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Thread: Interesting Maps and Graphs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    maybe this will happen. but hopefully by the time this happens race or ethnicity will have no value anymore for identity or sociology. it shouldn't even matter now if you are black or white but obviously it does. quite a lot or it wouldn't be written in the ID. but at least those categories are flexible and change together with society.
    Reality suggests the very opposite is happening. There are non-trival differences between people that make this rejection of the concept of ethnicity baseless, and anti-scientific.

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    Leftists are pathetic. They whine about global warming, but reject science that violates their baseless rethoric.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Leftists are pathetic. They whine about global warming, but reject science that violates their baseless rethoric.
    You made a statement, please explain it. Which scientific research is more reliable then UN reports and deny climate change?
    https://www.un.org/en/sections/issue...limate-change/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    You made a statement, please explain it. Which scientific research is more reliable then UN reports and deny climate change?
    https://www.un.org/en/sections/issue...limate-change/
    Not denying it. But I'm pointing out that leftists try to present themselves as pro-science, except when it conflicts with their agenda.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Not denying it. But I'm pointing out that leftists try to present themselves as pro-science, except when it conflicts with their agenda.
    Everybody lies especially in politics but check again who is more liar, Leftist or Rightest
    https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/13/o...an-others.html

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    The NYTs is an obviously left-leaning news organization. I pass by the HQs everyday. They might as well have the bums that sleep outside of it, write for them.

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    Keeping with the thread, here's some info:

    "Tonight, 62,000 New Yorkers will sleep in homeless shelters, the most since the Great Depression"

    https://www.coalitionforthehomeless....new-york-city/

    "How many people are homeless? Every night, more than 63,000 people sleep in the New York City municipal shelter system — up 43% from 10 years ago"

    https://www.bowery.org/homelessness/

    DeBlasio is probably the worst mayor NYC has had in recent history. NYC is a cesspool of poverty. He has ruined the advances made by Bloomberg and Giuliani.

    These people are homeless because they have mental issues. They're doing drugs and harrassing people in public. They need to be put in refugee-style camps.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Keeping with the thread, here's some info:

    "Tonight, 62,000 New Yorkers will sleep in homeless shelters, the most since the Great Depression"

    https://www.coalitionforthehomeless....new-york-city/

    "How many people are homeless? Every night, more than 63,000 people sleep in the New York City municipal shelter system — up 43% from 10 years ago"

    https://www.bowery.org/homelessness/

    DeBlasio is probably the worst mayor NYC has had in recent history. NYC is a cesspool of poverty. He has ruined the advances made by Bloomberg and Giuliani.

    These people are homeless because they have mental issues. They're doing drugs and harrassing people in public. They need to be put in refugee-style camps.
    While the corruption in NYC is continuing unabated and maybe even has gotten worse, NYC is not a poor city. It has attracted a young, energetic, high salaried crowd and a lot of tech companies. Wall Street is going gangbusters. There are infrastructure projects all over the place. The place has a vigorous vibe to it. Maybe the old people and minorities are being squeezed out because the rents keep going up but that happens in every downtown/up town area that is getting gentrified.

    As far as homeless are concerned, at some point we stopped warehousing mentally ill people. I think it happened under Reagan but don't quote me on it. Unless we as a society collectively change our mind about what to do about mentally ill people there will be homeless people everywhere, particularly in States with good weather. Now not all homeless are mentally ill. Some are just economically distressed because of job losses, medical bills, etc, etc.

    On the other hand be glad you're not in Chicago or god forbid, Boston!

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    On the subject of preferential treatment I think we should base it on economic disadvantage rather than race.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No of cigarettes per person per year worldwide.

    I'm convinced the numbers are as low as that for Italy because fewer women smoke there than in other countries. Italian men smoke like chimneys.




    I was in Milan a few years ago. Right under a giant No Smoking sign and within a few meters from a carabinieri was a young Italian, furiously smoking.

    Evading or defying the law has become a national sport in both Italy and Greece.

    My pet peeve is graffiti. It has gotten out of hand in Greece. I know it existed even in Ancient Greece but it's just too much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    While the corruption in NYC is continuing unabated and maybe even has gotten worse, NYC is not a poor city. It has attracted a young, energetic, high salaried crowd and a lot of tech companies. Wall Street is going gangbusters. There are infrastructure projects all over the place. The place has a vigorous vibe to it. Maybe the old people and minorities are being squeezed out because the rents keep going up but that happens in every downtown/up town area that is getting gentrified.

    As far as homeless are concerned, at some point we stopped warehousing mentally ill people. I think it happened under Reagan but don't quote me on it. Unless we as a society collectively change our mind about what to do about mentally ill people there will be homeless people everywhere, particularly in States with good weather. Now not all homeless are mentally ill. Some are just economically distressed because of job losses, medical bills, etc, etc.

    On the other hand be glad you're not in Chicago or god forbid, Boston!
    Yes, NYC is very opulent, and there's massive wealth being generated everyday. That's why it is called the "Capital of the World". I think gentrification is beneficial to the community as a whole. But ultimately, it will be the wealthiest that are the best off; that's only natural. Like I've said, hierarchical society, and divisions of class are natural and inevitable.

    Yes, I also agree there's also people that are economically distressed for non-mental reasons. I don't think they should be put in with people that are mentally ill. They need to address their issues in a manner that is appropriate for their situation.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I was in Milan a few years ago. Right under a giant No Smoking sign and within a few meters from a carabinieri was a young Italian, furiously smoking.

    Evading or defying the law has become a national sport in both Italy and Greece.

    My pet peeve is graffiti. It has gotten out of hand in Greece. I know it existed even in Ancient Greece but it's just too much.
    I completely agree. It's the thing I hate most about Italy: graffiti.

    I don't get it. Here, many of the homes are not what I consider clean inside, but those people wouldn't dream of scrawling graffiti or not picking up after their dog. There, it's the opposite. You could literally eat your meals off my family members' floors, but they do not pick up after their dog. They don't put graffiti on buildings either, thank God, but a lot of young people do.

    I also hate smoking. It killed my father finally. He started at 12, he told me, and just couldn't stop. It got him in his seventies. He used to smoke a pack and a half to two packs a day of Lucky Strikes, Lord help us. I'm ashamed to say, though, that perhaps because I loved him so much and subconsciously associate the smell of pipe tobacco (which he took to in later life thinking it was better) with him, I find it attractive to smell it on a man.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Carbon footprint intensity by electricity consumed:



    See for complete map
    https://www.electricitymap.org/?page...rue&wind=false

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I was in Milan a few years ago. Right under a giant No Smoking sign and within a few meters from a carabinieri was a young Italian, furiously smoking.

    Evading or defying the law has become a national sport in both Italy and Greece.

    My pet peeve is graffiti. It has gotten out of hand in Greece. I know it existed even in Ancient Greece but it's just too much.
    I was always too cheap to take up smoking (do you know what those things cost per pack?) . . . but it's graffiti that galls me. What is the urge to trash someone else's house, building or a public facility?

    I had a professor back in my college days (way, way back in the 1970's) that told me that graffiti was art and a valid means of self-expression. I always wondered what he would have thought of some self-expression being applied to his own house?

    I was vacationing in Italy about a decade ago and was depressed by the volume of graffiti (and by the number of seemingly unemployed young people in the cafes . . . perhaps these two observations are connected).

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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    I was always too cheap to take up smoking (do you know what those things cost per pack?) . . . but it's graffiti that galls me. What is the urge to trash someone else's house, building or a public facility?

    I had a professor back in my college days (way, way back in the 1970's) that told me that graffiti was art and a valid means of self-expression. I always wondered what he would have thought of some self-expression being applied to his own house?

    I was vacationing in Italy about a decade ago and was depressed by the volume of graffiti (and by the number of seemingly unemployed young people in the cafes . . . perhaps these two observations are connected).
    I hated seeing graffiti on historic monuments, when I was in Portugal. Especially that Antifa garbage.

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    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/07/01/194952/

    Perhaps in next 5 years we will see the major consumer genomics DNA testing companies move on the medical grade sequencing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Reality suggests the very opposite is happening. There are non-trival differences between people that make this rejection of the concept of ethnicity baseless, and anti-scientific.
    i won't say this isn't possible but what are some of those non-trivial differences between races or ethnicities? and you said differences between people which is something different and way more important. if there are non-trivial differences between races it still has no value for the individual person and the specific genes that this person carries. these genetic differences do not have to be tied to raceconcepts and definitly not in the future where we might even be able to modify the genome.

    those ethnicity concepts might be interessting for population genetics but not for a persons identitiy.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    As Martin Luther King Jr. said, every human being should be judged by the content of his or her own character. That's absolutely correct.

    It's also correct, as Jovialis was implying, that the average scores of one group on a test for, say, addiction to alcohol and drugs, or, say, for Type 2 diabetes, as scientists are beginning to discover might be the case for South Asians, might be higher than those of some other group. That is extremely important to know from a health perspective. We NEED information like this for proper health care. Some groups benefit more from one drug than another. These are things we are finding out.

    Now, that doesn't mean that every South Asian has a higher propensity toward Type 2 Diabetes than every person of European descent. That isn't how it works. People have to have some basic level of understanding of simple math, and what averages mean, and what a curve of results means, if not advanced statistics.

    Now, let's say, simply for the the sake of argument, that someday the tests are accurate enough, as does indeed seem to be the case at least tentatively right now, to show that this applies to intelligence, mental illnesses, and on and on, as well as, say musical ability.

    Are you suggesting that scientists shouldn't pursue that knowledge? First of all, how can we "fix" the human genome, if we can't study the different variations, the different snps involved. Or, are you saying we should deny science because we want every group in the world to have exactly the same innate advantages and disadvantages? So, ideology is supposed to trump science? We're going to go back to the Inquisition and Galileo being threatened if he didn't recant?

    If that's the case, I fear for the world.

    Let me also make another thing clear. In no way should anyone imply or should it even be contemplated that because on "average" some group should have more of a disadvantage than some other group, the disadvantaged group should lose their civil rights or be treated as second class citizens or made some sort of serfs, or anything else similar. Neither is it unimportant, however. I DO NOT want the neurosurgeon operating on my brain to have gotten into the university, into the hospital, because of his or her ethnic group. I want absolute meritocracy: color, religion, and sex blind when it comes to qualifications for taking certain courses, getting certain degrees or jobs.

    Now, as things stand right now, we can't "fix" the genome on a broad level. We can target one gene and try to switch it off. They may be able to do it with hemophilia, which is great. We don't know all the genes responsible right now for tendency to Type II diabetes. It's one of those diseases where multiple genes are involved, so we can't fix it yet. However, a doctor should absolutely know when she has a patient of South Asian ancestry to double check sugar levels, be extra diligent about encouraging the maintenance of low weight and on and on. That's not racism or some other b.s. That's MEDICINE. I know a family of Near Eastern descent. Their poor daughter was ill for years and no doctors could figure out what was wrong with her until she went to the Hospital for Joint Disease, where an Arab doctor doing a fellowship there almost immediately diagnosed her with Mediterranean Familial Fever.

    Now, intelligence is another trait affected by many genes. "Fixing" genes in any member of any group who struggles with cognitive processing is a long way off. Parents are asking doctors to screen embryos, if you can believe it, to only let the "smart" ones be implanted. Problem is, we don't know enough yet, and can test for only a few snps, and anyway, if neither of the parents is exactly high IQ material, there's not much they're going to be able to choose from? Why on earth do you think that when people go to sperm banks they always want sperm only from donors who are doctors or lawyers or accountants or engineers? What nobody wants to admit is a reality that everyone, or at least most people, acknowledge in private.

    There's just a whole lot of hypocrisy going on.

    The nurture versus nature argument is over and done with. Your genome is much, much more significant in determining who you are than how you were raised.

    I used to be against genetic manipulation of embryos, but I've changed my mind. Yes, it seems gross to me, as if we're creating androids who will all be more or less alike, but the reality is that you can't be a successfully functioning person in the world technology is creating unless you have a certain intellect. The sooner they can ensure that children being born won't have deficits in that area, or propensity to terrible diseases, the better.

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    i know that ethnicity can be interessting for population genetics, Angela. i also did not want to argue about the effects that certain genes have on certain traits and question if we should examine these effects. of course we should. but as you agree with me it has no value for a persons identity, since this identity is always determined by the genetics that this person has and not by the genetics the person could potentially have. so race should have no value only the specific traits you are looking at.

    for the thing with the genetic manipulation i did not want to say that some genes are better than others but that a person's race will be an even worse indicator for a persons genome than it is now. the same effect you would have with sufficient ethnic mixing but this way you can change single genes and "tear" them out of their "context" in just one generation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Now, as things stand right now, we can't "fix" the genome on a broad level. We can target one gene and try to switch it off.
    this will certainly change in the future. it is already possible to fix defective genes and not just turn genes off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    We don't know all the genes responsible right now for tendency to Type II diabetes. It's one of those diseases where multiple genes are involved, so we can't fix it yet. However, a doctor should absolutely know when she has a patient of South Asian ancestry to double check sugar levels, be extra diligent about encouraging the maintenance of low weight and on and on. That's not racism or some other b.s. That's MEDICINE. I know a family of Near Eastern descent. Their poor daughter was ill for years and no doctors could figure out what was wrong with her until she went to the Hospital for Joint Disease, where an Arab doctor doing a fellowship there almost immediately diagnosed her with Mediterranean Familial Fever.
    and how long into the future do you think this will have any meaning? at some point you would have to implement genetic screenings. wouldn't this be way better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Or, are you saying we should deny science because we want every group in the world to have exactly the same innate advantages and disadvantages?
    no. i think in the future we will not think in groups anymore anyway. at least not in those ethnic groups.

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    @Alichu
    There is absolutely nothing to suggest that people will stop thinking along ethnic or group lines. I find your observation to be baseless, considering the very opposite is happening. People naturally tribalize, even people within the same ethnicity, triblize in terms of religion, culture, etc. Your assumption seems rather ideological rather than something based on an honest assesment of reality. There is no way billions of people are going to all want to give up their identities, to be part of some amorphous, faceless mass.

    You can't even accept scientists as a single-community, in regards to your conspiratorial stance towards peer-review. Everyone needs to think the same way in terms of their grouping, yet there must be anarchy in academics?! You have to be joking.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    @Alichu
    There is absolutely nothing to suggest that people will stop thinking along ethnic or group lines. I find your observation to be baseless, considering the very opposite is happening. People naturally tribalize, even people within the same ethnicity, triblize in terms of religion, culture, etc. Your assumption seems rather ideological rather than something based on an honest assesment of reality. There is no way billions of people are going to all want to give up their identities, to be part of some amorphous, faceless mass.

    You can't even accept scientists as a single-community, in regards to your conspiratorial stance towards peer-review.
    Whether we like it or not, people will always divide themselves into groups. Isolation and subsequent genetic drift takes care of the rest.

    You think the quarter of the world's population (or more), which is Han Chinese is going to stop being an ethnic group with its own particular characteristics? I very much doubt it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Whether we like it or not, people will always divide themselves into groups. Isolation and subsequent genetic drift takes care of the rest.

    You think the quarter of the world's population (or more), which is Han Chinese is going to stop being an ethnic group with its own particular characteristics? I very much doubt it.
    china is obviously in a very different situation. what do you think about the particular characteristics of swedes? or dutch? or french? or italians? or more extreme (define particular characteristics), swiss?
    or "white" americans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    @Alichu
    There is absolutely nothing to suggest that people will stop thinking along ethnic or group lines. I find your observation to be baseless, considering the very opposite is happening. People naturally tribalize, even people within the same ethnicity, triblize in terms of religion, culture, etc. Your assumption seems rather ideological rather than something based on an honest assesment of reality. There is no way billions of people are going to all want to give up their identities, to be part of some amorphous, faceless mass.

    You can't even accept scientists as a single-community, in regards to your conspiratorial stance towards peer-review. Everyone needs to think the same way in terms of their grouping, yet there must be anarchy in academics?! You have to be joking.
    my argument was solely about ethnic groupings. that's why i wrote "at least not in those ethnic groups".
    remember that article about the white marble statues of the antiquity. this article was based on a book called "the history of white people" in which the author concludes that the ethnic groups like for example white become more and more inclusive and in the end they will lose their meaning. and of course this doesn't have to happen in the whole world. but if it happens in america it happens and these groups start to change in america.
    there was recently an article here in the newspaper about "white" people becoming a minority in america and how populists in europe already try to make fear among their sibjects. to prevent this the guy who was interviewed suggested to lower the number of migrants a bit so that the mixing happens a bit slower. after a while the racial categories would merge anyway because there won't be many unmixed individuals left and the gradients will have a finer structure. but this way the ethnic and racial categories have time to expand, become more colorfull and accomodate to society.

    in the future of the west you might still have genetic groups but they will be different, more mixed and they might not be based on ethnicity at all. definitly possible. but other factors like religion and culture or real personal traits(partially genetics but not ethnicity) will be more important.

    and unless you didn't mean ethnic groups i find your observation also a bit baseless since i can't observe your theory here in germany, switzerland and some other parts of europe. look at reality, the groups who want to identify with common ancestry are shrinking.
    sure, right now an individual might still identify a bit with his/her ancestry. but there is already no urge anymore to form groups based on this in the majority of the population.
    Last edited by Ailchu; 06-07-19 at 23:24.

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    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    china is obviously in a very different situation. what do you think about the particular characteristics of swedes? or dutch? or french? or italians? or more extreme (define particular characteristics), swiss?
    or "white" americans?
    I think the Dutch and Scandinavians are far closer to each other than either is to Italians. Italians are, of course, a bit heterogeneous, so let's talk about, say, Scandinavians versus Central (Lazio) to Southern Italians. I think they are very different in terms of lots of traits, both physical and psychological.

    Let's start with the trivial: physical appearance. On "average", they look very different.

    Then look at mental health characteristics. All ethnic groups have members who carry genes for every kind of mental illness, but the "prevalence" by ethnic group varies by specific type. Don't hold me to specifics, because I'm going by memory, but I think Scandinavians have a higher tendency to clinical depression. They also have higher statistics for suicide. Same for cancer of the colon and for alcoholism. The latter is at least true for the British Isles and the Netherlands, and perhaps Norway. Certainly it's true for Finland. I think with Italians it may be anxiety and bipolar disorders, and things like high blood pressure. In terms of violence, it's much less often suicide, but more often "crimes of passion". Which specific traits don't matter. Every group has good ones and bad ones. The point is that they differ.

    Then there are what you might call social/psychological traits. Imo there is a large difference in terms of introversion/extroversion. I remember that years ago a Finn posted a picture on either this site or another one of Finns waiting for a bus. It made a HUGE impression on me. There were perhaps 5or 7 I remember it. Not ONE was talking to the others; in fact there was more than five feet between each of them. You would NEVER see that in Italy. People would start talking, complaining perhaps, perhaps even arguing, but at least engaging. Now I'm sure they like it that way and that's fine, but I could never live in a country like that.

    I could go on and on, but you must know what I'm talking about.

    Now, if Italians want to marry Scandinavians and vice versa and so the differences disappear, or, as here, all these Irish and Italian people intermarry and so the specific "ethnic" traits get diluted, I'm not going to tell them they shouldn't do it, but I didn't do it myself. It didn't feel "comfortable". I didn't feel as if I fit with their families or they with mine. Now, for Italian Americans it's different. It's different for my children, but as they get older even they seem to be gravitating toward possible "mates" who are at least partially Italian.

    Whether we like it or not, marriages or partnerships or whatever you want to call them, between people of similar backgrounds are less stressful, and less often end in divorce. Now, those are averages, statistics, there are always individual cases where it makes no difference. One of my closest friends, an Irish guy from graduate school, married an Italian girl, and honestly, they have one of the most perfect relationships I've ever seen. We're talking about relative risks here. Of course, he joined HER world much more than she did his, partly perhaps because he was an only child, and son of only children.

    Also, if you're implying that there might be a time in Europe where there would be no actual "Italians", or Spaniards, or Germans or Irish, i.e. just an intermarried mass, it might be inevitable, but no, Ipersonally wouldn't want that. To be clear, it's nothing to do with superiority or inferiority. I love my people, our history, our accomplishments, and I even find some of our many faults acceptable or even in some cases endearing. So, no, I don't want them to disappear.

    Even in countries like the U.S., there is less intermarriage than Europeans sometimes imagine, at least across "racial" lines. I've posted recent data on other threads showing that 90% of "white" Americans marry white Americans. It's just the way it is, and I think it will stay that way for a long time, regardless of what "Hollywood" would prefer.

    I see it happening in my own community, which is white and Christian, and has been for decades. In recent years a lot of Chinese people are moving in, and while no one is broadcasting it, people are moving further out on the island. It's not that they're not considered highly intelligent, hardworking, law abiding, all those things, but the "culture" is very different. It happened in parts of Queens, a borough of New York City. Whole areas like Flushing used to be Jewish, Italian, Irish. It is now completely, and I mean completely East Asian. I don't think a young European descent family would feel comfortable buying a house there nowadays. These old established communities are very sports oriented, church oriented, civic association oriented, summer life revolving around tennis and swimming and golf at country clubs or local community pool and tennis clubs. The School Association is very important, with parents being very involved in being class mothers, all that stuff. That's just not part of the culture of a lot of these very nice East Asian people, so there are some stresses.

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