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Thread: 6.5 ka Levantine chalcolithic DNA

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    Wait, is the Violet admixture in Sidelkino Anatolian Neolithic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Perhaps the occasional depiction of fair features in ancient Mediterranean people doesn't necessarily have to come from Northern European sources. Because they were present in people coming in from Anatolia who had them as early as the copper age. The Bronze-Age Anatolian who spread west, that are exclusive of the ones that went down into the Levant; would probably have these features too. I don't think it was the norm phenotypically, but the mutations were there.
    True, but it also somehow contradicte the hypothesis that Fair Features are an evolutionary trait. One explanation that fair features would come from Anatolia, would be that Anatolia had a very continental/cold climate + farming diet, because then what's the evolutionary purpose of losing pigmentation? It would be like a coincidence that a depigmentation process occured in a warm climate then fixed itself in a more temperate/cold one by chance. My guess, with the only few samples we have, fair features in Anatolia came from a founder effect, younger than the real mutations. It was positively selected after it. There is actually plenty of fair mesolithic europeans, the calls made by people like Genetiker were never confirmed by the authors of the studies for weird reasons. They could have review their studies and confirm or infirm the calls made. Then we can just say " he is an amateur, he is wrong " and we miss big pictures of the hypothesis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    True, but it also somehow contradicte the hypothesis that Fair Features are an evolutionary trait. One explanation that fair features would come from Anatolia, would be that Anatolia had a very continental/cold climate + farming diet, because then what's the evolutionary purpose of losing pigmentation? It would be like a coincidence that a depigmentation process occured in a warm climate then fixed itself in a more temperate/cold one by chance. My guess, with the only few samples we have, fair features in Anatolia came from a founder effect, younger than the real mutations. It was positively selected after it. There is actually plenty of fair mesolithic europeans, the calls made by people like Genetiker were never confirmed by the authors of the studies for weird reasons. They could have review their studies and confirm or infirm the calls made. Then we can just say " he is an amateur, he is wrong " and we miss big pictures of the hypothesis.
    Latitude might be a weak predictor of depigmentation, especially as far as hair and eye color are concerned. What advantage does blond hair confer? Even with skin it isn't that obvious. Central Siberians don't look much lighter than Levantines for instance (I suspect the opposite might be the case if you account for tanning).

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Latitude might be a weak predictor of depigmentation, especially as far as hair and eye color are concerned. What advantage does blond hair confer? Even with skin it isn't that obvious. Central Siberians don't look much lighter than Levantines for instance (I suspect the opposite might be the case if you account for tanning).
    Hypothesis, i have plenty, but none were ever tested or even considered, so for now we only have the history they told us, until it gonna inevitably change with new samples, new scientists, new technics, new knowledges etc.

    But to counter, what advantage does Farmer diet gives to the selection of this feature? Because Farmers eated plenty of animal food and there is no correlation between genes for fair hairs and fair skin with farmer diet because they were found in early samples unrelated with neolithic. It's not like gluten stops pigmentation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Hypothesis, i have plenty, but none were ever tested or even considered, so for now we only have the history they told us, until it gonna inevitably change with new samples, new scientists, new technics, new knowledges etc.

    But to counter, what advantage does Farmer diet gives to the selection of this feature? Because Farmers eated plenty of animal food and there is no correlation between genes for fair hairs and fair skin with farmer diet because they were found in early samples unrelated with neolithic. It's not like gluten stops pigmentation.
    It might have nothing to do with agriculture. See the blond tropical horticulturalists in Melanesia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    It might have nothing to do with agriculture. See the blond tropical horticulturalists in Melanesia.
    So what does ( apparently ) two different genes who are stopping the melanine process tells us about it? Some sort of Esthetical Same-Specie convergent evolution? I dont buy it.

    Why is there Blue Eyes in some Wolves and Foxes if this is a recessive trait and probably always was a minority. Do Wolves and Foxes understand Esthetics? Both Species are Monogamous, are they searching for the perfect mate, just like Humans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    So what does ( apparently ) two different genes who are stopping the melanine process tells us about it? Some sort of Esthetical Same-Specie convergent evolution? I dont buy it.

    Why is there Blue Eyes in some Wolves and Foxes if this is a recessive trait and probably always was a minority. Do Wolves and Foxes understand Esthetics? Both Species are Monogamous, are they searching for the perfect mate, just like Humans?
    So why couldn't Near Easterners have been fair?

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    So why couldn't Near Easterners have been fair?
    Near Easterners is like talking of WHG from Spain and EHG from Karelia as something related. Natufians, Anatolians HG, CHG, Iran HG, were all different groups more divergent than WHG and EHG. It's also different to say " Near Easterners at some point had fair features " wich is fair enough. To say, " fair features came from neolithic farmers ". Wich the latter is used by scientists in studies.

    I'm always so bugged how people are taking conclusions. If you need to put up 100 studies in your life and each one contradict the previous, it's then conclusions are probably not needed for the time being.

    Also if Fair Features are unrelated at all with climate or latitudes, why then was it positively selected in high latitudes, pure sapiens coincidence going along evolutionary incidences? Surely not. Those few years studies have open way too much questions that scientists can respond to.

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    I guess somebody thought my reputation was becoming too high for what i worth...

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    Quote Originally Posted by suyindik View Post
    I can see in the figure that CA and EBA/MLBA Anatolia have similar proportions, but how did you make the link between them and the CA Peqi'in population? Is there any data/analysis showing this?
    And the CA Peqi'in population was said to be migrants of Northern Mesopotamia, meaning from probably the regions of South-Eastern-Turkey, Syria and Iraq.
    The CA Anatolia sample seems to be from Central/Western Turkey. Does this mean there was another group of migration from Northern Mesopotamia into Central/Western Turkey during the Chalcolithic period? And these people were genetically different from the Neolithic Anatolia samples? Which Y-DNA is associated with these groups?
    And could these people have made migrations into the Italian Peninsula during the Iron Age?
    From the paper:

    Our finding that the Levant_ChL population can be well-modeled as a three-way admixture between Levant_N (57%), Anatolia_N (26%), and Iran_ChL (17%), while the Levant_BA_South can be modeled as a mixture of Levant_N (58%) and Iran_ChL (42%), but has little if any additional Anatolia_N-related ancestry, can only be explained by multiple episodes of population movement. The presence of Iran_ChL-related ancestry in both populations – but not in the earlier Levant_N – suggests a history of spread into the Levant of peoples related to Iranian agriculturalists, which must have occurred at least by the time of the Chalcolithic. The Anatolian_N component present in the Levant_ChL but not in the Levant_BA_South sample suggests that there was also a separate spread of Anatolian-related people into the region. The Levant_BA_South population may thus represent a remnant of a population that formed after an initial spread of Iran_ChL-related ancestry into the Levant that was not affected by the spread of an Anatolia_N-related population, or perhaps a reintroduction of a population without Anatolia_N-related ancestry to the region. We additionally find that the Levant_ChL population does not serve as a likely source of the Levantine-related ancestry in present-day East African populations (see Supplementary Note 4)24.
    9 of the 10 samples were haplogroup T. Nevertheless, the early dominate lineages of the Levant were E, who were overtaken by J in by the Bronze-Age.

    The Wilerslev paper is behind a paywall.

    Raveane et al shows that Anatolians arrived in the Bronze-age, not the IA. However, from the looks of the Wilerslev figure, Southern Europeans certainly went to and lived in central Anatolia in the IA; judging from the second sample.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    From the paper:



    9 of the 10 samples were haplogroup T. Nevertheless, the early dominate lineages of the Levant were E, who were overtaken by J in by the Bronze-Age.
    What I meant was that the ancient dna studies with Y-DNA from Neolithic Central/Western Anatolia found Y-haplogroups like C(AHG), G, H, J. There was no T found in Neolithic Central/Western Anatolia.
    So it seems to me that the genetics of Neolithic Central/Western Anatolia and Eastern Anatolia/Mesopotamia could be different. Maybe T is major in Neolithic Eastern Anatolia/Mesopotamia(Maybe this is from where the Peqi'in population came from?)?
    And in the graph you shared, Neolithic Central/Western Anatolia and Copper Age(Chalcolithic) Central/Western Anatolia are different from each other. Could this mean that migrations from Neolithic Eastern Anatolia/Mesopotamia happened into Central/Western Anatolia during the Copper Age?

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    Quote Originally Posted by suyindik View Post
    What I meant was that the ancient dna studies with Y-DNA from Neolithic Central/Western Anatolia found Y-haplogroups like C(AHG), G, H, J. There was no T found in Neolithic Central/Western Anatolia.
    So it seems to me that the genetics of Neolithic Central/Western Anatolia and Eastern Anatolia/Mesopotamia could be different. Maybe T is major in Neolithic Eastern Anatolia/Mesopotamia(Maybe this is from where the Peqi'in population came from?)?
    And in the graph you shared, Neolithic Central/Western Anatolia and Copper Age(Chalcolithic) Central/Western Anatolia are different from each other. Could this mean that migrations from Neolithic Eastern Anatolia/Mesopotamia happened into Central/Western Anatolia during the Copper Age?
    I wish I was able to access the Willerslev paper to be able to have a more insight.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    13. Copper Age Anatolia (3800 BC) (15.89) - I0184
    14. Hittite Anatolia (1875 BC) (15.93) - MA2208

    Interestingly, I'm slightly closer to Copper-Age Anatolian, than to Bronze-Age Anatolian Hittite in the mytrueancestry samples. Unfortunately, they didn't link the study for I0184.

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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    13. Copper Age Anatolia (3800 BC) (15.89) - I0184
    14. Hittite Anatolia (1875 BC) (15.93) - MA2208
    Interestingly, I'm slightly closer to Copper-Age Anatolian, than to Bronze-Age Anatolian Hittite in the mytrueancestry samples. Unfortunately, they didn't link the study for I0184.
    Combined: (23 v5, Anc, Liv.DNA, NG Helix):
    14. Hittite Anatolia (1875 BC) (17.41) - MA2208
    18. Copper Age Anatolia (3800 BC) (19.71) - I0184

    23andme v4:

    15. Hittite Anatolia (1875 BC) (17.36) - MA2208
    18. Copper Age Anatolia (3800 BC) (19.79) - I0184

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    Sardinians are the darkest people in Italy, as demonstrated by this map.

    I wonder, if it is true that the Copper Age/Bronze Age Anatolians did help bring light features to the Ancient Mediterranean peoples (As sometimes depicted in artwork); was it the Sardinian-like ancestry that made them darker?

    Of course, the northern regions get an extra boost to the average, from celtic and northern European sources.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Sardinians are the darkest people in Italy, as demonstrated by this map.

    I wonder, if it is true that the Copper Age/Bronze Age Anatolians did help bring light features to the Ancient Mediterranean peoples (As sometimes depicted in artwork); was it the Sardinian-like ancestry that made them darker?
    Artworks only become realistic with the Roman era. Hard to judge older artworks that reflect more certain tastes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Artworks only become realistic with the Roman era. Hard to judge older artworks that reflect more certain tastes.
    That is true.

    I don't think anyone is going to argue that lions had blue hair in the early bronze age.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I think I've found a new avatar. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    From the paper:



    9 of the 10 samples were haplogroup T. Nevertheless, the early dominate lineages of the Levant were E, who were overtaken by J in by the Bronze-Age.

    The Wilerslev paper is behind a paywall.

    Raveane et al shows that Anatolians arrived in the Bronze-age, not the IA. However, from the looks of the Wilerslev figure, Southern Europeans certainly went to and lived in central Anatolia in the IA; judging from the second sample.

    more info on this is that they originally came from modern georgia on the black sea and when they left the levant they went towards southern coastal turkey
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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