Was Afontova Gora an ancestor of Afanasievo/yamna, or not?

[leechunsonnn]

seems like Afontova Gora has components of Malta with more WHG women. And afanasievo/yamna compose of AG with more WHG women, being related to especially R1a-93 people.
However, Okunevo has Malta gene with more siberian/East Asian, going forward to karasuk and iron age alati(schyian)
Thank
Cristiano

 

[holderlin]

Everyone's ignoring you because this has unfortunately become a tired subject on here.

Short answers is yes. Afonta/Baltic HGs->EHG->Bronze Age Steppe (Yamnaya)

Although many will argue about, 1) weather or not Yamnaya represents the PIE homeland, 2) where the actual Bronze Age steppe Y-HG subclades came from, and 3) the demic and cultural influence of the Caucuses on Yamnaya, and what this has to do with the question of the PIE homeland.

Everyone is a fanboy of some kind and they won't admit it. So whenever a paper comes out most of the arguments consist of people spinning the data for their "PIE team" while trying to appear like they are being unbiased. It's usually very obvious though.

There's 2 main factions:

PIE in the Caucuses in like 6000BC
PIE on the steppe in 4000-3000BC

There's other fringe factions like PIE in West Europe or Iran, but they're a minority and can usually be lumped into "Not-Steppe"

So really you have:

PIE on the steppe
PIE not on the steppe

The political underpinnings are essentially that white supremacists are all steppe proponents because they want the language to be firmly rooted in white Caucasian phenotypes, and everyone against the steppe seems to see themselves as fighting against this, roughly speaking. Of course not all steppe proponents are white supremacists so we're in an unfortunate situation where your interpretation of data can be associated with a hate group.

Welcome and Enjoy

 

[Angela]

@leechunsonnn,
You've learned such a valuable lesson so early. Holderlin is the only member here who is objective and has pure motives, and is completely honest.

How could you doubt it? He told you so himself.

 

[holderlin]

@leechunsonnn,
You've learned such a valuable lesson so early. Holderlin is the only member here who is objective and has pure motives, and is completely honest.

How could you doubt it? He told you so himself.

I decided to actually take the time to help a new poster out and this is what I get. I didn't say anything about anyone.

 

[Angela]

I decided to actually take the time to help a new poster out and this is what I get. I didn't say anything about anyone.

Look, I don't want this to turn into some "thing", but this is what you said:

"Everyone is a fanboy of some kind and they won't admit it. So whenever a paper comes out most of the arguments consist of people spinning the data for their "PIE team" while trying to appear like they are being unbiased. It's usually very obvious though."

The clear impression you were trying to give is that no one is objective except...YOU.

You even upvoted my post where I came to the conclusion that was what you were trying to say, so don't act all innocent now.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

"Of course not all steppe proponents are white supremacists so we're in an unfortunate situation where your interpretation of data can be associated with a hate group."

Much more accurate, it seems to me, would be to say that "most steppe proponents are not white supremacists".

 

[holderlin]

Look, I don't want this to turn into some "thing", but this is what you said:

"Everyone is a fanboy of some kind and they won't admit it. So whenever a paper comes out most of the arguments consist of people spinning the data for their "PIE team" while trying to appear like they are being unbiased. It's usually very obvious though."

The clear impression you were trying to give is that no one is objective except...YOU.

"Everyone....

You even upvoted my post where I came to the conclusion that was what you were trying to say, so don't act all innocent now.

LOL I upvoted because you were the only person here. Do you think I take this so seriously that I'm only going to upvote and downvote according to a strict code of merit? I was just saying, "Oh hey what's up, I appreciate the post, yay..."

 

[holderlin]

"Of course not all steppe proponents are white supremacists so we're in an unfortunate situation where your interpretation of data can be associated with a hate group."

Much more accurate, it seems to me, would be to say that "most steppe proponents are not white supremacists".

Yes of course. My point was that steppe proponents are viewed with suspicion that they may be white supremacists, so there's this faux moral undercurrent to all of these arguments.

 

[ThirdTerm]

Afontova Gora 2 showed genetic affinity with the Karitiana people in Brazil and Fu et al. (2016) found that Afontova Gora 2 belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup Q1a1. MA-1 is ancestral to both European hunter-gatherers and Native Americans and 14 to 38% of Native American ancestry may originate through gene flow from MA-1 (Raghavan et al. 2014). Afontova Gora 2 plausibly belongs to the Native American branch of the MA-1 lineage, making it an unlikely ancestor of the Yamnaya steppe herders. The later Yamnaya steppe herders of ∼3,000 BC plot between the EHG and the present-day Near East/Caucasus and the Yamnaya have ancestry from populations related to the Caucasus and South Asia that is largely absent in Late Neolithic or Bronze Age individuals (Haak et al. 2015).

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Yes of course. My point was that steppe proponents are viewed with suspicion that they may be white supremacists, so there's this faux moral undercurrent to all of these arguments.

Well, the comment ("Of course not all steppe proponents are white supremacists...") could be read as not excluding that most are. I didn't think that was your intention, so didn't quote you directly.

Are V. Gordon Childe, Stuart Piggott, J. P. Mallory, or David W. Anthony "white supremacists"? Anybody who is, at least in this day and age, can't be a reputable scholar or scientist.

 

[holderlin]

Afontova Gora 2 showed genetic affinity with the Karitiana people in Brazil and Fu et al. (2016) found that Afontova Gora 2 belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup Q1a1. MA-1 is ancestral to both European hunter-gatherers and Native Americans and 14 to 38% of Native American ancestry may originate through gene flow from MA-1 (Raghavan et al. 2014). Afontova Gora 2 plausibly belongs to the Native American branch of the MA-1 lineage, making it an unlikely ancestor of the Yamnaya steppe herders. The later Yamnaya steppe herders of ∼3,000 BC plot between the EHG and the present-day Near East/Caucasus and the Yamnaya have ancestry from populations related to the Caucasus and South Asia that is largely absent in in Late Neolithic or Bronze Age individuals (Haak et al. 2015).

It's highly highly likely, if not certain, that the Afontova Gora samples are ancestral to EHG. This is far more certain than MA-1 ancestry, based not only on latter steppe samples, but also that Villabruna was related to Afontova Gora, and not to MA-1. So it looks like Villabruna ancestors admixed with a cousin of MA-1 to form Afontova Gora populations, which admixed further with WHG types to form EHG.

And we've found Y-HG Q1a in Eneolithic steppe samples, which are undoubtedly ancestral to Yamnaya, so this Q1a being present in Afontova Gora 2 does not by any means support the notion that the AG sample's weren't ancestral to EHG.

 

[holderlin]

Well, the comment ("Of course not all steppe proponents are white supremacists...") could be read as not excluding that most are. I didn't think that was your intention, so didn't quote you directly.

Are V. Gordon Childe, Stuart Piggott, J. P. Mallory, or David W. Anthony "white supremacists"? Anybody who is, at least in this day and age, can't be a reputable scholar or scientist.

Well they're white men, so they're already on trial these days, combine that with steppe PIE support, and yes, I guarantee some people view them with suspicion in this regard. "Oh they're just European men trying to keep their language well North of the Middle East....." etc..............

 

[holderlin]

OK I'm gonna go ahead and not post in this thread anymore. My intention was not to provoke this sort of thing, only to give the new poster some background on the question he was asking.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Well they're white men, so they're already on trial these days, combine that with steppe PIE support, and yes, I guarantee some people view them with suspicion in this regard. "Oh they're just European men trying to keep their language well North of the Middle East....." etc..............

I was going to include Marija Gimbutas, but couldn't remember how to spell her name.

People can insinuate whatever they want - it doesn't mean it has any basis in fact.

 

[markod]

I was going to include Marija Gimbutas, but couldn't remember how to spell her name.

People can insinuate whatever they want - it doesn't mean it has any basis in fact.

No one insinuated anything - it's just you two talking about imagined agendas.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

No one insinuated anything - it's just you two talking about imagined agendas.

What imagined agenda?

I merely criticized a statement that, if taken at face value, could be taken as a backhanded smear. As far as I know, it was unintentional or even sarcastically facetious.

 

[Jack Johnson]

It's highly highly likely, if not certain, that the Afontova Gora samples are ancestral to EHG. This is far more certain than MA-1 ancestry, based not only on latter steppe samples, but also that Villabruna was related to Afontova Gora, and not to MA-1. So it looks like Villabruna ancestors admixed with a cousin of MA-1 to form Afontova Gora populations, which admixed further with WHG types to form EHG.
And we've found Y-HG Q1a in Eneolithic steppe samples, which are undoubtedly ancestral to Yamnaya, so this Q1a being present in Afontova Gora 2 does not by any means support the notion that the AG sample's weren't ancestral to EHG.

I thought that the Q1a1 in Afontova Gora was considered unreliable due to contamination of the sample. So do we even know if he actually is Q1a1? The oldest officially confirmed Q1a sample in Europe is a Q1a2 Mesolithic sample from what is modern day Latvia. Those specimens also had R1b and I2a, and they were something like 20-30% EHG if I’m not mistaken, with the rest being WHG. Then there is the Q1a2 Khvalynsk sample in Eneolithic Samara, Russia. R1a, R1b, and Q1a were all found together, which leads me to believe that along with I2a, these y lineages made up the foundation of the proto-Indo Europeans on the Pontic-Caspian Steppe and Steppe forest zone. Also of interest is the Q1a found in the Maykop steppe samples. These men had a Botai like component or something WSHG related not found in Yamnaya, though I’m not sure what it is exactly. Maybe Q was found heavily in Hunter Gatherer populations that were close to pure ANE, I am an amature so I just don’t know, would like to see more research done on it though.