ChL population does not serve as a likely source of the Levantine-related ancestry in present-day East African populations (see Supplementary Note 4)24.
    9 of the 10 samples were haplogroup T. Nevertheless, the early dominate lineages of the Levant were E, who were overtaken by J in by the Bronze-Age.

    The Wilerslev paper is behind a paywall.

    Raveane et al shows that Anatolians arrived in the Bronze-age, not the IA. However, from the looks of the Wilerslev figure, Southern Europeans certainly went to and lived in central Anatolia in the IA; judging from the second sample.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    From the paper:



    9 of the 10 samples were haplogroup T. Nevertheless, the early dominate lineages of the Levant were E, who were overtaken by J in by the Bronze-Age.
    What I meant was that the ancient dna studies with Y-DNA from Neolithic Central/Western Anatolia found Y-haplogroups like C(AHG), G, H, J. There was no T found in Neolithic Central/Western Anatolia.
    So it seems to me that the genetics of Neolithic Central/Western Anatolia and Eastern Anatolia/Mesopotamia could be different. Maybe T is major in Neolithic Eastern Anatolia/Mesopotamia(Maybe this is from where the Peqi'in population came from?)?
    And in the graph you shared, Neolithic Central/Western Anatolia and Copper Age(Chalcolithic) Central/Western Anatolia are different from each other. Could this mean that migrations from Neolithic Eastern Anatolia/Mesopotamia happened into Central/Western Anatolia during the Copper Age?

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    Quote Originally Posted by suyindik View Post
    What I meant was that the ancient dna studies with Y-DNA from Neolithic Central/Western Anatolia found Y-haplogroups like C(AHG), G, H, J. There was no T found in Neolithic Central/Western Anatolia.
    So it seems to me that the genetics of Neolithic Central/Western Anatolia and Eastern Anatolia/Mesopotamia could be different. Maybe T is major in Neolithic Eastern Anatolia/Mesopotamia(Maybe this is from where the Peqi'in population came from?)?
    And in the graph you shared, Neolithic Central/Western Anatolia and Copper Age(Chalcolithic) Central/Western Anatolia are different from each other. Could this mean that migrations from Neolithic Eastern Anatolia/Mesopotamia happened into Central/Western Anatolia during the Copper Age?
    I wish I was able to access the Willerslev paper to be able to have a more insight.

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    13. Copper Age Anatolia (3800 BC) (15.89) - I0184
    14. Hittite Anatolia (1875 BC) (15.93) - MA2208

    Interestingly, I'm slightly closer to Copper-Age Anatolian, than to Bronze-Age Anatolian Hittite in the mytrueancestry samples. Unfortunately, they didn't link the study for I0184.

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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    13. Copper Age Anatolia (3800 BC) (15.89) - I0184
    14. Hittite Anatolia (1875 BC) (15.93) - MA2208
    Interestingly, I'm slightly closer to Copper-Age Anatolian, than to Bronze-Age Anatolian Hittite in the mytrueancestry samples. Unfortunately, they didn't link the study for I0184.
    Combined: (23 v5, Anc, Liv.DNA, NG Helix):
    14. Hittite Anatolia (1875 BC) (17.41) - MA2208
    18. Copper Age Anatolia (3800 BC) (19.71) - I0184

    23andme v4:

    15. Hittite Anatolia (1875 BC) (17.36) - MA2208
    18. Copper Age Anatolia (3800 BC) (19.79) - I0184

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    Sardinians are the darkest people in Italy, as demonstrated by this map.

    I wonder, if it is true that the Copper Age/Bronze Age Anatolians did help bring light features to the Ancient Mediterranean peoples (As sometimes depicted in artwork); was it the Sardinian-like ancestry that made them darker?

    Of course, the northern regions get an extra boost to the average, from celtic and northern European sources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Sardinians are the darkest people in Italy, as demonstrated by this map.

    I wonder, if it is true that the Copper Age/Bronze Age Anatolians did help bring light features to the Ancient Mediterranean peoples (As sometimes depicted in artwork); was it the Sardinian-like ancestry that made them darker?
    Artworks only become realistic with the Roman era. Hard to judge older artworks that reflect more certain tastes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Artworks only become realistic with the Roman era. Hard to judge older artworks that reflect more certain tastes.
    That is true.

    I don't think anyone is going to argue that lions had blue hair in the early bronze age.


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    I think I've found a new avatar. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    From the paper:



    9 of the 10 samples were haplogroup T. Nevertheless, the early dominate lineages of the Levant were E, who were overtaken by J in by the Bronze-Age.

    The Wilerslev paper is behind a paywall.

    Raveane et al shows that Anatolians arrived in the Bronze-age, not the IA. However, from the looks of the Wilerslev figure, Southern Europeans certainly went to and lived in central Anatolia in the IA; judging from the second sample.

    more info on this is that they originally came from modern georgia on the black sea and when they left the levant they went towards southern coastal turkey
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
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    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I've long thought that the presence of the blue eye gene in the Anatolian Neolithic may have come from the UHG, but so far as I know there's not enough data to prove that. It may be part of background variation in hunter gatherers related to the Villabruna group, because it wasn't present in the earlier hunter-gatherers of Europe. I'm not sure about the impact of selection. Again, so far as I know, no one has really found the environmental factor tied to selection for it. Perhaps social selection played a role.
    I know that this is an old post, but pre-Villabruna Europe belonged to a different HG population. So what if the entire UHG population is closely related to Villabruna cluster while older European HGs like Aurignacians weren't? This would explain why Villabruna + UHG cluster has blue eyes while the Aurignacian and in general non-Villabruna clusters didn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aleph View Post
    I know that this is an old post, but pre-Villabruna Europe belonged to a different HG population. So what if the entire UHG population is closely related to Villabruna cluster while older European HGs like Aurignacians weren't? This would explain why Villabruna + UHG cluster has blue eyes while the Aurignacian and in general non-Villabruna clusters didn't.
    Yes, that was what I was trying to say.

    Phenotype changes as new groups arrive. Whether the old phenotype survives is a question of the size of the new migration and, to some extent, to chance. Isolated areas will preserve it more.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I find it quite possible, even likely that the Afro-Asiatic linguistic component was originally absorbed by (or imposed onto) the Anatolian & Iranian ("northern") population that probably merged with Levant_Neolithic ones, hypothetically because they were highland immigrants in a more technologically advanced region or something like that. But that would've happened before the consolidation of a Proto-Semitic language and culture, before its expansion to other areas, probably still during the Late Neolithic,, and during that "gestation period" it's possible that the foreign elements eventually became dominant even before Proto-Semitic was spread elsewhere in the Fertile Crescent. I say that because I find it hard to believe that Afro-Asiatic came originally from too much north or east of the Levant, considering the distribution of the rest of the family (all other branches in Africa, some of them with possible older links to Southwest Asia, like Cushitic) and the heavy Natufian affinities in other heavily AA regions like North Africa and Egypt.
    Just found this thread now.

    Have to through my 2 cents into the room here.

    There are several reasons that speak against the idea that Semitic evolved further North. At least one major reason that would ultimately force us to place the origin of Egyptian further North too.

    Within the Afro Asiatic language family we have Semitic, Egyptian, Berber, Cushitic and Omotic. 4 of 5 of these are exclusively located in Africa. and 4 out of 5 are geographically very close to the South Levant. Within this family. Egyptian and Semitic have the closest relationship.


    Which means that these two must have seperated from each other the latest. Egyptian is also the only language that has clear Levant_Chl influx like Semites and shares with the Semites the only other major yDNA (J) other than E1b. Also it's not like Semites are J by large majority and therefore "unlikely for them to take the "language of the local non J's. South Levantines(Jordania as example which is the core for the hypothetical homeland) is as much E1b as it is J1.

    There is no reason to assume the original Semites came from further North and East if their close relatives live West of them and their closest relative has a very similar paternal yDNA admixture to them. So this Guys (herders) from the Northeast had to have likely arrived in the Levant before Semite and Egyptian split.

    And on top we have significant historic evidences which rather counter this idea. South of Mesopotamia was pretty much inhabidet by non Semite speaking Sumerians. Who are assumed to be derived from the Chalcolthic Ubaid period. When the Assyrians arrived in Mesopotamia they took over the former Sumerian lands and a huge influx on the Assyrian culture was visible. When the Assyrian King Assurbanipal invaded the North he called himself "King of the Gutian and Subarian lands".

    Which clearly implicates this region was not familiar to them to begin with.

    That is why the theory of a proto Afro_Asiatic homeland in the south of Levant from where the Berber, Omotic/Chadic speakers first split during the Neolithic makes more sense. The Proto Semitic/Egyptian speakers remained still behind until Iran Chalcolthic type people migrated into the region with new ideas and genes mixed into the population (The Egyptian Pyramids clearly influenced by common idea with the Mesopotamian Ziggurats). After that we see the split between Egyptians and Semitic. With the Proto Egyptian speakers moving into modern Egypt.

    Of course it is also possible that after the Chadic,Omotic and Berber people split away. A group of Proto Proto Semites moved further Northeast mixed with Iran_CHL like people moved than back into the South Levant and "infected" the Proto Egyptians" before they left for Egypt.

    The first theory looks allot more likely to me tbh.
    Last edited by Alan; 05-03-20 at 21:01.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigblob View Post
    Why do people on this site find blue eyes so surprising? Didn't the ancient Sumerians portray their people with fair skin and blue eyes?

    There is Deeper connection between Sumerians, Elamites and the Harrapans which all seem to be connected by Iran_N Dna. Those guys were pigmentationwise predominantly what we would call Olive skinned and dark haired/eyed. They even called themselves the "black heads".


    The Sumerians had sculptures with people in many different eye colors. Even reddish once. All it means is that the Sumerians knew people had different eye colors but just as the Greeks they probably even had a small % of people with these traits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigblob View Post
    This bullshit that ancient peoples of the Middle East and Egypt could not possibly have had blue eyes needs to end:

    https://www.livescience.com/63396-an...rkey-iran.html
    mate we literally have ancient Egyptian DNA at hand. And they do not look like your blue eyed guys. Of course if we had blue eyed people in the Levant why shouldn't it be possible to find blue eyed persons in Egypt too? but some of you sound like the Middle East was once full of blue eyes and completely replaced by brown. Not like Blue eyes existed in decent percentages before and still exist in similar number today.
    Here you have a modern Egyptian man with blue eyes
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3e/02...7664df09a6.jpg

    It's not like we suddenly have a very extreme genetic change in the Near East since these ancient Civilization. What the hell is wrong with you people? The genetic shifts we see in modern Near Easterners compares to the ancient once are predominantly from surrounding other Near East areas. And if there is one thing we have learned from ancient DNA, it is that the only "outside" admixture the regions where once we have seen these civilization came rather from the North.

    If anything modern Iranians, Anatolians, even Greeks and Italians are more "northern" shifted than Bronze or even Iron Age people of the same region. The only exception being the Egyptians who seem to have received a little Sub Saharan African admixture but still are like 92% derived from their ancestors.

    I mean, I see some guy make the assumption that the frequency of blue eyes went so far down possibly because of Iran_N admixture, in one post.
    Just to show sculptures of Sumerians with "blue eyes" in another. Totally missing the fact that these Sumerians have a heavy connection to the Iranian Plateau themselves via the Jiroft culture and this very region most likely being the source of the Iran_CHL dna in the Levant_CHL. You see the paradoxon here? Also for the people who might have missed or forgotten it.

    One of the Iran_N samples had the mutation for blue eyes in OCA2/HERC2 too. So it's not like it was completely absent with them. Take in mind the genetic flow into the Levant was from Iran_CHL, who had a slightly different pigmentation profile.

    blue eyes and pigmentation are defined by few SNP's. Some blue eyed Lebanese who is genetically identical to his brown eyed brother will still be simply a Lebanese.

    And why are some people here calling Natufians light skinned and eyed? Did I miss something?
    Last edited by Alan; 05-03-20 at 21:08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    There is Deeper connection between Sumerians, Elamites and the Harrapans which all seem to be connected by Iran_N Dna. Those guys were pigmentationwise predominantly what we would call Olive skinned and dark haired/eyed. They even called themselves the "black heads".


    The Sumerians had sculptures with people in many different eye colors. Even reddish once. All it means is that the Sumerians knew people had different eye colors but just as the Greeks they probably even had a small % of people with these traits.
    can be true

    the egyptians paintings had, libyans as white skin, nubians as black skin and themselves as brown skin ................so there is always a high % of truth in these sculptures etc

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