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Thread: News about Rurikid Y-DNA: Ingegerd cheated on Yaroslav I

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    2 members found this post helpful.

    News about Rurikid Y-DNA: Ingegerd cheated on Yaroslav I

    Link to publication in Russian:

    https://space-time.ru/space-time/art...st3-21.2015.71

    https://space-time.ru/space-time/art...1.2015.71/207/

    It turns out that Vsevolod I (father of Vladimir Monomakh) was not a biological son of Yaroslav I the Wise, because his wife - Ingegerd of Sweden - cheated on him with some Varangian guy. The result of that non-paternal event was N1c among his heirs. On the other hand, the original Rurikid Y-DNA was preserved among descendants of Izyaslav I, including for example princes of Turov. If these conclusions are correct then the original Y-DNA lineage of the early Rurikids was the typically Slavic I2a-CTS10228 (I2a-Din), most common among South and East Slavs.

    I2a-Din was already found in sample Sunghir6 from Early Medieval Russia (1040-1220 AD):

    http://science.sciencemag.org/conten..._Sikora_SM.pdf

    Villain accused of cheating by Russian scientists (born in Sigtuna, from which Viking Age DNA was published recently):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingege...tter_of_Sweden

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I guess her status of a "Saint" is now very questionable:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingege...eden#Sainthood

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Was the husband's actual dna tested, i.e. was his ancient dna tested?

    If not, there's no knowing where the infidelity occurred, or, indeed, if there was infidelity.

    An example of this situation is Richard III of England. His yDna is not the same as that of putative descendants of the Plantagenets. The Beauforts sport two R1b lineages, one recently changed, but the older one is U-152. There is no way to determine where the illegitimacy occurred. One would need the ydna of Geoffrey of Anjou or at least Edward III, given that there were questions about John of Gaunt's legitimacy as well.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/int...mily-tree.html


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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Not surprising if true. More recent diggings at Rjurikovo for example have shown that Varangian settlements were already culturally mixed when they were founded. The Novgorod Varangians worshipped Slavic gods, and Slavic chieftains were known to employ Varangian mercenaries.

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    This is the exact subclade of I2a-Din which the Rurikids had, Y13498: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y13498/

    Regarding Rurikid origins:

    "The original of Primary Chronicle didn't survive, but still, the Hypatian Codex clearly separates Varangians from Rus as people, and the earliest Arab sources, such as Ibn-Khurradadhbih, also explicitly mention Rus to be 'one of the Slavic peoples'. Moreover, in Primary Chronicle it is also mentioned how Oleg (who was Rurik's contemporary, so 'Slavicization' argument is impossible) and his druzhina swore by Perun and Veles to confirm a peace treaty with Byzantium in 907, and we find the same done by Igor in 945, and again by Sviatoslav in 971. The whole mantra that Rurikids were Scandinavians starts with the Normanist theories in 18th century, furthered by 'Romanovs' (not the original line) and Gerhard Friedrich Muller, and was opposed by most sane-minded members of Russian intelligentsia, even by Rurikid descendants themselves."

    As for Ingegerd's lover:

    Real biological father of Vsevolod could actually be not just some Varangian, but even king St. Olaf of Norway himself, so his sainthood can be doubted as well. Moreover, the exact N1c subclade of Monomakh's line is distinctively Scandinavian. As for I2a1b, among the Izyaslavich descendants that turned out to belong to it were also men of Czetwertynski family, whose princely title was acknowledged also in Poland-Lithuania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Was the husband's actual dna tested, i.e. was his ancient dna tested?
    No, but it is known that king Olaf of Norway was quite intimate with Ingergerd during his exile in Russia, and it is symptomatic that she gave birth to Vsevolod (father of Monomakh, and only men of Monomaschich descent are N1c1) not so long after he left.

    So most likely king Olaf of Norway was the biological father.

    There are no similar stories about possible adultery surrounding the I2a-Din Izyaslavich branch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    No, but it is known that king Olaf of Norway was quite intimate with Ingergerd during his exile in Russia, and it is symptomatic that she gave birth to Vsevolod (father of Monomakh, and only men of Monomaschich descent are N1c1) not so long after he left.

    So most likely king Olaf of Norway was the biological father.

    There are no similar stories about possible adultery surrounding the I2a-Din Izyaslavich branch.
    Nice going. Let's smear some woman long dead who can't defend herself based on the fact that she was friendly with some man not her husband.

    That's a ridiculous conclusion from absolutely no evidence even if we were talking about contemporary people.

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    If Rurik was from Scandinavia it is highly unlikely he was I2a-Din. If Rurik was from Roslagen in Sweden, it is far more likely he was N1c than the south-east Slavic I2a-Din or the generally East Balt or Slavic R1a-Z280 that some lines (most notably the Obolenskys) have. And virtually impossible that Saint Olaf was the father, as N1c is quite rare in Norway outside of the Sami lands.
    Last edited by Joey37; 06-09-18 at 03:27.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    R1a-Z280 that some lines (most notably the Obolenskys) have.
    Those R1a bearers are addressed in this Russian study too.

    Their family lineages were modified in the 16th century to be placed better at the Tsar's court.

    So apparently they have no real descent from the Rurikids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    And virtually impossible that Saint Olaf was the father, as N1c is quite rare in Norway outside of the Sami lands.
    One of recently published Viking Age Sigtuna samples was N1c and autosomally Norwegian, so not impossible at all.

    Does King Olaf II Haraldsson have any known living descendants or relatives with the same Y-DNA?

    Is it possible to check if King Olaf of Norway was indeed N1c?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Nice going. Let's smear some woman long dead who can't defend herself based on the fact that she was friendly with some man not her husband.

    That's a ridiculous conclusion from absolutely no evidence even if we were talking about contemporary people.
    Yaroslav the Wise had sons Vsevolod and Izyaslav born by Ingegerd of Sweden. All modern Rurikids whose DNA was tested are descended from them (except for Rurikids with R1a who turned out to be false Rurikids with genealogy modified in the 16th century).

    Descendants of Vsevolod are N1c and descendants of Izyaslav are I2a.

    Vsevolod was born shortly after King Olaf departed back to Norway (his exile in Russia lasted for one year).

    So there is a possibility of non-paternal event in N1c line. There is no similar story surrounding I2a line.

    If Ingegerd did not cheat, then the only other option, is that Vsevolod was adopted, not her biological son.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    If Rurik was from Scandinavia it is highly unlikely he was I2a-Din.
    There is no account which says Rurik was Scandinavian. We don't even know if he existed (he is half-legendary).

    However, Yaroslav I is a historical figure.

    Vsevolod and Izyaslav were both supposed to be sons of Yaroslav I and Ingegerd.

    One of them was N1c the other one was I2a, based on DNA testing of all of their direct paternal descendants.

    Vsevolod (N1c) was born shortly after King Olaf II left Russia (where he had spent one year) back to Norway.

    And there is a story about a romance between Olaf and Ingegerd. No similar stories surrounding the I2a line.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    There is no account which says Rurik was Scandinavian. We don't even know if he existed (he is half-legendary).

    However, Yaroslav I is a historical figure.

    Vsevolod and Izyaslav were both supposed to be sons of Yaroslav I and Ingegerd.

    One of them was N1c the other one was I2a, based on DNA testing of all of their direct paternal descendants.

    Vsevolod (N1c) was born shortly after King Olaf II left Russia (where he had spent one year) back to Norway.

    And there is a story about a romance between Olaf and Ingegerd. No similar stories surrounding the I2a line.
    How many centuries until the putative tested descendants?

    For someone with your disdain for women, and in this case their fidelity, how on earth could you know there wasn't a "non-paternal" event in that time span?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    How many centuries until the putative tested descendants?

    For someone with your disdain for women, and in this case their fidelity, how on earth could you know there wasn't a "non-paternal" event in that time span?
    It is possible to know. Both Sviatoslav and Vsevolod has multiple sons. If men from at least two lines descending from each one of them were tested to determine the haplogroup of the Princes, there are only two possible explanations for why their descendants today have different haplogroups:

    1- They were brothers from different fathers. So either their mother cheated, or one of them was adopted, or she had the one of the sons from before the marriage (idk their history too well).

    2- Some time later, somehow, all the descendants of one of them (let's say Vsevold), so all of Vsevold's descendants remained sonless and they all "adopted" sons belonging to the same subclade (N1c). So either the descendants of Vsevold's sons adopted en masse from the same source and had no sons of their own, or they were all cheated by their wives with men of the same subclade.

    The second one is quite unlikely. This is only if they tested at least two branches descending from each Prince though. I can't understand the article, I don't know if they did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    It is possible to know. Both Sviatoslav and Vsevolod has multiple sons. If men from at least two lines descending from each one of them were tested to determine the haplogroup of the Princes, there are only two possible explanations for why their descendants today have different haplogroups:

    1- They were brothers from different fathers. So either their mother cheated, or one of them was adopted, or she had the one of the sons from before the marriage (idk their history too well).

    2- Some time later, somehow, all the descendants of one of them (let's say Vsevold), so all of Vsevold's descendants remained sonless and they all "adopted" sons belonging to the same subclade (N1c). So either the descendants of Vsevold's sons adopted en masse from the same source and had no sons of their own, or they were all cheated by their wives with men of the same subclade.

    The second one is quite unlikely. This is only if they tested at least two branches descending from each Prince though. I can't understand the article, I don't know if they did.
    I don't either, Ownstyler. I'm just trying to keep the discussion rational and logical.

    The y line analysis of the "descendant" groups would have to be very resolved, because there would presumably be a lot of the broad clade lineages around in these areas.

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    This particular question should not even be discussed until we have our hands on the DNA of the actual Yaroslav I to prove what his y-dna line actually is. As for the theory exposed by Tomenable, I say with all respect that there are a lot of generations between them and current descendents and I do not believe that all the descendents of a son and the other carry respectively only N1c and I2a, that being said, how do you claim with all certainty the fact of the descendents being N1c and I2a ( how could you, unless you know the people who tested personally or you have some kind of list with the descendents names and their genealogical trees).

    For instance, I believe the example named by Angela to be the perfect one for the argument I am making. The y-dna of Richard III was G2a while the remaining modern Plantagenets (the dukes of beaufort) are R1b-U152 but where did the line break, well we cannot know that unless we test the dna of edward iii directly, it might turn out that edward iii belongs to one of the aformentioned lineages or none of them.
    As for the honour of long dead women, I have to say that most people who don't have a good historical knowledge believe that women were much more faithful in the past than nowadays, I believe the exact opposite but that could be argued against so I will refrain.
    What I have to say is that until conclusive evidence is found regarding this question and the rurikid one, there is no need to speculate and difamate long dead women and the same should be done with the men.

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    I forgot to say and I apologise for the quantity of text some of you read in my previous post.
    My family claims descent from Edward III through John of Gaunt and until someone proves definitively that John of Gaunt is not the son of Edward III, I will continue to claim his descent. What I saw many times written all over the web was that Edward III was away in France at the time of John of Gaunt's supposed conception but how could people today know when he was conceived children might be born in the 28th to the 42nd week and I say that not according to some website but because I have a mother who still is a genecologist and she vouched for that.
    Still even if Edward III was away all that time, if he was sure that John of Gaunt was not his son do you think that he would have aknowledged him has his son and even if he did might I remind the case of the spanish princess Juana la Beltraneja who even with the acknowledgement of the king her father henry iv of castile was by many considered illegitimate. La Beltraneja was actually a pejorative term that meant daughter of Beltran her supposed father.

    Sorry for wrighting this much but I might get over excited when speaking about history and genetics, two of my passions when it comes to investigation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suebiking View Post
    This particular question should not even be discussed until we have our hands on the DNA of the actual Yaroslav I to prove what his y-dna line actually is. As for the theory exposed by Tomenable, I say with all respect that there are a lot of generations between them and current descendents and I do not believe that all the descendents of a son and the other carry respectively only N1c and I2a, that being said, how do you claim with all certainty the fact of the descendents being N1c and I2a ( how could you, unless you know the people who tested personally or you have some kind of list with the descendents names and their genealogical trees).

    For instance, I believe the example named by Angela to be the perfect one for the argument I am making. The y-dna of Richard III was G2a while the remaining modern Plantagenets (the dukes of beaufort) are R1b-U152 but where did the line break, well we cannot know that unless we test the dna of edward iii directly, it might turn out that edward iii belongs to one of the aformentioned lineages or none of them.
    As for the honour of long dead women, I have to say that most people who don't have a good historical knowledge believe that women were much more faithful in the past than nowadays, I believe the exact opposite but that could be argued against so I will refrain.
    What I have to say is that until conclusive evidence is found regarding this question and the rurikid one, there is no need to speculate and difamate long dead women and the same should be done with the men.
    When we're talking about the Plantagenets, I suppose you'd have to go back and try to get dna from the first Plantagenet king of England, yes? Unfortunately, as I'm sure you know, the remains of Henry and Richard at Fontevrault Abbey were destroyed.

    The next one would be John, and his remains are in Worcester Cathedral. It would be possible, even if difficult, to do an analysis of the remains, but I doubt there's much appetite to do it among the royalty and nobility of Europe.

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    You said appetite, I say it is because most people and certainly the nobility are afraid that the unalienable truths about history and the lineages of kings might be a lie. For instance the current candidate to the portuguese throne had his dna tested (I think for a study but I don't remember which), but the results were never shown to the general public. Now, was it because he was afraid it wouldn't match the y-dna of the first king of Portugal which would have been tested back in 2006. I don't know, it might be that he did not want it shown and scrutinized or he was as I said aprehensive regarding the results since it has been rumored and it was certainly a gossip back then that Miguel I of Portugal and his younger siblings were all the product of the queen's lasciveness and it was said that she continued having children long after the king stopped lying with her.

    Anyway, I believe the reason why people don't test the Dna of long dead kings at least in Portugal has more to do with the catholic belief of the population. Catholics dislike opening tombs since once entombed the deceased should rest forever undisturbed, my parents hate the idea of tombs being opened for scientific purposes unless it is to restore the tomb itself or to change the deceased to a more dignified place like Richard III of England. These days countries with republican regimes lack a nobility still locked to the past as it is the case of england and spain because these countries have monarchies and as such the noble titles have a certain weight (rights to do things like having a private army or to hunt in places where other people can't etc. ( I hope I made myself understandable since sometimes I get lost in my own words).

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    So Yngvi was N1c?

    Olaf II of Norway = apparently he had N1c haplogroup,
    was son of Harald Grenske, who
    was son of Gudrød Bjørnsson, who
    was son of Bjørn Farmann, who
    was son of Harald Fairhair, who
    was son of Halfdan the Black, who
    was son of Gudrød the Hunter, who
    was son of Halfdan the Mild, who
    was son of Eystein Halfdansson, who
    was son of Halfdan Hvitbeinn, who
    was son of Olof Trätälja, who
    was son of Ingjald illråde, who
    was son of Anund, who
    was son of Yngvar Harra, who
    was son of Eysteinn, who
    was son of Eadgils (in Beowulf), who
    was son of Óttarr vendilkráka (Ohthere in Beowulf), who
    was son of Egil Vendelkråke (Ongentheow in Beowulf), who
    was son of Aun the Old, who
    was son of Jorund, who
    was son of Yngvi, who
    was son of Alrek, who
    was son of Agne, who
    was son of Dag the Wise , who
    was son of Dyggvi, who
    was son of Domar, who
    was son of Domalde, who
    was son of Visbur, who
    was son of Vanlandi, who
    was son of Sveigðir, who
    was son of Fjölnir, who
    was son of Freyr, who
    was son of Njörðr, who
    was son of Yngvi = founder of the Yngling dynasty, N1c haplogroup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suebiking View Post
    You said appetite, I say it is because most people and certainly the nobility are afraid that the unalienable truths about history and the lineages of kings might be a lie. For instance the current candidate to the portuguese throne had his dna tested (I think for a study but I don't remember which), but the results were never shown to the general public. Now, was it because he was afraid it wouldn't match the y-dna of the first king of Portugal which would have been tested back in 2006. I don't know, it might be that he did not want it shown and scrutinized or he was as I said aprehensive regarding the results since it has been rumored and it was certainly a gossip back then that Miguel I of Portugal and his younger siblings were all the product of the queen's lasciveness and it was said that she continued having children long after the king stopped lying with her.

    Anyway, I believe the reason why people don't test the Dna of long dead kings at least in Portugal has more to do with the catholic belief of the population. Catholics dislike opening tombs since once entombed the deceased should rest forever undisturbed, my parents hate the idea of tombs being opened for scientific purposes unless it is to restore the tomb itself or to change the deceased to a more dignified place like Richard III of England. These days countries with republican regimes lack a nobility still locked to the past as it is the case of england and spain because these countries have monarchies and as such the noble titles have a certain weight (rights to do things like having a private army or to hunt in places where other people can't etc. ( I hope I made myself understandable since sometimes I get lost in my own words).
    I understand you, and meant much the same thing. They are probably afraid their ydna doesn't match that of any samples from the remains of kings which could be tested.

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    DNA of prince Gleb Svyatoslavovich from the grave in Chernihiv cathedral was tested, he was I2a-Din not N1c:

    Gleb Svyatoslavovich in this publication about Viking Age DNA is the sample VK542:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/703405v1

    If I'm not mistaken, Gleb Svyatoslavovich was directly descended from Rurik himself.

    And since he was I2a-Din, it makes the theory about I2a-Din Rurik more probable.

    In terms of autosomal DNA, Gleb Svyatoslavovich (VK542) was ca. 71% Slavic and 25% South Euro (Table S6):

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...?download=true

    =====

    Another Rurikid prince tested in this publication was Izyaslav Ingvarovich - his haplogroup was R1a-L1029.

    In terms of autosomal DNA, Izyaslav Ingvarovich (buried in Lutsk) - sample VK541 - was over 95% Slavic.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    If I were to wager, I would say Izyaslav Ingvarovich is YP417, the most common Eastern Slavic subclade of L1029. Izyaslav was descended from Vladimir II Monomakh, husband of Gytha of Wessex and grandson of a Byzantine emperor. Gleb was descended from Yaroslav the Wise; which was the true line of Rurik? It is unlikely, if Rurik was in origin a Swede, that it would be I2a-Din. But L1029 is found along the Baltic and has made its way to Sweden; who's to say a Wend from northeast Germany voyaged to Sweden and a few generations later the line is now Swedish-speaking and produces Rurik, who voyages to Russia.

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    Coming back to Gleb's autosomal DNA (his grandmother was Ingegerd):

    Ingegerd's mother would be "Polish-like":

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrid_of_the_Obotrites

    Ingegerd's paternal grandmother as well:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A...99tos%C5%82awa

    So Ingegerd could be >3/4 "Polish-like" autosomally, not "Swedish-like"...
    Last edited by Tomenable; 19-07-19 at 12:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    If I were to wager, I would say Izyaslav Ingvarovich is YP417, the most common Eastern Slavic subclade of L1029. Izyaslav was descended from Vladimir II Monomakh, husband of Gytha of Wessex and grandson of a Byzantine emperor. Gleb was descended from Yaroslav the Wise; which was the true line of Rurik? It is unlikely, if Rurik was in origin a Swede, that it would be I2a-Din. But L1029 is found along the Baltic and has made its way to Sweden; who's to say a Wend from northeast Germany voyaged to Sweden and a few generations later the line is now Swedish-speaking and produces Rurik, who voyages to Russia.
    Another Rus Viking was YP417, the Rurikid prince was not. YP417 to my knowledge is not common in Scandinavian L1029. It’s mostly basal or YP263. Assuming as you say that it was a process of assimilation before migrating to Russia.

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    Sorry, I was just thinking on two streams at once. If it was a native line, it would be YP417, but if not, YP263 would be the best Swedish candidate for it.

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