Roots of Europe Seminar

Angela

Angela

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There were talks by David Anthony and Mallory among others, and a particular emphasis on Scandinavia.

Some of the titles access written material when clicked on, and some don't, unfortunately. If someone can find a way to access more of them, that would be great. I'd be particularly interested to read Mallory's latest thoughts.

You can read the Kristiansen piece on the Indo-Europeanization of Europe. Frankly, I think it's appalling. There's just a lot in it that's absolutely wrong. It's as if he hasn't read the latest work.

https://rootsofeurope.ku.dk/roe_sommerskole/

https://rootsofeurope.ku.dk/roe_sommerskole/Kristiansen_summer_school_2018.pdf
 
Angela said:
There were talks by David Anthony and Mallory among others, and a particular emphasis on Scandinavia.

Some of the titles access written material when clicked on, and some don't, unfortunately. If someone can find a way to access more of them, that would be great. I'd be particularly interested to read Mallory's latest thoughts.

You can read the Kristiansen piece on the Indo-Europeanization of Europe. Frankly, I think it's appalling. There's just a lot in it that's absolutely wrong. It's as if he hasn't read the latest work.

https://rootsofeurope.ku.dk/roe_sommerskole/

https://rootsofeurope.ku.dk/roe_sommerskole/Kristiansen_summer_school_2018.pdf
Click to expand...

Hi. Which parts do you think he his off?
 
bicicleur said:
overemphasis on the influence of Maykop on Yamna

Corded Ware as proto-Germanic

I didn't look any further
Click to expand...

Very weird also that he seems to imply in the last sheet that Celtic spread from the UK & Northern Spain to southern Germany via trade connections, only to expand again from La Tène and Hallstatt and replace all previous Celtic languages in the Isles and Iberia.

Well I can't disprove any of it, but I wonder what made him come to that conclusion. Wouldn't it be more honest to admit we just don't know what happened since we have zero evidence for a Celtic language prior to the Hallstatt expansions?
 
markod said:
Very weird also that he seems to imply in the last sheet that Celtic spread from the UK & Northern Spain to southern Germany via trade connections, only to expand again from La Tène and Hallstatt and replace all previous Celtic languages in the Isles and Iberia.

Well I can't disprove any of it, but I wonder what made him come to that conclusion. Wouldn't it be more honest to admit we just don't know what happened since we have zero evidence for a Celtic language prior to the Hallstatt expansions?
Click to expand...

there are some things we actually do know since the Bell Beaker paper
and it is not like the Professor seems to imply

Bell Beakers travelled from Iberia to Central Europe with exchange of genes.
Then it went from Central Europe, with gene transfer, it brought R1b-L21 to the British Isles 4.5 ka, and they looked more or less like modern Brits.
They were probably the insular Celts as the majority of the Irish are still R1b-L21.

IMO the Hallstatt were the proto-continental Celts from whom also the Gauls originated.
They replaced many of the insular Celts.
 
Why should we doubt what the genetics tell us? If we follow the stream of clades and subclades of R1b all the way down to the present time, it is obvious that the expansion went westwards. L51 in Unetice, P310 in Bohemia or thereabouts, then the final major split between U106 (which went north, north-west), L21 (Urnfields or Tumulus?) as early Q-celtic migrants to Galicia, and the British Isles, DF27 (early Halstatt?) as a second Q-celtic celtiberian layer, and finally U152 to Italy (late Halstatt?) and to Gaul (La Tène?). If anyone has evidence of a Celtic back migration from Britain to Germany, I'll be glad to see it.

Linguistically, well, most R1a populations today speak Satem languages. I'll grant that Corded Ware was a an early culture, dating to times when the Centum/Satem split is not certain to have occurred yet, but still, Corded Ware was largely R1a, so if Germanic were descended from Corded Ware, it would most likely be Satem. My view is that Germanic was probably the language of R1b tribes, who assimilated large fractions of local Corded Ware R1a, and of I1 they had formerly pushed northwards. As all those people were rubbing elbows, the language was affected and Germanic developed its own phonological specificities.

As for Celts, similar story. Of all IE migrants (to the west), the Celts were those that travelled furthest. Which means the language got more "admixed" and altered on the way, ending up as clearly distinct in the IE family.

Bell Beaker, as I see it, was a culture that developed in Iberia and spread (perhaps merely through contacts and exchanges?) towards the north-east. That culture was penetrated early by IE adventurers or traders or invaders who settled in various areas over time, with varying degrees of linguistic/cultural/genetic influence : Basques, Lusitanians, Ligures, and then ultimately, and overwhelmingly, Celts proper.

I'm not conceited enough to claim I know better than Pr Kristiansen, but like Angela above, I find his conclusions extremely surprising.
 
I'm really not sure linking the Bell Beakers with Celtic languages is that evident. There is multiple languages like Lusitanian, Venetian, Ligurian maybe Pict language and even the Nordwestblok hypothesis with Belgian as a transitional language of Celtic and Germanic languages. I no doubt of the Yamnaya-Like origin of central europe Bell Beakers and that they brought some IE languages but maybe not the Celtic ones. Some Pre-Celtic languages could also easily fit into it.
 
BB phenomenon is still unclear and maps showing huge territories with a uniform layer of "BB" culture could mistake us.
The local degrees of "penetration" of the BB phenomenon are unlevel, I think. I 'm not very knowledged but I see the BB label expansion as a network of related groups where some elite was more or less demically strong or weak;It's not sure this elite was the launcher of the pottery aspect. In Northwest-Central Europe the male lineages are very homogenous (surely common basis R1b-P312), whatever it is the lineage of first "true" BB's or not. In some regions the final auDNA basis is homogenous enough but in others we see a wider range of auDNA covering almost all Europe except the extremes.

I am even not sure every region of the total territory concerned by this phenomenon was speaking the very same language.
for guesses, I agree with Halftap: some pre-Celtic pre-Italic IE language: I 'll add maybe a non-I-E one, or more than one language, with one playing the role of lingua franca?
 
I'd have to go back to find the exact quote, but to the best of my recollection he said that the CHG/Iran Neo like ancestry went onto the steppe by way of Maykop people. That's absolutely incorrect if the latest papers are accurate. The influence genetically that we see from that period is far earlier than Maykop, and it's not even clear that it penetrated much beyond some areas very close to the Caucasus.

It almost seems as if he didn't read it. If he did and he disagrees with it he should have explained his reasoning.
 
Angela said:
I'd have to go back to find the exact quote, but to the best of my recollection he said that the CHG/Iran Neo like ancestry went onto the steppe by way of Maykop people. That's absolutely incorrect if the latest papers are accurate.

It almost seems as if he didn't read it. If he did and he disagrees with it he should have explained his reasoning.
Click to expand...

i think kristiansen wrote that in his slides for the presentation.

"the maikop culture prospered from this mesopotamian venture for metal and soon expanded into the steppe where is became the kurgan or yamna culture"

"Genetically the Majkop Culture differs from the steppe, but when it moves into the steppe it admixes genetically and culturally and inspire the formation of the Yamnay Culture, which in turn lead to the Corded Ware Culture. We encounter already the dominant R1 male lineage in the steppe, that should continue into Europé. A general decline in male lines occur at the same time. "

"North of the Carpathians R1a male lineages expanded and turned into the Corded Ware Culture,which would later develop into the Germanic languages"

"From the yamna migration into hungary the R1b male lineages spread westwards and adopted the bell beaker package, but within genetic admixture. Borugh italo-celtic."


"Bell Beaker groups migrated along the Atlan4c seaboard, but also into Central northwesternEurope, where they met Corded Ware groups that stopped their expansion and took over the Bell Beaker package before migra4ng to ENgland."

i his opinion the origin of celtic languages was not in central but in western europe and celtic was spread by bell beakers.
 
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