Politics Germany's Far Right Never Went Away

It's not rational to trash an entire people like this, and I don't care if he is German himself. No people as a whole is "without empathy". There is probably a genetic component to most traits, but other factors are involved as well. He's talking about some sort of genetic determinism if you really boil it down.

Plus, the Germans are not one genetic monolithic bloc anyway. In fact, there's more variety than there is in a lot of other groups, as we've pointed out in other threads: East Germans are quite a bit different from southern and western Germans who are again different from northern Germans.

I'm always leery of people who claim to know what "the majority" feel. That's no kind of real evidentiary proof. As for people turning to a strong leader when things go bad, I think that's a danger in a lot of countries. It's not particular to Germans.

To me, he seems to be operating from emotion, not logic.

I have repeatedly stopped people from trashing other nationalities. Germans are not going to be the exception.
 
The West is paralyzed by their focus on the guilt of WW2. However, the troublesome past of the East is communism, not fascism, which is far away in their eyes, and was a Communist hobby.

That is why people in the East rise against migration far easier.
 
epoch said:
The West is paralyzed by their focus on the guilt of WW2. However, the troublesome past of the East is communism, not fascism, which is far away in their eyes, and was a Communist hobby.

That is why people in the East rise against migration far easier.
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I doubt East German right wingers have too many gripes with the DDR as such. Sure, the nominal internationalism is contrary to everything they believe, but this was hardly a concern in day to day life. On the oher hand there were deliberate efforts to bolster a kind of Prussianism, since East Germany would have been the bulwark against NATO in case of a war. Holocaust remembrance and research also were at best discouraged and sometimes dismissed as capitalist propaganda. Prof. Helmut Eschwege for example was one of the most prominent Holocaust researchers in Germany and he was demoted to a janitor at the university of Dresden because the SED didn't like his work :rolleyes:
 
I knew it: either incompetence on the part of the Security Chief, or he was in cahoots with them:

He passed along a secret report to the far right Alternative for Germany.

Why does he still have a job?
https://twitter.com/dw_politics/status/1040174587315675136

Returns east vs west:
""In east Germany, the AfD has been twice as strong as in west Germany. This shows that the voting behavior is much more volatile there and that many citizens in the east feel insecure," says Eckhard Jesse, a political scientist and one of the leading experts on extremism research in Germany. "After more than 25 years of reunification, they [still] feel like second-class citizens."The election highlighted a deep divide between Germany's east and west, following the lines of where the Iron Curtain once stood."

""Although Merkel herself is from the east, the frustration there is considerable," Jesse says. "People feel like they are not appreciated, particularly when compared to what they perceive as so much being done for the refugees. This strikes many as unfair when they have worked so hard for the last 27 years in East Germany. It is a feeling of being left behind."


"The east, he says, has seen fewer immigrants than the west. Germans in the east "have not been used to living in a multicultural society," he says. "That is why it has been relatively easy in East Germany for the AfD to define foreigners as responsible" for economic hardship and other difficulties. "If you feel like a loser," he says, "you look for someone to blame.""

https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2017/09/26/553698504/german-election-results-highlight-old-divides-between-east-and-west

Some see deeper historical roots:
"[FONT=&quot]Stunning clarity about the West-East divide in Germany: AfD #1 in East, #4 in West. The Elbe is Germany‘s Mason-Dixon Line, but far older."[/FONT]
 
Angela said:
I knew it: either incompetence on the part of the Security Chief, or he was in cahoots with them:

He passed along a secret report to the far right Alternative for Germany.

Why does he still have a job?
Click to expand...

because there is no proof ?

Hans-Georg #Maassen, president of Germany's domestic secret service, allegedly passed on sensitive data from a report to the far-right Alternative for Germany (AfD). The spy chief has already faced calls to resign.
 
epoch said:
The West is paralyzed by their focus on the guilt of WW2. However, the troublesome past of the East is communism, not fascism, which is far away in their eyes, and was a Communist hobby.

That is why people in the East rise against migration far easier.
Click to expand...
It sounds reasonable. But as you may have noticed, this entire thread is based on speculations. You don't know what the citizens of East Germany may have harbored or passed on. And Communism and Naziism really have not that much of a differentiation other than what the top 1 percent has decided.
 
Angela said:
I knew it: either incompetence on the part of the Security Chief, or he was in cahoots with them:

He passed along a secret report to the far right Alternative for Germany.

Why does he still have a job?
https://twitter.com/dw_politics/status/1040174587315675136

Returns east vs west:
""In east Germany, the AfD has been twice as strong as in west Germany. This shows that the voting behavior is much more volatile there and that many citizens in the east feel insecure," says Eckhard Jesse, a political scientist and one of the leading experts on extremism research in Germany. "After more than 25 years of reunification, they [still] feel like second-class citizens."The election highlighted a deep divide between Germany's east and west, following the lines of where the Iron Curtain once stood."

""Although Merkel herself is from the east, the frustration there is considerable," Jesse says. "People feel like they are not appreciated, particularly when compared to what they perceive as so much being done for the refugees. This strikes many as unfair when they have worked so hard for the last 27 years in East Germany. It is a feeling of being left behind."


"The east, he says, has seen fewer immigrants than the west. Germans in the east "have not been used to living in a multicultural society," he says. "That is why it has been relatively easy in East Germany for the AfD to define foreigners as responsible" for economic hardship and other difficulties. "If you feel like a loser," he says, "you look for someone to blame.""

https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2017/09/26/553698504/german-election-results-highlight-old-divides-between-east-and-west

Some see deeper historical roots:
"[FONT="]Stunning clarity about the West-East divide in Germany: AfD #1 in East, #4 in West. The Elbe is Germany‘s Mason-Dixon Line, but far older."[/FONT]
Click to expand...

FYI, Merkel is looking to remove Hans-Georgg Maassen from office, because 'he is unfit for the job',
but nowhere Merkel denies the allegations made by him that some of the video's may not be genuine

he would have ties with the opposition, with AfD
is she looking to replace him with someone who has more ties with her own party?

I agree Hans-Georg Maassen spoke before his time, he should have been more discrete,
but it seems to me the problem is that what he says doesn't fit with what Merkel herself told in the media

https://www.knack.be/nieuws/wereld/..._knack&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1537177605
 
bicicleur said:
in the mean time the controversy about the genuinity of the footing with neo-nazis chasing foreigners is going on
the oposition is already demanding Hans-Georg Maassen to resign
why did he tell such things?
was he so stupid to undermine his own position or does he have some genuine indications to doubt the authenticity?

http://www.knack.be/nieuws/wereld/h..._knack&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1536340091
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that was probably because the video was coming from an antifa account called "zeckenbiss". it is also not clear what really happened before the video and what happened afterwards. so there is a reason to doubt this video. however that video isn't the main problem anymore as it seems. according to german media there is a lot more evidence for the chasing of foreigners and maassen should not have concentrated on this one video. though everyone else also concentrated on it. its a bit strange that we dont hear from the minister of saxony who said that there was no human chasing in chemnitz.
 
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exceededminimumso.. said:
http://time.com/4955503/germany-elections-2017-far-right-russia-angela-merkel/
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that russian speaking germans vote for the afd is wrong. according to a study they gave 15% of their votes for the afd. that is almost the same as the whole population gave to the afd(12.6%). it was probably just false information. probably also intentionally with a political goal.

the ARD, the brodcasting network of the german state, commented the study and said that the % could be up to 5% higher because of "underreporting" in surveys about the afd. but the ARD is also extremely anti-afd with many anti afd experts and reporters. and before this study was released they made a report about how conservative, indoctrinated by russian propaganda, russian germans are and that many supposedly vote for afd.
the first sentences are(my translation) "for decades russian germans were considered as a good example for immigrants. now this has come to an end."

or "the longing for german culture and christian tradition contracdicts the multicultural reality."
 
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however we can also turn this around. 35% of german turks voted for spd(20.5% in the whole population), 16% voted for "die linke", "the left",(8.6% in the whole population), 13% voted for "die grüne" "the green one", (8% in the whole population). the second generation voted even more for the left parties.

kurds, who are a subgroup of german turks, voted with 37% for "the left".
 
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Ailchu said:
that russian speaking germans vote for the afd is wrong. according to a study they gave 15% of their votes for the afd. that is almost the same as the whole population gave to the afd(12.6%). it was probably just false information. probably also intentionally with a political goal.

the ARD, the brodcasting network of the german state, commented the study and said that the % could be up to 5% higher because of "underreporting" in surveys about the afd. but the ARD is also extremely anti-afd with many anti afd experts and reporters. and before this study was released they made a report about how conservative, indoctrinated by russian propaganda, russian germans are and that many supposedly vote for afd.
the first sentences are(my translation) "for decades russian germans were considered a good example for immigrants. now this has come to an end."
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and are 5 % of German voters of Russian origin? is that correct?
 
bicicleur said:
and are 5 % of German voters of Russian origin? is that correct?
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https://www.uni-due.de/migrantenwahlstudie/
according to the people who made the survey there are 2.4 million german citizens who came from the sovjet union or from former sovjet regions while there are 75 million german citizens in total. 1.5 of those germans with russian origin are able to vote while there are 61 million people who are able to vote in total. so no i don't think that they make up 5% of the voters. if we include all people with a sovjet background, german citizens or not, then we might be at 5% of the total population.
 
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In 2016-2017 Germany accepted 1.9 million foreigners. Poland during the same time took 1.2 million (in vast majority Ukrainians). Germany has 82 million people in total, Poland 38 million. So, proportionally to total population, Poland has more of recent immigrants.

Source: http://wiadomosci.dziennik.pl/histo...polska-demografia-historia-rzad-osadnicy.html

In Germany recent immigration causes political upheaval and protests. In Poland, no such problems. Why is that?
 
Ailchu said:
https://www.uni-due.de/migrantenwahlstudie/
according to the people who made the survey there are 2.4 million german citizens who came from the sovjet union or from former sovjet regions while there are 75 million german citizens in total.
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Aren't they mostly ethnic Germans from Russia, though?

On the other hand, most of them are not fully German.

For example on another forum there is a user from Russia who is 6/8 ethnic Russian and only 1/8 German (his grandfather is 1/2 German from Latvia and Estonia in what was then the Russian Empire) and he is eligible to get the status of "Sp?taussiedler" of ethnic German origin in Germany. :unsure:

The same user from Russia is also 1/8 Polish (two grandparents 1/4 Polish each). However, according to Polish law you have to be at least 1/4 Polish (either one Polish grandparent or two Polish great-grandparents) in order to be legally recognized as a "person of Polish origin":

https://www.lexlege.pl/ustawa-o-repatriacji/art-5/

So he is not eligible to get Karta Polaka (Pole's Card): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karta_Polaka

On the other hand, it is not so much about "blood" but rather about identity (you have to prove that one of your grandparents or two of your great-grandparents are/were people who identify as part of the "Polish Nation"). But I think in German law it is also about identity of ancestors.
 
Ailchu said:
https://www.uni-due.de/migrantenwahlstudie/
according to the people who made the survey there are 2.4 million german citizens who came from the sovjet union or from former sovjet regions while there are 75 million german citizens in total. 1.5 of those germans with russian origin are able to vote while there are 61 million people who are able to vote in total. so no i don't think that they make up 5% of the voters. if we include all people with a sovjet background, german citizens or not, then we might be at 5% of the total population.
Click to expand...

and Sovjet Union is not the same as Russian

in short, this is fake news
 
Niklas Frank has the same right to speak as the writers of the Guardian article that you have quoted.

Angela said:
It's not rational to trash an entire people like this, and I don't care if he is German himself. No people as a whole is "without empathy". There is probably a genetic component to most traits, but other factors are involved as well. He's talking about some sort of genetic determinism if you really boil it down.

Plus, the Germans are not one genetic monolithic bloc anyway. In fact, there's more variety than there is in a lot of other groups, as we've pointed out in other threads: East Germans are quite a bit different from southern and western Germans who are again different from northern Germans.

I'm always leery of people who claim to know what "the majority" feel. That's no kind of real evidentiary proof. As for people turning to a strong leader when things go bad, I think that's a danger in a lot of countries. It's not particular to Germans.

To me, he seems to be operating from emotion, not logic.

I have repeatedly stopped people from trashing other nationalities. Germans are not going to be the exception.
Click to expand...
 
My guess: It has to do with properly vetting people.
Tomenable said:
In 2016-2017 Germany accepted 1.9 million foreigners. Poland during the same time took 1.2 million (in vast majority Ukrainians). Germany has 82 million people in total, Poland 38 million. So, proportionally to total population, Poland has more of recent immigrants.

Source: http://wiadomosci.dziennik.pl/histo...polska-demografia-historia-rzad-osadnicy.html

In Germany recent immigration causes political upheaval and protests. In Poland, no such problems. Why is that?
Click to expand...
 
firetown said:
Niklas Frank has the same right to speak as the writers of the Guardian article that you have quoted.
Click to expand...

Stop with the illogical straw man arguments. Who said he doesn't have the right to speak????
 
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