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Thread: Germany's Far Right Never Went Away

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Germany's Far Right Never Went Away



    This is obviously an English view of German history and politics. Is it accurate? I hope not.

    See:
    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...P=share_btn_tw

    I think it almost seems to say, in parts, that the problem with East Germans is that they're more "eastern", or "Slavic" than other Germans, which is a dangerous trajectory in its own right.*

    I can see where the violent demonstrations are very discomfiting, however. They're not the only ones who had a flashback to Brown Shirt violence on the streets of the Germany of the Weimar Republic.

    Ed. * I don't believe in trashing a whole part of Europe in this way, and, after all, the heart of Nazism in Germany was in Bavaria.


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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    you might as well say the KKK is on the rise in the USA

    that is how much truth there is in this statement

    the truth is that the brains of many Germans are still obscured because of feeling guilty about WWII
    it made Angela Merkel say 'wir schaffen dass' which was an utter stupidity
    and know some populist party like AfD is cashing in on this

    but these populist parties are all over Europe
    because Europe has a hangover from the uncontrolled immigration in 2015-2016 and even the decades before that

    you might say Trump did the same, he's president because of discontent of many people

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    if a journalist writes about the come-back of Nazi Germany, he has always an audiance guaranteed
    there are people around who just want to believe that kind of stories

    yes, there were right-wing people in Chemnitz who were selectively aroused, that much is true
    and there was violence, but it came from both right-wing and left-wing protestors
    and those left-wing are as biassed as the right-wing

    just like in the US, where we are told police only shoot only black people

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    ^^I hope you're right in your general feeling about this.

    For accuracy, however, the KKK is not on the rise in the U.S in any meaningful way. A few mentally ill young people spout this kind of stuff, but there's been no violent demonstration where thousands of people have rioted over immigration, or gone hunting for foreigners to attack them, much as a lot of Americans don't like it. Plus, are we supposed to totally ignore Germany's history? They were on that train from the late 1800s until 1946.


    Also, I was referring to the first demonstration, before the Anti-Fa people showed up, fwiw.



    Frankly, the only Americans I've seen behave in this way during demonstrations are precisely the black and other minority "Hands Up" people, which is indeed based on total fantasy and Anti-Fa type radical "progressives". I've certainly never seen conservative people in the U.S., anti-immigration people, behave in this way.

    Nor does anyone in America spouting the kind of rhetoric used by these groups in Germany and other northern European countries get 35% of the vote anywhere. I'm no fan of Donald Trump, but to compare him to the leaders of groups like this is totally off the mark.

    I just saw a youtube video of a demonstration in Stockholm where the leader was explaining the greatness of Adolph Hitler, and, as I said, they're getting a big percentage of the vote.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2uSNhHDVag

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^I hope you're right in your general feeling about this.

    For accuracy, however, the KKK is not on the rise in the U.S in any meaningful way. A few mentally ill young people spout this kind of stuff, but there's been no violent demonstration where thousands of people have rioted over immigration, or gone hunting for foreigners to attack them, much as a lot of Americans don't like it. Plus, are we supposed to totally ignore Germany's history? They were on that train from the late 1800s until 1946.


    Also, I was referring to the first demonstration, before the Anti-Fa people showed up, fwiw.



    Frankly, the only Americans I've seen behave in this way during demonstrations are precisely the black and other minority "Hands Up" people, which is indeed based on total fantasy and Anti-Fa type radical "progressives". I've certainly never seen conservative people in the U.S., anti-immigration people, behave in this way.

    Nor does anyone in America spouting the kind of rhetoric used by these groups in Germany and other northern European countries get 35% of the vote anywhere. I'm no fan of Donald Trump, but to compare him to the leaders of groups like this is totally off the mark.

    I just saw a youtube video of a demonstration in Stockholm where the leader was explaining the greatness of Adolph Hitler, and, as I said, they're getting a big percentage of the vote.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2uSNhHDVag
    "Explaining the greatness of Adolph Hitler,..." Well, that must have been entertaining. I would like to see one of these loudmouths explain Hitler's "greatness" before an audience of older Poles or Ukrainians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^I hope you're right in your general feeling about this.
    For accuracy, however, the KKK is not on the rise in the U.S in any meaningful way. A few mentally ill young people spout this kind of stuff, but there's been no violent demonstration where thousands of people have rioted over immigration, or gone hunting for foreigners to attack them, much as a lot of Americans don't like it. Plus, are we supposed to totally ignore Germany's history? They were on that train from the late 1800s until 1946.
    Also, I was referring to the first demonstration, before the Anti-Fa people showed up, fwiw.

    Frankly, the only Americans I've seen behave in this way during demonstrations are precisely the black and other minority "Hands Up" people, which is indeed based on total fantasy and Anti-Fa type radical "progressives". I've certainly never seen conservative people in the U.S., anti-immigration people, behave in this way.
    Nor does anyone in America spouting the kind of rhetoric used by these groups in Germany and other northern European countries get 35% of the vote anywhere. I'm no fan of Donald Trump, but to compare him to the leaders of groups like this is totally off the mark.
    I just saw a youtube video of a demonstration in Stockholm where the leader was explaining the greatness of Adolph Hitler, and, as I said, they're getting a big percentage of the vote.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2uSNhHDVag
    I know, the KKK is a marginal phenomenon in the US, and so are those who celebrate Adolph Hitler in Germany.

    And yes there is xenphobia in Germany, as there is elsewhere.
    But violence commited by criminal immigrants in Germany is far greater than violence commited by any far right movement in Germany.
    And then we can of course talk about German criminality in general.
    But criminality of immigrants is higher than the average German criminality, and many immigrants were already criminals before entering Europe (drug criminals and human trafficking).
    And so we can go on and on and on discussing...

    It is a marginal phenomenon which atracts many journalists.

    By the way, what do you know about the author of this article?
    And where did you get the notion that worshippers of Adolph Hitler atract many votes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I know, the KKK is a marginal phenomenon in the US, and so are those who celebrate Adolph Hitler in Germany.
    And yes there is xenphobia in Germany, as there is elsewhere.
    But violence commited by criminal immigrants in Germany is far greater than violence commited by any far right movement in Germany.
    And then we can of course talk about German criminality in general.
    But criminality of immigrants is higher than the average German criminality, and many immigrants were already criminals before entering Europe (drug criminals and human trafficking).
    And so we can go on and on and on discussing...
    It is a marginal phenomenon which atracts many journalists.
    By the way, what do you know about the author of this article?
    And where did you get the notion that worshippers of Adolph Hitler atract many votes?
    I didn't say that people openly and specifically lauding Adolph Hitler were getting 35% of the vote.

    I was referring to quotes in the first Guardian article.

    "Since 1990, more than €2tn has gone from the old West Germany to the old East Germany, not as a loan but as a subsidy. But it hasn’t worked. In 2004, years before the financial crisis and the new wave of asylum seekers, elections to the Saxon state parliament gave 9.2% to the National Democratic party of Germany (NPD), which hardly bothers even to disguise its neo-Nazi heart.That NPD vote has now shifted almost entirely to the Alternative for Germany party (AfD), which has been able to function, though not without strain, as a home both for Tea Party-style alt-right libertarians and for people who carefully proclaim themselves to be both nationalist and socialist. The AfD’s thumping results – up to 35.5% – in parts of the old East Germany now threaten to deform the whole of German national politics. The unnerving images from Chemnitz are merely the most obvious sign of this destabilisation."

    Alternative for Germany Party:
    "The AfD was founded as a centre-rightconservative party of the middle class with a tendency toward 'soft' Euroscepticism, being generally supportive of Germany's membership in the European Union but critical of further European integration, the existence of the euro currency, and the bailouts by the eurozone for countries such as Greece.[93][94][95] At that time, the party also advocated support for Swiss-style direct democracy, dissolution of the Eurozone, opposition to immigration, and opposed gay marriage.[15]

    By May 2015, the party became polarised into two factions, one centred around Lucke and his core economic policies and another group led by Petry, which favoured an anti-immigration approach. The result was that Lucke's faction left to found a new party: the Alliance for Progress and Renewal,[96] later renamed the Liberal Conservative Reformers in November 2016. AfD also supports the privatization of social programs and state owned enterprises.[97][98]
    German nationalism[edit]

    The party was founded on opposition to Germany's financial support of other Eurozone states and the third main point of its initial platform called for Germany to cede no further elements of its sovereignty to the EU without approval via a referendum.[31] Over time, a focus on German nationalism, on reclaiming Germany's sovereignty and national pride, especially in repudiation to Germany's culture of shame with regard to its Nazi past, became more central in AfD's ideology and a central plank in its populist appeals.[2][3][4] For example, Petry, who led the moderate wing of the party, said that Germany should reclaim the German word "völkisch" from its Nazi connotations,[99] while Höcke, who is an example of the more right-wing views, regularly speaks of the "Fatherland" and "Volk."[2] In January 2017, Höcke drew heavy criticism for a speech in which he stated, in reference to the Berlin Holocaust Memorial, "Germans are the only people in the world who plant a monument of shame in the heart of the capital," and criticized the "laughable policy of coming to terms with the past."[100][101] Höcke continued that Germany should make a "180 degree" turn with regard to its sense of national pride.[2]
    The party also describes German national identity as under threat both from European integration and from the presence and accommodation of immigrants and refugees within Germany; its anti-immigration message is often articulated in this way, especially with regard to Islam.[3][4]
    Homosexuality and feminism[edit]

    According to its interim electoral manifesto, the party is against same-sex marriage and favours civil unions. The party is also against adoption for same-sex couples.[102] The left-leaning newspaper Die Tageszeitung described the group as advocating 'old gender roles'.[103]Wolfgang Gedeon, an elected AfD representative, has included feminism, along with "sexualism," and "migrationism", in an ideology he calls "green communism" that he opposes, and argues for family values as part of German identity.[104] As AfD has campaigned for traditional roles for women, it has aligned itself with groups opposed to modern feminism.[105] The youth wing of the party has used social media to campaign against aspects of modern feminism, with the support of party leadership.[106]"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany

    That's certainly far right and verging into Nazi territory for me, even if they don't use Hitler's name, and as the Guardian article pointed out and the map shows, 35% of some of the far eastern areas of Germany voted for them.

    I assure you that nowhere in America would a platform like that garner 35% of the vote. I think the Guardian author is pointing out that it might not be typical of German voters across the board, but it is not atypical of attitudes in eastern Europe.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    There are many xenophobes in AfD, but they are not the majority.
    Many are disgusted by the idea that Germany should save the whole world because of their guilt of WWII.
    And Angela Merkels 'wir shcaffen dass' is a prime example of this.
    AfD has become popular because of the failure of Merkels and Europe's immigration policies.
    I can assure you, the minit AfD glorifies Adolph Hittler they would lose at least 90 % of their voters.
    Germany is not Russia, or China, or Turkey, for that matter.

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    Germany has 20 million foreigners out of 82 million people altogether. 1 in four people leaving in Germany is not German. Majority of immigrants are from all Asian and African countries. There is no country in the world that does not have its own community in Germany. The emigrants stay quiet and mostly work. The problem is the immigrants have higher birthrates than the locals have. Roughly in two generations, in around 50 years to come, supposing no other emigrant is going in Germany from now and on, from birthrates alone the immigrant population will be in majority in Germany. As such slowly but surely the native German population will be replaced. Germany will be a thing of the past. To blame AFD? Not so sure!?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    the problem with East Germans is that they're more "eastern", or "Slavic" than other Germans
    Indeed East German politician Martin Kohlmann from Saxony recently claimed, that East Germans have more in common with Poles, Hungarians and Czechs than with West Germans (I think this applies also to Austria, Brandenburg and Mecklenburg):

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/i...-15764146.html

    "(...) Im Stadion des Chemnitzer FC soll das „Bürgergespräch“ eigentlich zu gemeinsamen Lösungen führen. Doch vor dem Stadion wirbt Martin Kohlmann für mehr Zwiespalt: Mit „Wessis“ habe man nichts gemein. Dafür aber sehr viel mit anderen Staaten. Der Gründer der rechtsgerichteten Organisation „Pro Chemnitz“, Martin Kohlmann, hat während einer Demonstration am Donnerstagabend mehr Autonomie für Sachsen und eine Annäherung an die Visegrád-Staaten Polen, Ungarn und Tschechische Republik verlangt. Diese Staaten weigern sich, trotz anders lautender Beschlüsse der EU Flüchtlinge aus Nahost und Afrika aufzunehmen. Polen und Ungarn werden von nationalkonservativen Regierungen geführt.

    Vor etwa 900 Demonstranten, die in Chemnitz gegen einen Besuch des sächsischen Ministerpräsidenten Michael Kretschmer (CDU) protestierten, rief Kohlmann die Frage ins Mikrophon, ob „wir“ mit Polen, Ungarn und Tschechen nicht mehr gemein hätten, als „mit diesen Wessis“. Es sei für ihn beispielsweise „ein Unterschied wie Tag und Nacht“, ob er mit russischen, polnischen und tschechischen Journalisten rede, oder mit westdeutschen.

    Der F.A.Z. sagte Kohlmann wenig später, Sachsen habe mit den Visegrád-Staaten „mehr gemein, als mit der westlichen Bundesrepublik“. Deshalb solle man heute „zumindest über Autonomie“ für einzelne Bundesländer reden. Man müsse „hier mehr Dinge selbst entscheiden“ können. „Wenn ein ungarischer Ministerpräsident sagt „wir wollen das nicht“, dann sollte das ein sächsischer Ministerpräsident auch sagen können“. (...)"

    The traditional border between "West" and "East" in Europe has always been the Elbe, and several decades of unified Germany after 1871 - unified by force, and by an Eastern state at that (Prussia-Brandenburg) - could not change something that is 1500 years old (at least). Austria too always had more ties with the east, also geographically (Danube river connection + location east of the Alps).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    Germany has 20 million foreigners out of 82 million people altogether. 1 in four people leaving in Germany is not German. Majority of immigrants are from all Asian and African countries. There is no country in the world that does not have its own community in Germany. The emigrants stay quiet and mostly work. The problem is the immigrants have higher birthrates than the locals have. Roughly in two generations, in around 50 years to come, supposing no other emigrant is going in Germany from now and on, from birthrates alone the immigrant population will be in majority in Germany. As such slowly but surely the native German population will be replaced. Germany will be a thing of the past. To blame AFD? Not so sure!?
    East Germany has a much smaller percent of immigrants than West Germany.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Indeed East German politician Martin Kohlmann from Saxony recently claimed, that East Germans have more in common with Poles, Hungarians and Czechs than with West Germans (I think this applies also to Austria, Brandenburg and Mecklenburg):

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/i...-15764146.html

    "(...) Im Stadion des Chemnitzer FC soll das „Bürgergespräch“ eigentlich zu gemeinsamen Lösungen führen. Doch vor dem Stadion wirbt Martin Kohlmann für mehr Zwiespalt: Mit „Wessis“ habe man nichts gemein. Dafür aber sehr viel mit anderen Staaten. Der Gründer der rechtsgerichteten Organisation „Pro Chemnitz“, Martin Kohlmann, hat während einer Demonstration am Donnerstagabend mehr Autonomie für Sachsen und eine Annäherung an die Visegrád-Staaten Polen, Ungarn und Tschechische Republik verlangt. Diese Staaten weigern sich, trotz anders lautender Beschlüsse der EU Flüchtlinge aus Nahost und Afrika aufzunehmen. Polen und Ungarn werden von nationalkonservativen Regierungen geführt.

    Vor etwa 900 Demonstranten, die in Chemnitz gegen einen Besuch des sächsischen Ministerpräsidenten Michael Kretschmer (CDU) protestierten, rief Kohlmann die Frage ins Mikrophon, ob „wir“ mit Polen, Ungarn und Tschechen nicht mehr gemein hätten, als „mit diesen Wessis“. Es sei für ihn beispielsweise „ein Unterschied wie Tag und Nacht“, ob er mit russischen, polnischen und tschechischen Journalisten rede, oder mit westdeutschen.

    Der F.A.Z. sagte Kohlmann wenig später, Sachsen habe mit den Visegrád-Staaten „mehr gemein, als mit der westlichen Bundesrepublik“. Deshalb solle man heute „zumindest über Autonomie“ für einzelne Bundesländer reden. Man müsse „hier mehr Dinge selbst entscheiden“ können. „Wenn ein ungarischer Ministerpräsident sagt „wir wollen das nicht“, dann sollte das ein sächsischer Ministerpräsident auch sagen können“. (...)"

    The traditional border between "West" and "East" in Europe has always been the Elbe, and several decades of unified Germany after 1871 - unified by force, and by an Eastern state at that (Prussia-Brandenburg) - could not change something that is 1500 years old (at least). Austria too always had more ties with the east, also geographically (Danube river connection + location east of the Alps).
    If you're going to quote me, please quote me accurately.

    This is what I said: see original post.

    "I think it almost seems to say, in parts, that the problem with East Germans is that they're more "eastern", or "Slavic" than other Germans, which is a dangerous trajectory in its own right.*...Ed. * I don't believe in trashing a whole part of Europe in this way, and, after all, the heart of Nazism in Germany was in Bavaria."

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    In Bavaria? AFAIK support for the Nazis was higher in Lutheran areas than in Catholic ones:

    https://www.semanticscholar.org/pape...3e541e87517794



    Hitler's supporters in Bavaria were mainly its Lutheran minority (ca. 30% of Bavaria were Protestants):

    http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages.../rise(n)-1.htm

    "Hitler's first electoral support came mainly from the 29% Protestant minority within Bavaria. In the May 1924 elections for the Bavarian state parliament 'most of the Volkischer vote of 17.1% came from the small town Protestant areas around Franconia'."

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    ^^I never mentioned whether religion was a factor. The discussion was west versus east. Bavaria was where Hitler was located, where he first organized, where he attempted the "Beer Hall Putsch".

    See:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch


    As to votes for the Reichstag, of course it varied year by year, but this is what it was in 1933. It would seem to support "The Guardian" author's contention that there is something different about eastern Germany.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^I never mentioned whether religion was a factor. The discussion was west versus east. Bavaria was where Hitler was located, where he first organized, where he attempted the "Beer Hall Putsch".

    See:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch


    As to votes for the Reichstag, of course it varied year by year, but this is what it was in 1933. It would seem to support "The Guardian" author's contention that there is something different about eastern Germany.

    Couldn't quickly find data for the 1930s, but this is the religious break down in the late 19th century. I don't know whether some of these areas would have been able to vote. The definite ones were indeed more Protestant, so religion may have had an impact.

    [IMG][/IMG]

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    if this is true, it is very worrysome and a far bigger threat to German democracy than far right or neo-nazism is :

    https://www.dw.com/en/chemnitz-viole...ief/a-45391328
    http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20180907_03714882

    the violence or the extent of violence by far right in Chemnitz is fake news

    not just anybody tells this
    it is Hans-Georg Maassen, head of internal German intelligence

    and the media and the politicians, they all had themselves manipulated by this fake news
    we don't know any more what part is true and what is fake

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    if this is true, it is very worrysome and a far bigger threat to German democracy than far right or neo-nazism is :

    https://www.dw.com/en/chemnitz-viole...ief/a-45391328
    http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20180907_03714882

    the violence or the extent of violence by far right in Chemnitz is fake news

    not just anybody tells this
    it is Hans-Georg Maassen, head of internal German intelligence

    and the media and the politicians, they all had themselves manipulated by this fake news
    we don't know any more what part is true and what is fake
    Don't let your biases cloud your judgement, the debate is mainly about semantics. The videos are available on the web. Nazis chased migrants; they got away and no one got hurt. Do you seriously believe that the skinhead neo-nazi looking folks who attended those demonstrations are above stuff like that?

    The ensuing uproar in the media lead to some headlines that made it look much worse than it probably was. There is no leftist conspiracy against democracy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Don't let your biases cloud your judgement, the debate is mainly about semantics. The videos are available on the web. Nazis chased migrants; they got away and no one got hurt. Do you seriously believe that the skinhead neo-nazi looking folks who attended those demonstrations are above stuff like that?
    The ensuing uproar in the media lead to some headlines that made it look much worse than it probably was. There is no leftist conspiracy against democracy.
    this is not just semantics
    some people are trying to make this bigger than it is
    to the extent that English reporters start writing in an English paper
    and Angela, and the other side of the Ocean gets worried
    because they turned some marginals into a mainstream movement
    and the other Angela, the German prime minister is happy with all these comments,
    they prove she's right and her opponents are wrong, she says
    it's becoming part of a media war

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    this is not just semantics
    some people are trying to make this bigger than it is
    to the extent that English reporters start writing in an English paper
    and Angela, and the other side of the Ocean gets worried
    because they turned some marginals into a mainstream movement
    and the other Angela, the German prime minister is happy with all these comments,
    they prove she's right and her opponents are wrong, she says
    it's becoming part of a media war
    Come on, the self-proclaimed bourgeois right immediately rushed to the defense of the nazi mob. Migrants were chased, there were nazi salutes, calls for the murder of foreigners. They brought this on themselves.

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    Sorry, I don't think that's what the article you cited as proof shows.

    This is what he said: "Referencing one of the videos posted online showing far-right protesters chasing after people who looked non-German, Maassen said: "There is no evidence to suggest that the video of this alleged incident circulating online is authentic."

    That's an extremely bizarre way of putting it. His job as head of domestic intelligence is to PROVE it's INAUTHENTIC before saying something like that. Perhaps his job is the problem: why didn't he know things had reached this pass? It's his JOB.

    These are the facts:It was unclear exactly which video Maassen was referring to in his comments to Bild — as several videos depicting similar assaults surfaced during the protests — and he did not provide further evidence backing up his claim that at least one video was faked.

    If he was going to make the kind of statement he did, then he should have done an investigation of ALL the videos, to forensically determine their authenticity.

    He sounds like another empty suit like Corey Booker. Get your facts straight before you open your mouth.

    This "other Angela" has professional experience in this area, unlike the economist Angela Merkel, and I can tell you categorically this is NOT how government officials are supposed to react to this kind of incendiary situation. DO YOUR INVESTIGATIONS, and then in as transparent a manner as possible, present the evidence.

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    unfortunately that is how it is today in politics
    politicians should folow a long time policy to do what is good for the country and to fullfill what they promised in election time
    instead they are chasing the news of today, which will be forgotten by tomorrow

    I don't say they should forget about the riots in Chemnitz
    but they should restrain themselves
    and react and act when the dust is settled and when view has become clearer

    and you're right, this Hans-Georg Maassen makes the same mistake should have been more accurate and precise before saying anything
    it only demonstrates that the events became an emotional media game

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Couldn't quickly find data for the 1930s, but this is the religious break down in the late 19th century. I don't know whether some of these areas would have been able to vote. The definite ones were indeed more Protestant, so religion may have had an impact.

    [IMG][/IMG]
    To put these maps into a bit more context.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    Just a bit of trivia: the vast majority of Americans of German descent who can't be precisely distinguished between France and Germany come from these southern and southwestern and western areas.

    These areas also practiced a Druidic like religion. I think that there is a large Gallic like substrate here, with probably higher levels of EEF originally, as well as more absorption of more "Southern European" like people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The traditional border between "West" and "East" in Europe has always been the Elbe, and several decades of unified Germany after 1871 - unified by force, and by an Eastern state at that (Prussia-Brandenburg) - could not change something that is 1500 years old (at least). Austria too always had more ties with the east, also geographically (Danube river connection + location east of the Alps).
    The above written sentence is a very wrong and misleading information. The Elbe river HAS NEVER been the border between the East and the West in any sense, historical or political one. Maybe one exception could be 40 years of so called Iron Courtain or forcible partiable replacement of population after 1945 but this as well in a very limited sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    To put these maps into a bit more context.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    Just a bit of trivia: the vast majority of Americans of German descent who can't be precisely distinguished between France and Germany come from these southern and southwestern and western areas.

    These areas also practiced a Druidic like religion. I think that there is a large Gallic like substrate here, with probably higher levels of EEF originally, as well as more absorption of more "Southern European" like people.
    I've had quite some bussiness experiences in Eastern Europe after the fall of the iron curtain.
    When the East Germans got D-Marks for there Ostmark, these 'Ossies' came to Belgium to buy consumer goods (textiles & furniture ..).
    It lasted some 15 months, untill they had spend their money they had gotten for free because of some mad West-German politician.
    The Ossies never expressed much gratitude and they didn't built their own economy, they've always relied on West-Germany.
    They always complained because they were envious of the Western Germans.
    A few years later Poland, The Chech Republic, Slowakia became consumer markets.
    I visited these countries few times. They were building their own economy from scratch, without much help from outside.
    I liked to visit these countries because there was so much optimism, being able to build their own economy, free from the communist yoke.
    I never heard somebody complain over there.
    There is still a lot of frustration going around in Eastern Germany, but IMO they only have to blaim themselves.
    This is typical Eastern German, it is not an Eastern European phenomenon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by martinmkp View Post
    The above written sentence is a very wrong and misleading information. The Elbe river HAS NEVER been the border between the East and the West in any sense, historical or political one. Maybe one exception could be 40 years of so called Iron Courtain or forcible partiable replacement of population after 1945 but this as well in a very limited sense.
    yes, I agree, we should look at the iron curtain
    this left a big imprint, all other historic doesn't have much to do with it
    it made an east-west divide in Europe, while the natural, historical divide in Europe is more north-south

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