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Thread: Avar (in fact Slavic?) Women from Szolad (Hungary) on GEDmatch

  1. #1
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
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    Avars [mom, son & dad] from Szolad (Hungary) on GEDmatch

    GEDmatch Genesis kit: FP8983383


    This is sample AV2, which plots between Latvia and Ukraine on PCA graph:











    Eurogenes K15 results:


    Admix Results (sorted):


    # Population Percent
    1 Baltic 32.91
    2 North_Sea 22.32
    3 Atlantic 20.8
    4 Eastern_Euro 19
    5 West_Med 4.96


    Single Population Sharing:


    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Belorussian 5.28
    2 Polish 5.62
    3 Estonian_Polish 5.92
    4 Lithuanian 6.53
    5 Russian_Smolensk 6.72
    6 Estonian 7.03
    7 South_Polish 8.01
    8 Southwest_Russian 8.63
    9 Ukrainian 9
    10 Ukrainian_Belgorod 9.51
    11 Ukrainian_Lviv 9.8
    12 Kargopol_Russian 13.08
    13 Southwest_Finnish 13.24
    14 Finnish 13.34
    15 Croatian 13.93
    16 East_Finnish 14.23
    17 La_Brana-1 14.94
    18 Erzya 15.69
    19 Hungarian 15.71
    20 East_German 16.04


    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 87.4% Lithuanian + 12.6% French_Basque @ 3.07
    2 82.6% Lithuanian + 17.4% Southwest_English @ 3.41
    3 82.2% Lithuanian + 17.8% Irish @ 3.41
    4 82.5% Lithuanian + 17.5% Southeast_English @ 3.44
    5 82.7% Lithuanian + 17.3% West_Scottish @ 3.48
    6 85.6% Lithuanian + 14.4% Southwest_French @ 3.68
    7 84.1% Lithuanian + 15.9% Orcadian @ 3.74
    8 81.9% Lithuanian + 18.1% South_Dutch @ 3.77
    9 81.9% Lithuanian + 18.1% Danish @ 3.77
    10 82.1% Lithuanian + 17.9% North_Dutch @ 3.79
    11 80.5% Lithuanian + 19.5% North_German @ 3.81
    12 87% Lithuanian + 13% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.81
    13 86.4% Lithuanian + 13.6% Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.82
    14 86% Lithuanian + 14% Spanish_Cataluna @ 4.02
    15 84.3% Lithuanian + 15.7% French @ 4.03
    16 87.2% Lithuanian + 12.8% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.05
    17 87% Lithuanian + 13% Spanish_Valencia @ 4.08
    18 86.4% Lithuanian + 13.6% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 4.09
    19 75.4% Lithuanian + 24.6% East_German @ 4.13
    20 82.5% Lithuanian + 17.5% Norwegian @ 4.2


    Least squares method:


    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Lithuanian +50% Polish @ 5.078148


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Lithuanian +25% Lithuanian +25% North_German @ 4.705094


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 Irish + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 4.696088
    2 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + North_German @ 4.705094
    3 East_German + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 4.802095
    4 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Southeast_English @ 4.809388
    5 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Southwest_English @ 4.827683
    6 Belorussian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.865958
    7 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + West_Scottish @ 4.878822
    8 Estonian_Polish + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.887828
    9 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Polish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.913035
    10 Danish + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 4.918229
    11 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + South_Dutch @ 4.930092
    12 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.934663
    13 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + North_Dutch @ 4.992850
    14 Belorussian + East_German + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 5.049150
    15 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Russian_Smolensk + Southwest_Finnish @ 5.053496
    16 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Polish + Polish @ 5.078148
    17 East_German + Estonian_Polish + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 5.095880
    18 Belorussian + Belorussian + Lithuanian + Southwest_Finnish @ 5.129863
    19 Estonian_Polish + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + North_German @ 5.135816
    20 Estonian + Lithuanian + Polish + Polish @ 5.141577

    =====

    EDIT:

    Big surprise!:

    They are not two women, AV1 is a male (his Y-DNA R1b-L51), and he is a son of female AV2:

    "The two Avars are parent/child (one female other male) and they come from Szolad, in Hungary."

    AV1 (son of AV2) Gedmatch Genesis kit number - PE7910098

    So it is possible to estimate father's GEDmatch results, if we have both son's and mother's kits.

    Estimated K36 results of AV0 (father), based on results of mother AV2 and her son AV1:





    ^^^ Enter the results here: http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm
    Last edited by Tomenable; 23-08-18 at 19:34. Reason: big surprise

  2. #2
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Eurogenes K13 for AV2:


    Admix Results (sorted):


    # Population Percent
    1 Baltic 50.53
    2 North_Atlantic 34.13
    3 West_Med 10.93
    4 West_Asian 2.5
    5 East_Med 1.72
    6 Amerindian 0.19


    Single Population Sharing:


    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Estonian 5.69
    2 Belorussian 6.4
    3 Polish 6.56
    4 Lithuanian 6.8
    5 Estonian_Polish 6.84
    6 Russian_Smolensk 7.11
    7 Finnish 9.45
    8 Southwest_Finnish 9.72
    9 South_Polish 9.75
    10 Ukrainian 9.75
    11 Southwest_Russian 10.04
    12 Ukrainian_Belgorod 10.56
    13 Ukrainian_Lviv 11.27
    14 East_Finnish 11.29
    15 Kargopol_Russian 11.8
    16 Erzya 14.94
    17 North_Swedish 16.26
    18 Croatian 16.7
    19 La_Brana-1 17.45
    20 East_German 17.64


    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 89.2% Lithuanian + 10.8% French_Basque @ 3.48
    2 84% Lithuanian + 16% Southwest_English @ 3.76
    3 83.4% Lithuanian + 16.6% Southeast_English @ 3.85
    4 83.1% Lithuanian + 16.9% Orcadian @ 3.92
    5 84% Lithuanian + 16% West_Scottish @ 3.96
    6 83.7% Lithuanian + 16.3% Irish @ 3.99
    7 81.5% Lithuanian + 18.5% Norwegian @ 4.02
    8 82.3% Lithuanian + 17.7% North_Dutch @ 4.04
    9 87.6% Lithuanian + 12.4% Southwest_French @ 4.11
    10 79.6% Lithuanian + 20.4% Swedish @ 4.12
    11 82.4% Lithuanian + 17.6% Danish @ 4.14
    12 89% Lithuanian + 11% Spanish_Aragon @ 4.28
    13 83.9% Lithuanian + 16.1% South_Dutch @ 4.31
    14 88.2% Lithuanian + 11.8% Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.32
    15 81.8% Lithuanian + 18.2% North_German @ 4.36
    16 75.1% Lithuanian + 24.9% North_Swedish @ 4.41
    17 88.2% Lithuanian + 11.8% Spanish_Cataluna @ 4.49
    18 86.2% Lithuanian + 13.8% French @ 4.5
    19 77% Lithuanian + 23% East_German @ 4.5
    20 89% Lithuanian + 11% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.52


    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Estonian +50% Polish @ 5.101871


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Lithuanian +25% Lithuanian +25% Swedish @ 4.730288


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Swedish @ 4.730288
    2 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + North_Swedish @ 4.787990
    3 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Polish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.906940
    4 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Norwegian @ 4.939054
    5 East_German + Estonian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 4.945129
    6 Estonian + Lithuanian + Polish + Southwest_Finnish @ 5.024350
    7 Estonian_Polish + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + North_Swedish @ 5.041535
    8 Estonian + Estonian + Estonian + Polish @ 5.073626
    9 Estonian + Estonian + Lithuanian + Polish @ 5.081187
    10 Estonian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + North_Swedish @ 5.087455
    11 Belorussian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + North_Swedish @ 5.094791
    12 East_German + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 5.094831
    13 Estonian + Estonian + Polish + Polish @ 5.101871
    14 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + North_Swedish + Polish @ 5.117949
    15 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + North_Dutch @ 5.148608
    16 Estonian + Estonian + Lithuanian + South_Polish @ 5.205658
    17 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + North_Swedish + Russian_Smolensk @ 5.206207
    18 Belorussian + Estonian + Estonian + Polish @ 5.241266
    19 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + South_Polish + Southwest_Finnish @ 5.243180
    20 Danish + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 5.251402

  3. #3
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    AV2 is intermediate between Belarus and East Mazovia. In K13 even close to Estonia. But in K36 it does not have enough Fennoscandian to be close to Estonia. The reason why in K13 it is closer to Estonia is likely because this calc is worse at differentiating Balts from Baltic Finns.

    Later I will post AV1 GEDmatch and we will see what the differences between AV2 and AV1 are.

    In PCA Graph from the study, AV1 appears more southern-shifted (less Baltic-shifted) than AV2. AV2 plots between Latvia and Ukraine, east of Poland. GEDmatch results confirm this location (Belarus 1st in K15). AV1 plotsmore to the south (shifted in direction of the Balkans).

    AV1 will probably be closer to Ukrainians than to Belarusians, we shall see.

    Avars were "marrying" Slavic (and other Europeean) women.

    It seems that these samples are just 100% Slavic "wifes" of Avars, not mixed Avaro-Slavs.

    They do not have any Mongoloid admixture, as you can see.

  4. #4
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    @LeBrok, HarappaWorld results of AV2:

    Admix Results (sorted):


    # Population Percent
    1 NE-Euro 63.29
    2 Mediterranean 21.55
    3 Caucasian 8.55
    4 Baloch 5.36
    5 American 0.75
    6 Beringian 0.24
    7 SE-Asian 0.16
    8 W-African 0.11


    Single Population Sharing:


    # Population (source) Distance
    1 belorussian (behar) 5.63
    2 ukranian (yunusbayev) 7.23
    3 russian (behar) 9.15
    4 lithuanian (behar) 10.38
    5 mordovian (yunusbayev) 11.26
    6 russian (hgdp) 11.84
    7 slovenian (xing) 12.95
    8 n-european (xing) 13.2
    9 utahn-white (hapmap) 14.17
    10 hungarian (behar) 14.64
    11 utahn-white (1000genomes) 16.33
    12 orcadian (hgdp) 16.57
    13 british (1000genomes) 17.29
    14 french (hgdp) 23.91
    15 finnish (1000genomes) 24.19
    16 chuvash (behar) 25.47
    17 romanian-a (behar) 29.39
    18 bulgarian (yunusbayev) 31.09
    19 spaniard (behar) 35.86
    20 italian (hgdp) 36.72


    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 85.6% lithuanian (behar) + 14.4% sardinian (hgdp) @ 2.21
    2 78.4% lithuanian (behar) + 21.6% italian (hgdp) @ 2.49
    3 90.1% belorussian (behar) + 9.9% basque (hgdp) @ 2.7
    4 89.8% belorussian (behar) + 10.2% spain-basc (henn2012) @ 2.8
    5 77.1% belorussian (behar) + 22.9% orcadian (hgdp) @ 2.88
    6 77.9% belorussian (behar) + 22.1% british (1000genomes) @ 2.88
    7 77.2% belorussian (behar) + 22.8% utahn-white (1000genomes) @ 3.03
    8 78.3% lithuanian (behar) + 21.7% spaniard (behar) @ 3.04
    9 73.1% belorussian (behar) + 26.9% n-european (xing) @ 3.08
    10 70.5% lithuanian (behar) + 29.5% french (hgdp) @ 3.11
    11 78.8% lithuanian (behar) + 21.2% spaniard (1000genomes) @ 3.2
    12 59.2% lithuanian (behar) + 40.8% hungarian (behar) @ 3.27
    13 56% lithuanian (behar) + 44% slovenian (xing) @ 3.46
    14 80.9% lithuanian (behar) + 19.1% tuscan (hapmap) @ 3.47
    15 84.7% belorussian (behar) + 15.3% french (hgdp) @ 3.66
    16 81.2% lithuanian (behar) + 18.8% tuscan (1000genomes) @ 3.7
    17 56.7% lithuanian (behar) + 43.3% n-european (xing) @ 3.73
    18 89.9% belorussian (behar) + 10.1% spaniard (1000genomes) @ 3.85
    19 66.1% russian (behar) + 33.9% orcadian (hgdp) @ 3.91
    20 94% belorussian (behar) + 6% sardinian (hgdp) @ 4.1


    Least squares method:


    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% lithuanian_behar +50% slovenian_xing @ 3.993384



    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% belorussian_behar +25% lithuanian_behar +25% utahn-white_1000genomes @ 2.839190


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 french_hgdp + lithuanian_behar + lithuanian_behar + russian_behar @ 2.621542
    2 belorussian_behar + french_hgdp + lithuanian_behar + lithuanian_behar @ 2.686064
    3 belorussian_behar + belorussian_behar + lithuanian_behar + utahn-white_1000genomes @ 2.839190
    4 belorussian_behar + belorussian_behar + british_1000genomes + lithuanian_behar @ 2.976717
    5 belorussian_behar + british_1000genomes + lithuanian_behar + russian_behar @ 2.990195
    6 belorussian_behar + belorussian_behar + lithuanian_behar + n-european_xing @ 3.001669
    7 belorussian_behar + belorussian_behar + lithuanian_behar + utahn-white_hapmap @ 3.029799
    8 belorussian_behar + lithuanian_behar + russian_behar + utahn-white_1000genomes @ 3.042349
    9 lithuanian_behar + lithuanian_behar + n-european_xing + slovenian_xing @ 3.078277
    10 belorussian_behar + belorussian_behar + belorussian_behar + orcadian_hgdp @ 3.136055
    11 belorussian_behar + belorussian_behar + belorussian_behar + utahn-white_hapmap @ 3.154723
    12 belorussian_behar + belorussian_behar + belorussian_behar + british_1000genomes @ 3.177053
    13 italian_hgdp + lithuanian_behar + lithuanian_behar + lithuanian_behar @ 3.185410
    14 belorussian_behar + lithuanian_behar + ukranian_yunusbayev + utahn-white_hapmap @ 3.234362
    15 belorussian_behar + lithuanian_behar + n-european_xing + ukranian_yunusbayev @ 3.238754
    16 belorussian_behar + belorussian_behar + french_hgdp + lithuanian_behar @ 3.263435
    17 belorussian_behar + lithuanian_behar + russian_behar + utahn-white_hapmap @ 3.267936
    18 lithuanian_behar + lithuanian_behar + slovenian_xing + utahn-white_hapmap @ 3.269408
    19 belorussian_behar + belorussian_behar + belorussian_behar + utahn-white_1000genomes @ 3.296774
    20 belorussian_behar + belorussian_behar + belorussian_behar + n-european_xing @ 3.325622

  5. #5
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    Big surprise!:

    They are not two women, AV1 is a male (his Y-DNA R1b-L51), and he is a son of female AV2:

    "The two Avars are parent/child (one female other male) and they come from Szolad, in Hungary."

    AV1 (son of AV2) Gedmatch Genesis kit number - PE7910098

    So it is possible to estimate father's GEDmatch results, if we have both son's and mother's kits.

    Estimated K36 results of AV0 (father), based on results of mother AV2 and her son AV1:



    ^^^ Enter the results here: http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    @LeBrok, HarappaWorld results of AV2:

    Admix Results (sorted):


    # Population Percent
    1 NE-Euro 63.29
    2 Mediterranean 21.55
    3 Caucasian 8.55
    4 Baloch 5.36
    5 American 0.75
    6 Beringian 0.24
    7 SE-Asian 0.16
    8 W-African 0.11

    Yeh, incredible find. She does plot very close to modern Belarusian with a bit more Mediterranean admixture, closer to Polish. Could she be the pure Slav just at the time they started expansion?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Both PE7910098 and FP8983383 show error in gedmatch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Could she be the pure Slav just at the time they started expansion?
    One Hungarian user on another forum (his nickname is Blogen, he is actually active under this nickname on several forums AFAIK) claims the cemetery where she was buried was Avaro-Germanic in terms of material culture and that she was probably Germanic not Slavic.

    4-Ancestors Oracle shows 3 x Balts (Lithuania etc.) + 1 x Germanic, but I thought these could be typical Proto-Slavic results (generally Slavs tend to plot between Balts and Germanics, and Germanics between Celts and Slavs - at least on Davidski's Northern Europe PCA).

    I doubt that Proto-Slavs were autosomally 100% like modern Lithuanians and Latvians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Big surprise!:

    They are not two women, AV1 is a male (his Y-DNA R1b-L51), and he is a son of female AV2:

    "The two Avars are parent/child (one female other male) and they come from Szolad, in Hungary."

    AV1 (son of AV2) Gedmatch Genesis kit number - PE7910098

    So it is possible to estimate father's GEDmatch results, if we have both son's and mother's kits.

    Estimated K36 results of AV0 (father), based on results of mother AV2 and her son AV1:



    ^^^ Enter the results here: http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm
    it's only a proxi: every person can give descendants more than a kit of chromosomes and it's not sure every kit will contain exactly a balanced pannel of ancestors so of genes (even chromosomes are partly modified in the process of metose-meiose) - so even if we know the supposed composition of the mum, we cannot be sure of the exact mixture passed to her son, and a fortiori the exact mixture passed by the dad; it's true that the huge number of genes in cause limits the possible variations for every subcomponent, but it's not an hard science, I think.

  10. #10
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Blogen's comments:

    Quote Originally Posted by Blogen
    Szólád was a typical Avaro-Germanic population. The Germanic elements were the remains of the Langobards, maybe mixed with Gepids or Avaro-Gepids. The genetic connection with the contemporary Slavs is very simple: they assimilated massive Germanic elements from the times of the early Slavonic expansion. For example the present territory of Poland was fully Germanic before the Slavonic expansion.

    There were sporadic Slavonic population in the Carpathian basin in the early Avar age. But this era was the time of the massive Avaro-Germanic admixture, basically the early Avars were a Avaro-Germanic folk, with steppic origin material culture! The genetic similarity of the Eastern-Germanic tribes with the contemporary Lithuanian, Polish, Belorussian population is not a surprise, based on the facts about their homeland, the Wielbark culture and their migration in Eastern Europe:



    We have cemeteries from the early Avar age with full of Germanic wifes (mixed clothing, jewelry, fully Germanic racial types). This admixture was totally common in the khaganate, because the Avars fully integrated the Germans after the conquest. They were a substantial and because of this equal military element for the Avars. And the intermarriage with the rich Avar males was profitable for the common Germanic womens (the aristocracy fled, these Germans were the common Germanic peoples of their former kingdom).

    Chronology:

    early Avar-age: 567-670
    The Avars ruled everything around the Carpathians, the Slavs lived mostly outside the basin. The main elements of the basin's population were the Avars and Germans

    late Avar-age: 720-805
    The Avars ruled only the basin, massive Slavonic elements settled inside the basin, the Avars slowly assimilated lot of Slavonic elements.

    postAvar age: 805-895
    The remains of the defeated Avars lived with the Slavs: the Avaro-Slav cultures

    (...)

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