davef
Princess
Ashkenazi only score about 26 percent ashkenazi on that test. To me that's very odd, especially since most ashkenazi are pretty much the same genetically.
German communities in Eastern Europe
- Thread starter Tomenable
- Start date
Tomenable
Elite member
- Messages
- 5,419
- Reaction score
- 1,337
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Poland
- Ethnic group
- Polish
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1b-L617
- mtDNA haplogroup
- W6a
Davidski kind of admits that this test is not perfect (but is there any better test for Ashkenazi ancestry?).
He wrote:
"Update 19/03/2018: It's come to my attention that many people are still using the Jtest and taking the results very seriously. Indeed, perhaps too seriously.
Also, some users are doing weird stuff with the Jtest output in an attempt to estimate their supposedly "true" Ashkenazi ancestry proportions, like multiplying their Ashkenazi coefficient by three, because Ashkenazi Jews "only" score around 30% Ashkenazi in this test. Ouch! Please don't do that!
Let me reiterate that this test was only supposed to be a fun experiment. It was never meant to be the definitive online Ashkenazi ancestry test. And even as fun experiments with ADMIXTURE go, it's now horribly outdated, and probably useless for anyone with less than 15-20% Ashkenazi ancestry."
==========
Here is my father's result in JTest (despite 4% AJ admixture, Oracle gives none):
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 SOUTH_BALTIC 27.65
2 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 19.72
3 EAST_EURO 17.99
4 ATLANTIC 15.06
5 WEST_MED 7.23
6 EAST_MED 5.71
7 ASHKENAZI 4.45
8 WEST_ASIAN 1.93
9 EAST_AFRICAN 0.25
Oracle:
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 51.7% AT + 48.3% LIT @ 2.35
2 59.1% Belorussian + 40.9% AT @ 2.53
3 89.8% PL + 10.2% Tuscan @ 2.59
4 76.8% PL + 23.2% AT @ 2.61
5 88.9% PL + 11.1% PT @ 2.71
6 88.7% PL + 11.3% North_Italian @ 2.75
7 87.4% PL + 12.6% FR @ 2.87
8 89.8% PL + 10.2% ES @ 2.93
9 51.5% Northwest_Russian + 48.5% AT @ 2.94
(...)
14 82.4% PL + 17.6% Serbian @ 3.1
15 92.2% PL + 7.8% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 3.12
16 79.7% Belorussian + 20.3% Tuscan @ 3.13
17 79.5% UA + 20.5% NL @ 3.14
18 84.7% PL + 15.3% West_&_Central_German @ 3.17
19 77.3% Belorussian + 22.7% North_Italian @ 3.17
20 71.5% LIT + 28.5% Tuscan @ 3.21
4-Ancestors:
Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% AT +50% LIT @ 2.721473
Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% AT +25% Belorussian +25% LIT @ 2.673144
Using 4 populations approximation:
1 AT + AT + Belorussian + LIT @ 2.673144
2 AT + AT + LIT + LIT @ 2.721473
3 AT + AT + LIT + Northwest_Russian @ 2.760451
4 Belorussian + EE + LIT + Tuscan @ 2.767850
5 EE + EE + LIT + Tuscan @ 2.791048
6 AT + Belorussian + HU + LIT @ 2.823594
7 AT + LIT + LIT + Serbian @ 2.837335
8 EE + LIT + LIT + Tuscan @ 2.838456
9 AT + PL + PL + UA @ 2.924006
10 LIT + LIT + South_Finnish + Tuscan @ 2.928062
11 DK + LIT + LIT + RO @ 2.970933
12 LIT + LIT + RO + West_&_Central_German @ 2.976469
13 AT + PL + PL + PL @ 2.978255
14 EE + LIT + Northwest_Russian + Tuscan @ 2.991933
15 LIT + LIT + Serbian + West_&_Central_German @ 3.034988
16 AT + Belorussian + PL + PL @ 3.051656
17 LIT + LIT + NL + RO @ 3.059873
18 AT + HU + LIT + PL @ 3.074710
19 AT + PL + UA + UA @ 3.079765
20 EE + LIT + PL + Tuscan @ 3.099466
He wrote:
"Update 19/03/2018: It's come to my attention that many people are still using the Jtest and taking the results very seriously. Indeed, perhaps too seriously.
Also, some users are doing weird stuff with the Jtest output in an attempt to estimate their supposedly "true" Ashkenazi ancestry proportions, like multiplying their Ashkenazi coefficient by three, because Ashkenazi Jews "only" score around 30% Ashkenazi in this test. Ouch! Please don't do that!
Let me reiterate that this test was only supposed to be a fun experiment. It was never meant to be the definitive online Ashkenazi ancestry test. And even as fun experiments with ADMIXTURE go, it's now horribly outdated, and probably useless for anyone with less than 15-20% Ashkenazi ancestry."
==========
Here is my father's result in JTest (despite 4% AJ admixture, Oracle gives none):
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 SOUTH_BALTIC 27.65
2 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 19.72
3 EAST_EURO 17.99
4 ATLANTIC 15.06
5 WEST_MED 7.23
6 EAST_MED 5.71
7 ASHKENAZI 4.45
8 WEST_ASIAN 1.93
9 EAST_AFRICAN 0.25
Oracle:
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 51.7% AT + 48.3% LIT @ 2.35
2 59.1% Belorussian + 40.9% AT @ 2.53
3 89.8% PL + 10.2% Tuscan @ 2.59
4 76.8% PL + 23.2% AT @ 2.61
5 88.9% PL + 11.1% PT @ 2.71
6 88.7% PL + 11.3% North_Italian @ 2.75
7 87.4% PL + 12.6% FR @ 2.87
8 89.8% PL + 10.2% ES @ 2.93
9 51.5% Northwest_Russian + 48.5% AT @ 2.94
(...)
14 82.4% PL + 17.6% Serbian @ 3.1
15 92.2% PL + 7.8% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 3.12
16 79.7% Belorussian + 20.3% Tuscan @ 3.13
17 79.5% UA + 20.5% NL @ 3.14
18 84.7% PL + 15.3% West_&_Central_German @ 3.17
19 77.3% Belorussian + 22.7% North_Italian @ 3.17
20 71.5% LIT + 28.5% Tuscan @ 3.21
4-Ancestors:
Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% AT +50% LIT @ 2.721473
Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% AT +25% Belorussian +25% LIT @ 2.673144
Using 4 populations approximation:
1 AT + AT + Belorussian + LIT @ 2.673144
2 AT + AT + LIT + LIT @ 2.721473
3 AT + AT + LIT + Northwest_Russian @ 2.760451
4 Belorussian + EE + LIT + Tuscan @ 2.767850
5 EE + EE + LIT + Tuscan @ 2.791048
6 AT + Belorussian + HU + LIT @ 2.823594
7 AT + LIT + LIT + Serbian @ 2.837335
8 EE + LIT + LIT + Tuscan @ 2.838456
9 AT + PL + PL + UA @ 2.924006
10 LIT + LIT + South_Finnish + Tuscan @ 2.928062
11 DK + LIT + LIT + RO @ 2.970933
12 LIT + LIT + RO + West_&_Central_German @ 2.976469
13 AT + PL + PL + PL @ 2.978255
14 EE + LIT + Northwest_Russian + Tuscan @ 2.991933
15 LIT + LIT + Serbian + West_&_Central_German @ 3.034988
16 AT + Belorussian + PL + PL @ 3.051656
17 LIT + LIT + NL + RO @ 3.059873
18 AT + HU + LIT + PL @ 3.074710
19 AT + PL + UA + UA @ 3.079765
20 EE + LIT + PL + Tuscan @ 3.099466
Tomenable
Elite member
- Messages
- 5,419
- Reaction score
- 1,337
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Poland
- Ethnic group
- Polish
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1b-L617
- mtDNA haplogroup
- W6a
Another problem is Sephardic.
Full Sephardic Jews only score ca. 7% Ashkenazi in JTest (not even close to 26%).
Contrary to stereotypes, a lot of Jews in Northern Europe were actually Sephardic.
Recently I learned, that German Jews can be not only Ashkenazi but also Sephardic:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1682349/pdf/ajhg00053-0238a.pdf
"Sephardic Jews in Germany
In the 1930s when German Jews were trying to obtain
immigration visas to other countries to escape Nazi
persecution, they were told at Spanish consulates in
Germany that, if they could prove they were descended
from Iberian Jews who had been expelled from Spain or
Spanish Portugal after 1492, then they were very welcome
to return to the land of their forebears. Even as
late as the 20th century, many German Jews were aware
that one or more of their ancestors had come from the
Iberian Peninsula; for example, the head of the Ullstein
publishing house, Leopold Ullstein, the banker Max
Warburg, the shipping magnate Albert Ballin, as well as
the great German poet Heinrich Heine were able to
trace their ancestry back to one or more Jews born in
Seville, Lisbon, Porto, Toledo, and elsewhere (Kruse
and Engelmann 1992). There were about 300,000 Jews
in Spain and Portugal in 1490 (Baron 1967) who had to
either emigrate or become Christians; the majority emigrated
and settled, at least temporarily, in Muslim
countries. In 1490 there were about 80,000 Jews in the
Holy Roman Empire, i.e., Germany, Austria, the Low
Countries, and Switzerland. When Protestantism became
victorious in the north of the Holy Roman Empire,
many Sephardic Jews left the Muslim countries, as
well as France and Italy (especially Venice), for the
north, at the invitation of the Protestant rulers there.
Since they had knowledge of the Arabic number system,
the most advanced Arabic medical practices, and,
usually, more than three or four languages, they were
very welcome as physicians, jurists, bankers, and tradesmen.
Even if only 10% of the original Iberian Jews
went to Germany (many via Amsterdam, Venice, or
Antwerp), they constituted in 1648 about 30% of the
Jewish population. Since their standard of living and
their practice of most medical advances were much superior
to those of the Ashkenazi Jews, their percentage
in the German Jewry must have increased until the German
Jewry were emancipated circa 1848.
A survey conducted recently by myself among
readers of the German-Jewish New York weekly AUFBAU
revealed that a substantial number of its readers
knew that they were descendants of Iberian Jews who
had settled in diverse regions of Germany under Protestant
control. Thus it seems advisable that, in genetic
studies on gene geography, studies comparing Sephardic
with Ashkenazi Jews should not include German
Jews among the latter."
Full Sephardic Jews only score ca. 7% Ashkenazi in JTest (not even close to 26%).
Contrary to stereotypes, a lot of Jews in Northern Europe were actually Sephardic.
Recently I learned, that German Jews can be not only Ashkenazi but also Sephardic:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1682349/pdf/ajhg00053-0238a.pdf
"Sephardic Jews in Germany
In the 1930s when German Jews were trying to obtain
immigration visas to other countries to escape Nazi
persecution, they were told at Spanish consulates in
Germany that, if they could prove they were descended
from Iberian Jews who had been expelled from Spain or
Spanish Portugal after 1492, then they were very welcome
to return to the land of their forebears. Even as
late as the 20th century, many German Jews were aware
that one or more of their ancestors had come from the
Iberian Peninsula; for example, the head of the Ullstein
publishing house, Leopold Ullstein, the banker Max
Warburg, the shipping magnate Albert Ballin, as well as
the great German poet Heinrich Heine were able to
trace their ancestry back to one or more Jews born in
Seville, Lisbon, Porto, Toledo, and elsewhere (Kruse
and Engelmann 1992). There were about 300,000 Jews
in Spain and Portugal in 1490 (Baron 1967) who had to
either emigrate or become Christians; the majority emigrated
and settled, at least temporarily, in Muslim
countries. In 1490 there were about 80,000 Jews in the
Holy Roman Empire, i.e., Germany, Austria, the Low
Countries, and Switzerland. When Protestantism became
victorious in the north of the Holy Roman Empire,
many Sephardic Jews left the Muslim countries, as
well as France and Italy (especially Venice), for the
north, at the invitation of the Protestant rulers there.
Since they had knowledge of the Arabic number system,
the most advanced Arabic medical practices, and,
usually, more than three or four languages, they were
very welcome as physicians, jurists, bankers, and tradesmen.
Even if only 10% of the original Iberian Jews
went to Germany (many via Amsterdam, Venice, or
Antwerp), they constituted in 1648 about 30% of the
Jewish population. Since their standard of living and
their practice of most medical advances were much superior
to those of the Ashkenazi Jews, their percentage
in the German Jewry must have increased until the German
Jewry were emancipated circa 1848.
A survey conducted recently by myself among
readers of the German-Jewish New York weekly AUFBAU
revealed that a substantial number of its readers
knew that they were descendants of Iberian Jews who
had settled in diverse regions of Germany under Protestant
control. Thus it seems advisable that, in genetic
studies on gene geography, studies comparing Sephardic
with Ashkenazi Jews should not include German
Jews among the latter."
StevenEvans
Regular Member
- Messages
- 29
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 0
CrazyDonkey
Regular Member
- Messages
- 339
- Reaction score
- 64
- Points
- 28
- Location
- Seattle, Washington (Ballard)
- Ethnic group
- Irish/Scottish/British/Scandi/C Euro
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- I2a-Y31616>FT435332
- mtDNA haplogroup
- U2e1d
Who we "wed" and who we "bed" are often not one and the same. A great deal of admixture happened on the sly. More than just a few southern gentlemen, although zealously protective of their filial line, developed a taste for "brown sugar". No "color line" is impervious to gene flow, although the flow is more likely to be in one direction than the other.
mihaitzateo
Regular Member
- Messages
- 943
- Reaction score
- 98
- Points
- 0
- Location
- Bucharest
- Ethnic group
- Romanian
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- proly R1B
Mr Tormenable, German communities from Eastern Europe (including those from Romania) were not only East Germans.
In Romania, before 1945, we had lots of German, which were mostly Saxons or in German Siebenbürger Sachsen.
Highly doubt these Sachsen people were from Eastern Germany.
Simple proof that Transylvania Saxons are actually related to old Saxons from Germany, so quite close to Dutch and British people:
https://www.transylvaniansaxon.com/dna-the-story-of-discovery/
Their paternal lines:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/german-origin-of-transylvanian-saxons.html
Tomenable
Elite member
- Messages
- 5,419
- Reaction score
- 1,337
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Poland
- Ethnic group
- Polish
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1b-L617
- mtDNA haplogroup
- W6a
When it comes to Germans from Romania and Hungary I have only seen some Danube Swabian results, but not Transylvanian Saxon so far. Anyway you need a bigger sample size than 1 (or actually 1/2 considering that person claims to be only 50% of this ancestry) before drawing conclusions.
mihaitzateo
Regular Member
- Messages
- 943
- Reaction score
- 98
- Points
- 0
- Location
- Bucharest
- Ethnic group
- Romanian
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- proly R1B
Swabs were few in Romania, and those, as their names tell, were from Bavaria.
Saxons, as their name tells, were from NW Germany.
Were, because a lot of them left Romania during Bolshevik times.
We had like 745.000 Germans, mostly Saxons ,in Romania, before 1945.
A lot of Saxons were brought as colonists in Muntenia.
Saxons, as their name tells, were from NW Germany.
Were, because a lot of them left Romania during Bolshevik times.
We had like 745.000 Germans, mostly Saxons ,in Romania, before 1945.
A lot of Saxons were brought as colonists in Muntenia.
5
50cal
Guest
I don't know an awful lot about German communities in Eastern Europe, but I will share a couple of things regarding the Baltendeutsche.
Essentially, Latvia and Estonia was ruled by a German nobility for almost 600 years in a row. Even though technically a part of some other entity for extended periods of time (be it the Swedish or Russian empire), the German rule was continuous and uninterrupted up until the period of national awakening in the 19th century and more stringent Russian demands in the late 19th century.
Due to the Swedish approach to schooling, most ethnic Latvians and Estonians were literate already by mid-17th century despite having almost no rights whatsoever. This however led to a lot of lowly serfs actively looking for a place in cities and towns. As Latvians were not allowed to live or work there, they took up German names and switched to German in daily use. In effect, there was quite a lot of 'upwards mobility' through Germanization.
There was quite a lot of interbreeding, in other words, despite it being a closed community. That was also the case in the interbellum period when the Germans were just a natural part of the Latvian society, just like the Swedes in Finland are right now.
Curiously enough, this led to Baltic Germans not being deemed 'Aryan' automatically and they had to undergo additional checks during the Nazi rule. The irony of it all being that one of the chief Nazi racial ideologues - Alfred Rosenberg - was a Baltic German himself, and he had an ethnic Latvian grandfather to top it all off.
Even though they were deported from Latvia and Estonia, several thousand still remain here. But they mostly speak Latvian or Estonian.
I'm not sure if their contribution to the Latvian genome is very significant, though. A slightly increased R1b rate, maybe.
Essentially, Latvia and Estonia was ruled by a German nobility for almost 600 years in a row. Even though technically a part of some other entity for extended periods of time (be it the Swedish or Russian empire), the German rule was continuous and uninterrupted up until the period of national awakening in the 19th century and more stringent Russian demands in the late 19th century.
Due to the Swedish approach to schooling, most ethnic Latvians and Estonians were literate already by mid-17th century despite having almost no rights whatsoever. This however led to a lot of lowly serfs actively looking for a place in cities and towns. As Latvians were not allowed to live or work there, they took up German names and switched to German in daily use. In effect, there was quite a lot of 'upwards mobility' through Germanization.
There was quite a lot of interbreeding, in other words, despite it being a closed community. That was also the case in the interbellum period when the Germans were just a natural part of the Latvian society, just like the Swedes in Finland are right now.
Curiously enough, this led to Baltic Germans not being deemed 'Aryan' automatically and they had to undergo additional checks during the Nazi rule. The irony of it all being that one of the chief Nazi racial ideologues - Alfred Rosenberg - was a Baltic German himself, and he had an ethnic Latvian grandfather to top it all off.
Even though they were deported from Latvia and Estonia, several thousand still remain here. But they mostly speak Latvian or Estonian.
I'm not sure if their contribution to the Latvian genome is very significant, though. A slightly increased R1b rate, maybe.
Tomenable
Elite member
- Messages
- 5,419
- Reaction score
- 1,337
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Poland
- Ethnic group
- Polish
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1b-L617
- mtDNA haplogroup
- W6a
A study about historical marriage patterns in an area which was a Polish-German ethnic borderland and also mixed Catholic-Lutheran:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...century_and_the_beginning_of_the_20th_century
Abstract:
The aim of this study is to characterize marriage patterns in a rural parish of Trzebosz in the borderland between Greater Poland (Wielkopolska) and Silesia in the years 1855?1913. A total of 343 data on marriages were gathered from the parish registers. The percentage of Lutheran?Catholic marriages was calculated. The distribution of age at marriage by martial status was assessed. The intensity of endogamy and exogamy was calculated as well as the coefficients of exogamy and biological polygamy. The annual rhythm of marriages was determined. In Trzebosz mixed marriages accounted for 3.94% in 1855?1899 and 14% in 1900?1913. The average age of brides and grooms was 25.36 and 26.22 years, while of widows and widowers they were 37.26 and 42.35 years, respectively. The average age of brides and grooms declined over time. In 1855?1899 the levels of endogamy and exogamy outside the parish were 19% and 81%, respectively. In 1900?1913 exogamy outside the parish decreased to 62%, while endogamy increased to 37%. The average mating distances for all marriages and exogamous ones were 24 and 42 km, respectively, in 1855?1899, while for 1900?1913 the respective figures were 7.4 and 8.7 km. The coefficient of exogamy declined from 0.78 in 1855?1899 to 0.67 in 1900?1913, while the coefficient of biological polygamy grew from 1.19 to 1.30 between those periods. The religious factor, apart from an economic strategy, shaped the annual rhythm of marriage. The outflow of the parishioners from Trzebosz in the early 20th century led to its ageing.
=====
Trzebosz is located near Rawicz, at the border between Wielkopolska and Lower Silesia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trzebosz
This thread has been viewed 21138 times.