Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 23 of 23

Thread: What was the ethnicity(ies) of Bronze Age Lusatian culture?

  1. #1
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,582
    Points
    66,418
    Level
    79
    Points: 66,418, Level: 79
    Level completed: 98%, Points required for next Level: 32
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    1 members found this post helpful.

    What was the ethnicity(ies) of Bronze Age Lusatian culture?



    Recently they found another settlement of this culture in North-Eastern Poland:


    http://naukawpolsce.pap.pl/aktualnos...-biskupin.html


    Traces of a defensive settlement from around 2500 years ago, ie from the times of castles such as Biskupin, were discovered in Jatwiai Duża in the Suchowola commune (Podlasie) say archaeologists from the Podlasie Museum in Białystok.


    "We are dealing with a large defensive object. This is such a maidade that was perhaps somehow used economically. There are traces of at least four cavities on this Maidan, of which one of the objects is very deep.This cellar probably served for storage some materials, "Wawrusiewicz told PAP. On Thursday, another two cellars were discovered. The tests will take a few more days.


    "However, in the excavations themselves, what confirms and indicates the chronology of this object, are primarily mobile sources [eg, historic objects - PAP], which we have here in quite a large amount" - says Wawrusiewicz and lists the found fragments of vessels from late Bronze Age associated with the Lusatian culture, dozens of flint products, which also come from this era.


    The archaeologist added that the scientists will only deal with the exact time of establishment and functioning of the settlement. He explained that archaeologists have secured a lot of samples that will be subjected to detailed research using the so-called radiocarbon (C14), i.e. measurement of the radioactive content of C14 carbon isotope in such samples.

    Extent of the Bronze Age Lusatian culture compared to modern political borders:





    Documentary about Biskupin, the largest (of all discovered so far) fortified town of the Lusatian Culture:



  2. #2
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,582
    Points
    66,418
    Level
    79
    Points: 66,418, Level: 79
    Level completed: 98%, Points required for next Level: 32
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Isn't it amazing how the area of the Lusatian Culture almost perfectly overlaps with Medieval West Slavic lands?

    One exception here is Mecklenburg. But West Ukrainians are actually West (not East) Slavs, at least genetically.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Lusatian culture became really expansive in the Iron Age and spread to both Ukraine and Germany. I personally think the connection to Balto-Slavic that's been proposed is rather unlikely, because BS is too diverged from Germanc & Celtic and so forth to have developed from the same Urnfield complex. Unfortunately I believe that we may never know which languages the many cultures of Northern Europe spoke - there were probably many that just became extinct at one point.

    Edit: The question in my mind also would be if Slavic came from the West as you allude to, what were the ethnicities of the Bronze Age cultures in Ukraine, Belarus and the adjacent parts of Russia? Did CWC simply not leave any linguistic and cultural descendants in Europe, meaning all Central European dialects derive from BB?

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    I imagine the people there as looking something like Kashubians. That being said, a quick skimming of Wikipedia basically says nobody knows.

  5. #5
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,582
    Points
    66,418
    Level
    79
    Points: 66,418, Level: 79
    Level completed: 98%, Points required for next Level: 32
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    because BS is too diverged from Germanc & Celtic and so forth to have developed from the same Urnfield complex.
    Didn't at least the eastern half of Lusatian Culture develop from the earlier Trzciniec complex?:

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig1_318542836

    "Spatial range of the Trzciniec cultural circle" (map from the paper linked above, Figure 1):


  6. #6
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,582
    Points
    66,418
    Level
    79
    Points: 66,418, Level: 79
    Level completed: 98%, Points required for next Level: 32
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    too diverged from Germanc & Celtic and so forth to have developed from the same Urnfield complex.
    Celtic did not develop from the Urnfield complex, it predates Urnfield (according to recent linguistic publications). It seems that ethnogenesis and expansion of the Celts took place already in the Bronze Age (not during the Iron Age as thought previously). This is in line with ancieng DNA findings too.

    One user on Polish history forum cited recent linguistic publications which push back the age of Celtic languages:

    http://www.historycy.org/index.php?s...&#entry1749127

    pierwszą fazę indoeuropeizacji Półwyspu Iberyjskiego, reprezentowaną przez inskrypcje luzytańskie należy cofnąć w praktyce na wczesną epokę brązu
    ^^^
    "The first phase of Indo-Europeization of the Iberian Peninsula, represented by Lusitanian inscriptions, has to be dated back to the Early Bronze Age."

    przodkowie Keltiberów wedle językoznawców, oddzielili się od reszty Keltów jeszcze przed powstaniem zachodniej grupy kultury pól popielnicowych
    ^^^
    "Ancestors of Celtiberians, according to linguists, split from the rest of Celts already before the emergence of the Western Group of Urnfield Culture."

    And here something in English, "The Language of the Ancient Lusitanians":

    https://www.academia.edu/9563554/The...nt_Lusitanians

    Recent research on the chronology of Celtic expansion:

    "(...) Chapter 9 gives a short description of the problem of the western expansions of the Indo-European tribes. The chronology of the Celtic invasions into the Hispanic Peninsula is reviewed. The present author accepts the hypothesis that the migration) of the Proto-Lusitanian tribes preceded all the Celtic invasions. He suggests (after Jan G. P. Best’s earlier proposal) that the proto-Lusitanian tribes were representatives of the so called Beaker culture, dating to 2600-1900 BC. This archaeological culture is found intermittently across Western Europe, from Ireland east to Hungary, and from Denmark south to Sicily (see map 20). According to James P. Mallory, the Beaker culture “has often been associated with the Indo- Europeans since there are good reasons to derive it from the area of the earlier Corded Ware culture (The Netherlands / Rhineland region is probably the most widely accepted), which is frequently regarded as early Indo-European. [...] Beakers are also sometimes linked with the spread of the domestic horse (in Ireland and parts of Iberia, for example), solar symbolism, weaponry, and the introduction of early metallurgy - all seen as Indo-European traits”. The findings of the Beaker culture in ancient Lusitania are abundant, so the hypothesis seems to be correct. What is more, the distribution of the late phase of the Beaker culture in the Hispanic Peninsula agrees with the distribution of the Indo-European place-names ending with -briga 'hill, castle (in the hill), town, city’ (see map 22), whereas the Iberian culture called El Argar connects with the distribution of the non-Indo-European place names beginning with Ili-, Ilti-. It is possible to suggest that the proto-Lusitanian tribes originated from the Netherlands and the Rhineland region. There are many lexical and phonological similarities between the onomastics of the Gallia Belgica, which was inhabited by the Belgians (i.e. an unknown Indo-European nation located “zwischen Germanen und Kelten”) and that of the Lusitania. The Proto-Belgians and the Proto-Lusitanians had to represent two branches of a Pre-Celtic population of Indo-European origin. (...)"

    In other words, Iberia and Britain could already be Celtic-speaking during the Bronze Age.

    Hallstatt and La Tene were not Proto-Celtic cultures and were not ancestral to all of Celts.

    ==========

    Celtiberians and Lepontic-speakers according to linguists split from the rest of Celts around the middle of the 2nd millennium BCE, during the disintegration of the Tumuli Cultures, and came to Iberia and Italy during the Middle Bronze Age.

    Celts in Italy:

    "Diffusion of Canegrate culture
    The Canegrate culture was a civilization of Prehistoric Italy who developed from the recent Bronze Age (13th century BC) until the Iron Age, in the areas of what are now western Lombardy, eastern Piedmont, and Ticino. Canegrate represented a completely new cultural dynamic to the area expressed in pottery and bronzework making it a typical example of the western Hallstatt culture.

    The name comes from the locality of Canegrate in Lombardy, south of Legnano and 25 km north of Milan, where Guido Sutermeister discovered important archaeological finds (approximately 50 tombs with ceramics and metallic objects). The site was first excavated in 1926 in the area of Rione Santa Colomba, and systematic excavation occurred between March 1953 and autumn 1956, which led to the discovery of a necropolis of 165 tomb. It is one of the richer archeological sites of Northern Italy.

    The necropolis found in Canegrate is very similar to those realized in the same period in the north of Alps. It represents the first migratory wave of the proto-Celtic population from the northwest part of the Alps that, through the Alpine passes, had already penetrated and settled in the western Po valley between Lake Maggiore and Lake Como (Scamozzina culture). They brought a new funerary practice—cremation—which supplanted inhumation."

  7. #7
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    1 members found this post helpful.
    It is impossible that Celtic would have split in the Bronze Age - Continental and Insular Celtic are too similar. Had they split in the Bronze Age, they'd barely constitute a language group. This is definitely a fringe position.

    Lusitanian is so poorly attested we do not actually know whether it is closely related to Celtic languages. I don't know of any modern scholar who includes it in the Celtic group at least.

    None of that helps us understand what languages were spread by the Urnfield complex which spanned the largest chunk of Central Europe of course. Hallstatt and Jastorf which are often identified with Proto-Celtic and Proto-Germanic respectively definitely retain many elements from the Urnfield tradition, as does Villannova often associated with Etruscan. The Lusatian offshoot is a mystery. It is possible that Trzciniec influenced the Lusatian culture to some degree, but the latter is definitely an Urnfield culture and a very densely populated one at that as evidenced by the huge urn burial sites.

  8. #8
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,582
    Points
    66,418
    Level
    79
    Points: 66,418, Level: 79
    Level completed: 98%, Points required for next Level: 32
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    What about recent ancient autosomal DNA evidence from Tollense?

    Some of the Tollense warriors share a lot of genetic drift with Slavs.

    We have not just skulls, but also autosomal DNA samples of several warriors who died in the battle of Tollense in 1250 BC.

    Of course warriors were from opposing armies, we don't know which warrior fought for which side, but we have their DNA.

    Results indicate that some warriors were related to Balto-Slavs, some to Germanics, and some to "Southerners" (maybe from Pannonia). The battle was fought in Tollense River Valley (Tollensetal), at that time borderland between Nordic Bronze Age and Lusatian cultures:



    Lusatian culture was Pre-Proto-Slavic according to late Polish archaeologist - prof. Kostrzewski - who discovered Biskupin:



    Kossinna was to some extent right when he linked archaeological cultures with ethnicities, as aDNA studies have proven.

    Kostrzewski disagreed with that assumption that one prehistoric material culture = one prehistoric ethnicity.

    But Kossinna was wrong when he attributed the Lusatian culture to Germanic tribes, perhaps Kostrzewski was right here.

    Based on their preliminary autosomal results, it is not impossible that those eastern-shifted Tollense warriors were Proto-Slavs, or at least some kind of Balto-Slavs (Gimbutas could be right as well about prehistoric Balts extending as far west as the Oder). But we also need Y-DNA to confirm this. For example if none of them was R1a-M458, then in my opinion they could not be ancestors of Slavs because R1a-M458 almost certainly had to be present among Proto-Slavs.

    If they find R1a-M458 among Tollense warriors, it will be certain that they were ancestors of Slavs.

    Remember that so far the number of known ancient R1a-M458 samples is exactly ZERO.

  9. #9
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,582
    Points
    66,418
    Level
    79
    Points: 66,418, Level: 79
    Level completed: 98%, Points required for next Level: 32
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    But if the Lusatian culture was Balto-Slavic rather than Celto-Germanic then what happened later?

    How did it happen that Late Iron Age Poland was apparently inhabited by Germanic and Celtic tribes?

    When first available written sources about the area of modern Poland appear - during Classical Antiquity - Greek and Roman authors did not mention Slavic people living in Pomerania (the same area where Tollense is located). What happened after the Bronze Age? Large migrations?

    This below is a map of tribes which either lived or could iive (location of some tribes is uncertain and speculative) on the territory of Poland in Roman times. Bear in my mind that ethnicity of most of these tribes is disupted, but it is considered that most were Germanic.

    It is often assumed that the area achaeologically defined as Przeworsk Culture, was politically united, and part of the Lugian Federation (which was mentioned in Roman sources). The Lugian Federation was probably multi-ethnic but it had Germanic presence as well:



    Compared to historical-cultural regions of Poland (shaped in last 1000 years):



    Przeworsk Culture area and Wielbark Culture area during the 1st century AD:



    Przeworsk Culture area and Wielbark Culture area during the 4th century AD:



    Expansion of cultures associated with Goths (associated with Wielbark, not Przeworsk):



    In earlier part of the Iron Age, Southern Poland was inhabited by Celtic-speakers:

    "Archaeologically confirmed areas of Celtic settlement in Poland" (2014):



    Celts in Southern Poland:

    https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/tag/celtic-poland/



    "Archaeologically confirmed areas of Celtic settlement in Southern Poland" (2016):



    My Y-DNA subclade might come from those Celts, unless it migrated to Poland later.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,085
    Points
    9,648
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,648, Level: 29
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 302
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Recent research on the chronology of Celtic expansion:

    "(...) Chapter 9 gives a short description of the problem of the western expansions of the Indo-European tribes. The chronology of the Celtic invasions into the Hispanic Peninsula is reviewed. The present author accepts the hypothesis that the migration) of the Proto-Lusitanian tribes preceded all the Celtic invasions. He suggests (after Jan G. P. Best’s earlier proposal) that the proto-Lusitanian tribes were representatives of the so called Beaker culture, dating to 2600-1900 BC. This archaeological culture is found intermittently across Western Europe, from Ireland east to Hungary, and from Denmark south to Sicily (see map 20). According to James P. Mallory, the Beaker culture “has often been associated with the Indo- Europeans since there are good reasons to derive it from the area of the earlier Corded Ware culture (The Netherlands / Rhineland region is probably the most widely accepted), which is frequently regarded as early Indo-European. [...] Beakers are also sometimes linked with the spread of the domestic horse (in Ireland and parts of Iberia, for example), solar symbolism, weaponry, and the introduction of early metallurgy - all seen as Indo-European traits”. The findings of the Beaker culture in ancient Lusitania are abundant, so the hypothesis seems to be correct. What is more, the distribution of the late phase of the Beaker culture in the Hispanic Peninsula agrees with the distribution of the Indo-European place-names ending with -briga 'hill, castle (in the hill), town, city’ (see map 22), whereas the Iberian culture called El Argar connects with the distribution of the non-Indo-European place names beginning with Ili-, Ilti-. It is possible to suggest that the proto-Lusitanian tribes originated from the Netherlands and the Rhineland region. There are many lexical and phonological similarities between the onomastics of the Gallia Belgica, which was inhabited by the Belgians (i.e. an unknown Indo-European nation located “zwischen Germanen und Kelten”) and that of the Lusitania. The Proto-Belgians and the Proto-Lusitanians had to represent two branches of a Pre-Celtic population of Indo-European origin. (...)"
    A good bunch of nonsense, the oldest BB was in Portugal not in Netherlands, the spread of the BB in the Iberian peninsula is not related to preroman IE languages areas, etc.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

  11. #11
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,582
    Points
    66,418
    Level
    79
    Points: 66,418, Level: 79
    Level completed: 98%, Points required for next Level: 32
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Ancient DNA is slowly revealing the genetic prehistory of the region. We already have several aDNA samples contemporary with the Lusatian culture, but all of them are from the fringes of that culture (and it will be more difficult to find samples from the core area, because "Lusatians" commonly practiced cremation):

    https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map.../51.138/25.576

    Tollensetal (Welzin) - DNA of warriors who died in battle ca. 1250 BC
    Turlojiske - 3 samples dated to 1010-800, 930-810, 908-485 BC
    Halberstadt - 1 sample (I0099/HAL36C) dated to 1113-1020 BC
    Bylany - two Hallstatt culture samples dated to ca. 850-700 BC

    This map shows cultural (archaeological) situation around year 1200 BC. In Suchowola a new Lusatian culture settlement dated to 800-500 BC has been discovered recently, so it turns out that this culture extended even more to the north-east (the distance between Suchowola and Turlojiske is 90 km). Chotyniec, is a recently discovered Scythian settlement from 700-500 BC:



    According to one theory, the Lusatian culture could be a Pre-Proto-Slavic culture:

    http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/fds/fds_1.htm

    ^^^ Map:


  12. #12
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,582
    Points
    66,418
    Level
    79
    Points: 66,418, Level: 79
    Level completed: 98%, Points required for next Level: 32
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Map of Slavic tribes in Early Medieval Germany, probably the best / most detailed one I've seen so far:

    http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/zvwas/zvwas_8.htm

    Link to map: http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/zvwas/zvwas_210.jpg


  13. #13
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,582
    Points
    66,418
    Level
    79
    Points: 66,418, Level: 79
    Level completed: 98%, Points required for next Level: 32
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Tollensetal (Welzin) - DNA of warriors who died in battle ca. 1250 BC

    ^^^
    Fought at the border of 3 cultures (Lusatian, Nordic Bronze Age, Jastorf):

    https://i.redd.it/fgjlayau2r711.png




  14. #14
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,582
    Points
    66,418
    Level
    79
    Points: 66,418, Level: 79
    Level completed: 98%, Points required for next Level: 32
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Several of Tollense WEZ samples (the southern-shifted ones) plot close to Hungarian Bronze Age, including BR2 (?):



    Some of them plot with modern Poles or between Poles and Balts, some close to Germans (but with more of WHG admixture than modern Germans), some look like Germano-Slavic mixes (no wonder, it was a borderland of 3 cultures), and some - the ones who are genetically southern in the PCA - plot close to Bronze Age Hungarians, including that "famous" BR2 from Cassidy 2016, who had genetic links to Poles:

    https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0X53ULQMZ...st_Eurasia.png



    In 2017 they published "Kossinna's Smile" related to his Siedlungsarchäologische Methode:

    http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.co...heyd-2017.html

    Perhaps there will be also "Kostrzewski's Smile" after the publication of Lusatian DNA results?

    Kostrzewski always claimed that the Lusatian culture, co-discovered by him, was Proto-Slavic:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_Kostrzewski

  15. #15
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,582
    Points
    66,418
    Level
    79
    Points: 66,418, Level: 79
    Level completed: 98%, Points required for next Level: 32
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Tollense was a battle with 4,000 warriors - more than in the siege of Troy. And it took place in area which is considered "backward Barbaricum" by historians. There are hundreds of skeletons (a dozen or so have been DNA-tested so far).

    More importantly it was a battle at the border of 3 cultures.

    So warriors most likely were not of the same ethnic group.

    It was not a civil war.

  16. #16
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,582
    Points
    66,418
    Level
    79
    Points: 66,418, Level: 79
    Level completed: 98%, Points required for next Level: 32
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Regarding the age of Slavic language, a nears consensus among linguists is:

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...=supplementary

    "There is a near consensus among linguists that the Baltic and Slavic languages stem from a common root, Proto-Balto-Slavic, which separated from other Indo-European languages around 4,500–7,000 years before present (YBP) [1–8] and whose origin is mapped to Central Europe [8]. The Balto-Slavic node was recognized already in the pioneer Indo-European[9]. The split between Baltic and Slavic branches has been dated to around 3,500–2,500 YBP [= years 1500-500 BC] [6–8]. (...) Our consensus tree (Fig. G in S2 File) suggests the following topological and temporal reconstruction of the Balto-Slavic languages. Initial disintegration of proto-Balto-Slavic into proto-East Baltic and proto-Slavic took place during the 2nd millennium BC [= years 2000-1001 BC]. Proto Slavic splits into three major clades, East, West, South Slavic around year 100 AD (1900 Years Before Present). Further diversification of each clade into minor clades (i.e. proto-East Slavic: Ukrainian/Belarusian, Russian; proto-West Slavic: Czech/Slovak, proto-Sorbian, Polish/Kashubian; proto-South Slavic: Serbo-Croatian, Bulgarian, Macedonian) took place during the 5th–7th centuries AD (about 1500–1300 YBP), followed by final shaping of individual languages (1000–500 YBP). (...)"

    ^^^ So Slavic is about as old as - or even older than - the Lusatian culture.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    ihype02's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    300
    Points
    2,165
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,165, Level: 13
    Level completed: 5%, Points required for next Level: 285
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Ancient DNA is slowly revealing the genetic prehistory of the region. We already have several aDNA samples contemporary with the Lusatian culture, but all of them are from the fringes of that culture (and it will be more difficult to find samples from the core area, because "Lusatians" commonly practiced cremation):

    https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map.../51.138/25.576

    Tollensetal (Welzin) - DNA of warriors who died in battle ca. 1250 BC
    Turlojiske - 3 samples dated to 1010-800, 930-810, 908-485 BC
    Halberstadt - 1 sample (I0099/HAL36C) dated to 1113-1020 BC
    Bylany - two Hallstatt culture samples dated to ca. 850-700 BC

    This map shows cultural (archaeological) situation around year 1200 BC. In Suchowola a new Lusatian culture settlement dated to 800-500 BC has been discovered recently, so it turns out that this culture extended even more to the north-east (the distance between Suchowola and Turlojiske is 90 km). Chotyniec, is a recently discovered Scythian settlement from 700-500 BC:



    According to one theory, the Lusatian culture could be a Pre-Proto-Slavic culture:

    http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/fds/fds_1.htm

    ^^^ Map:

    For the last map, Thracians were more south than that.

  18. #18
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,582
    Points
    66,418
    Level
    79
    Points: 66,418, Level: 79
    Level completed: 98%, Points required for next Level: 32
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    In any case, the domination of R1a-Z280 in the area between Turlojiske and Halberstadt indicates that the Lusatian culture was closely related to Balto-Slavs and not to "western" populations originating predominantly from Bell Beaker descendants. It follows that cultural affiliation of "Lusatians" with other Urnfield cultures, resulted raher from a purely cultural spread of certain customs towards the east, not from linguistic or biological kinship. "Lusatians" were descended from Trzciniec populations with R1a-Z280 and - perhaps - also R1a-M458. Of course I do not exclude the possibility of some Celtic and "Hungarian" (BR2-like) genetic influences in "Lusatians", including the presence of some R1b-P312.

  19. #19
    Junior Member Achievements:
    500 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    13-09-18
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2
    Points
    863
    Level
    7
    Points: 863, Level: 7
    Level completed: 57%, Points required for next Level: 87
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    BeautyAny
    MtDNA haplogroup
    BeautyAny

    Ethnic group
    84495813723
    Country: USA - Alabama



    BeautyAny

    Thank you for the wonderful info

  20. #20
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Recommendation Second ClassVeteranThree Friends5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    22-02-11
    Posts
    49
    Points
    5,897
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,897, Level: 22
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 153
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV

    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    I'm happy to hear that ""Lusatians" were descended from Trzciniec populations".
    Also I think that there is really no difference between Lusatian culture and Urnfields culture: only academic ideas.
    Anyway Lusatian culture spread also to southern Austria.
    Ethnicity of Lusatia culture was probably proto-Venetic.
    Look at Z92 haplogroup map.
    "http://venetianambassadors.org/uploads/images/project-images/venetic-origins-cover.png" (I can't upload image, do it for me please if you can).

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Recommendation Second ClassVeteranThree Friends5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    22-02-11
    Posts
    49
    Points
    5,897
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,897, Level: 22
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 153
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV

    Country: Italy



    В статье поставлен вопрос можно ли на основании имеющихся данных по мутациям в Y-хромосоме ДНК выявить современных потомков исторических венетов и венедов, описанных в античной литературе. Для ответа на вопрос были идентифицированы северо-евразийские, балтийские и карпатские ветви гаплогруппы R1a на основании имеющихся результатов геномного анализа (по снипам Y-хромосомы) и определения базовых (предковых) гаплотипов, проведено их географическое отнесение, и показано, что во всех балтийских, северных, карпатских ветвях гаплогруппы R1a преобладают поляки и русские, в меньшей степени немцы, еще в меньшей степени украинцы и белорусы. Полученные данные показывают, что древние венеты могли иметь гаплогруппу R1a, источниками ее могли быть балканская Адриатика, Малая Азия, Троя, гаплогруппа R1a могла попасть туда в ходе миграций с северной части восточной Европы с венедами или их предками, и наиболее вероятные потомки венетов и венедов имеют северо-европейское, балтийское или карпатское происхождение.


    КиберЛенинка: https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/ve...dnk-genealogii

  22. #22
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second Class10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Dibran's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-09-16
    Posts
    824
    Points
    13,863
    Level
    35
    Points: 13,863, Level: 35
    Level completed: 74%, Points required for next Level: 187
    Overall activity: 15.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a-L1029*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H11a2*-146+

    Ethnic group
    Albanian/Gheg/Dibran/Okshtun
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by piero View Post
    В статье поставлен вопрос можно ли на основании имеющихся данных по мутациям в Y-хромосоме ДНК выявить современных потомков исторических венетов и венедов, описанных в античной литературе. Для ответа на вопрос были идентифицированы северо-евразийские, балтийские и карпатские ветви гаплогруппы R1a на основании имеющихся результатов геномного анализа (по снипам Y-хромосомы) и определения базовых (предковых) гаплотипов, проведено их географическое отнесение, и показано, что во всех балтийских, северных, карпатских ветвях гаплогруппы R1a преобладают поляки и русские, в меньшей степени немцы, еще в меньшей степени украинцы и белорусы. Полученные данные показывают, что древние венеты могли иметь гаплогруппу R1a, источниками ее могли быть балканская Адриатика, Малая Азия, Троя, гаплогруппа R1a могла попасть туда в ходе миграций с северной части восточной Европы с венедами или их предками, и наиболее вероятные потомки венетов и венедов имеют северо-европейское, балтийское или карпатское происхождение.


    КиберЛенинка: https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/ve...dnk-genealogii
    I think only Pan-Slavic Pseudo Historians try to ascribe Venets, Veneds, and Veneths of all Europe to North-East origin. In the face of actual evidence one can reassess the situation. However, I do not see how historical Venetians of antiquity or the early middle ages are related to Proto-Slavs or even Balto-Slavs. Anything is possible of course. It seems a stretch though, especially the mention of Troy lol. Granted I used google translate so I am uncertain if the translation was butchered or not.

    The discovery of M458 would show that the lineage could have spread much earlier than the Slavic tribes of the migration era(which could represent a later migration of the same stock). Slav/Sklaveni/Proto-Slav/Balto-Slav are merely new descriptions for peoples that may have gone by other names. Personally(given only Goth elite remains showed Germanic nature) I think that Balto-Slavs/Proto-Slavs were more widespread in antiquity than history would give credit.

    As far as historical populations, I am of the mind that Proto-Slavs possibly draw origin/or at least relation from the Getae, whom were considered a tribe of Dacians, but not much evidence to suggest they were Dacian. Even Theophylact Simokatta believed the Sklavenoi were actually called Getae(a Greek designation) in antiquity. Though theres no way of him verifying this but it was mentioned nonetheless. Considering some Slavic archaeological finds showed similarities to Celtic, it stands to reason that Lusatians were a Balto Slavic/Proto-Slavic peoples considering influence of the Urnfield culture. Perhaps the expanding Germanic dominance in antiquity pushed Balto-Slavic/Proto-Slavs further East and South-East before the migration era. This could explain the supposed "eastern shift" that was found in a Suebi sample. Or as some theorize the Goths may have been Proto-Slavs that had a Germanic Elite.

    I suppose time will tell. I very much hope they begin testing those rich samples from the battle of Tolense.

  23. #23
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,469
    Points
    42,801
    Level
    63
    Points: 42,801, Level: 63
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 149
    Overall activity: 7.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Question of the ethnic quality of Lusacian Culture :
    I lack recent works about it but it seems the old scientists had ad hoc theories, placing Lusacians of the shifting between Bronze and Iron ages among proto-Germans, proto-Slavs, Thracians, Carps (Carpo-Daces), Illyrians broad choice !
    It s hard to descriminate ethnies among cultures : ethnies change culture, cultures changes ethny
    To me it seems the Lusacian culture rather than the prototype of the Urnfields aspects is one aspect of the Urnfields, Urnfields born around Hungary/Austria, mixing diverse streams of culture, but with incineration which seems a recurrent trait of Late Neolithic cultures under southeastern influences. But I dont believe in important cultures changes without some demic imput ; and more than one scholar mentions an encrease in demography : the problem is how to weight this demic input. Center Europe has been a crossroad of so numerous tribes in past ! (and to date too). But its not to say there has been always a complete melting of these tribes at the basic social level (even swords, tradable, showed typical geographical distribution for some time, and even when they were found almost all of them in Hungary, a central point).
    Linguistically, I have pain to forget completely some phenomenons, even if some proximities can be discarded by peer examenation : the supposed devoicing and hard spiration of consonants in Rhaetian, Etruscan, Germanic, modern Hungarian compared to Finno-Ugric roots (in this late case I dont know if these phenomenos did not occur before reaching Europe, I avow). What is maybe of some weight is some proximity in Venetic of basic words (pronouns) with Germanic and some phonologic similarities with Rhaetian. So Im tempted to think that some linguistic phenomenons took their origin in Central Europe, for the most around Hungary, a crossroad, around the very Late Bronze/Early Iron and Hallstatt and I would discard coincidences. Spite the new mutations in High Germanic dialects compared to Low Germanic and ancient Germanic are similar but not identical, I still wonder if they would not be linked to an ancient pop of Tyrol surroundings, linked to something Etruscan-like.
    So, maybe a population or Hungary or surroundings could be at the origin of the spread of a religion implying cremation, but it seems it had the support of some trade or partial colonisation, based on aspects considered then as a (material) progress ; the demography in more than a place confirms it. It is not sure this newcoming pop imposed everywhere its language, IE or not. The change has been either brutal and complete or progressive or incomplete (sometime crossed : old artefacts new burying, new artefacts, old burying ; look at Baviera : first cremations only for wives : exchanges ?), according to regions ; this last aspect discards the solution of an uniquely religious phenomenon, IMO. In Lusace territory, I think a new ethny took foot by South in S-W but it could not be a Slavic one, nor I think it was Celtic spite I believe Celts or some kind of Italics could have been the tumuli first intruders fromS-W Czechia, before Urnfields. After first change in Lusacian world (urnfields), I think the mode extended unevenly to other regions of Poland or Germany to other ethnies (and in other Europe regions the same mode). In Poland I think that in East we could have found some (proto-)satem langage from previous CWC, on the way to maybe Baltic-Slavic, not Slavic yet, whatever the tribes names. In West, I guess some proto-Germanics, and pan-Italics (Germanics show more grammatical ties with Balto-Slavic, and more deep ties too with Italics than with Celts, according to someones). Only bets before writings, if ever someones came to light.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •