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Thread: Paleolithic DNA from the Caucasus

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    For "basal" to remain basal over the centuries, it had to be severely isolated.
    Dzudzuana were no longer in the Caucasus by the time of Kotias and Satstrublia (CHG). So they had moved.
    Anatolian pre-farming men were Dzuduana + Basal. But no basal west of them.
    So Basal must have been on the way, in between the Caucasus and western Anatolia.
    The Indus Valley hardly fits the bill...
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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Read the supplement when you're not drunk.
    Oooo sassy

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I think some of the usual suspects are shell shocked. "I can't find anything wrong with the analyses, but it can't be right." :)

    My overriding impression, and I think what any honest layperson would see, is that all of the barriers we put up between most of the different West Eurasian groups is really just nonsense. Peel back enough layers and you'll see the common core.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    We haven't discussed it much but I'm quite surprised by the R1a carrying half Han Chinese like, half Malta like Botai Neolithic.

    Once again the "R" lineages are associated with ANE originally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    I think the problem with this is the lack of anything resembling BE in Vestonice. Of course the Dzudzuana HGs would be very closely related to that "undiscovered" HG population.
    This one without the Basal, that is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I've been suggesting Mesopotamia, maybe originally from a Persian Gulf refugium for quite a while, but Bicicleur has always been for somewhere around India.

    What about this UHG which might have gone into both Dzudzuana and Villabruna (and Bichon, right?)? IJ is found in Iran, right?
    Yes. And mtDNA U6 in Natufians. And do note we have *two* basal mtDNA R*'s in the oldest Europeans yet. One in Fumane and one in Les Colles (Only read an abstract of a talk about that, BTW). Wasn't R0 common in Arabia?

    EDIT: Les Cottés cave, not Les Colles. It's near Poitier.
    Last edited by epoch; 24-09-18 at 20:20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    We haven't discussed it much but I'm quite surprised by the R1a carrying half Han Chinese like, half Malta like Botai Neolithic.
    Once again the "R" lineages are associated with ANE originally.
    wasn't this R1b-L389xP297 ?
    a very old clade, formed 17.1 ka
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    For "basal" to remain basal over the centuries, it had to be severely isolated.
    Dzudzuana were no longer in the Caucasus by the time of Kotias and Satstrublia (CHG). So they had moved.
    Anatolian pre-farming men were Dzuduana + Basal. But no basal west of them.
    So Basal must have been on the way, in between the Caucasus and western Anatolia.
    The Indus Valley hardly fits the bill...
    there is another admixture graph, fig 2.13

    CHG is modelled as a 93 % mixture of 70 % Dzudzuana + 30 % Tianyuan-like with 7 % Taforalt

    CHG = 0.93 * (0.7 Dzu + 0.3 Tian) + 0.07 Taforalt

    So first another 30 % Tianyuan was added and then another 7 % Taforalt

    on the same graph :

    Iran Neo = 0.81 (0.65 Dzudzuana + 0.35 Tianyuan) + 0.19 Basal Eurasian

    Instead of extra Tarofalt, Iran Neo has extra Basal Eurasian

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    This one without the Basal, that is.



    Yes. And mtDNA U6 in Natufians. And do note we have *two* basal mtDNA R*'s in the oldest Europeans yet. One in Fumane and one in Les Colles (Only read an abstract of a talk about that, BTW). Wasn't R0 common in Arabia?
    The mtDNA U6 should ring a bell.
    It points to a Eurasian introduction.
    Basal Eurasian was not African in origin.

    Think where it first appeared, in Transcaucasia, mixing with Villabruna-like.
    And it is this mixture which spread into northern Africa, not the pure BE.

    Another shot of pure BE got mixed into Iran Neo. (see my post n° 82)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I've been suggesting Mesopotamia, maybe originally from a Persian Gulf refugium for quite a while, but Bicicleur has always been for somewhere around India.

    What about this UHG which might have gone into both Dzudzuana and Villabruna (and Bichon, right?)? IJ is found in Iran, right?
    Angela, 2 things I think about Mesopotamia/Persian Gulf :

    1/ it's to close, BE is very old yet 26 ka the only single form of BE in the middle east is the Dzudzuana mixture
    the 2nd shot of BE arrived only after LGM, in Iran Neo
    2/ it's very close to where Neanderthals were, yet no admixture with Neanderthals

    and another thing is I believe the FGHIJK split happened near the Indus delta

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    there is another admixture graph, fig 2.13

    CHG is modelled as a 93 % mixture of 70 % Dzudzuana + 30 % Tianyuan-like with 7 % Taforalt

    CHG = 0.93 * (0.7 Dzu + 0.3 Tian) + 0.07 Taforalt

    So first another 30 % Tianyuan was added and then another 7 % Taforalt

    on the same graph :

    Iran Neo = 0.81 (0.65 Dzudzuana + 0.35 Tianyuan) + 0.19 Basal Eurasian

    Instead of extra Tarofalt, Iran Neo has extra Basal Eurasian


    Do take in account that they model ANE as 2/3 K14-ish stuff and 1/3 Tianyuan-ish stuff. So (Dzu + Tian), or parts of it, may serve as proxy for ANE.
    Last edited by bicicleur; 24-09-18 at 11:04.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Yes, the Villabruna-like influence (here called 'Common Eurasian') begins with Vestonice. Completely agree with everything you said. I'd tentatively add G to the Y-DNA haplogroups that could have spread with the Common Eurasian HGs, although as a minor lineage that only rises in numbers with the Neolithic.
    Yes its likely that the Common Eurasian begin even maybe with y-dna F. Vestonice have an F and GHIJK ( wich maybe is because of low snps ). I'm pretty sure R1b have nothing to do with Villabruna-Dzudzuana originally, they just replace the previous dominant male lineage but they kept the ancestral dna because of the lack of input of their original group. Europe makes me think more and more to a Dead End ( geographically speaking ), to survive they needed input coming from the southeast and the northeast, or they would have had serious diminution of their demographics like Neanderthals.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I think about BE and CE, the context can be similar to Sungir/Kostenki and Goyet. The problem with like Goyet, is that it could came from an even previous and unrelated to Kostenki/Sungir and Vestonice, population that got an input from the " Gravettians ". For exemple, Goyet is y-dna C1 and mtdna M. I dont think mtdna M or even the few R we have in paleolithic europe, have relation with the original population that created Sungir/Kostenki, so we might even look for a more ancestral population that we dont have any real proxy yet. The same with BE, they could have been in the middle-east, neighbor of CE, but we dont have any proxy yet. To found an ancestral proxy for BE in Mesopotamia is very very unlickely geographically speaking. If you want to found very old specimens in the middle-east, you need to search in the caves of some mountains ranges... Zagros, Taurus, Caucasus, Galilée, Sarawat, Sinai... here you can found what you search.

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    Btw is this study the link that IronHorse was searching for why Arabians had some relationship with WHG?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    My guess for the BE refugium is the Ur-Schatt valley. Seems to have all the features you'd expect, and the location.

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Angela, 2 things I think about Mesopotamia/Persian Gulf :

    2/ it's very close to where Neanderthals were, yet no admixture with Neanderthals
    We don't seem to have admixed with Neanderthals we know we overlapped with though. Hajdinjak, Fu et al published "Reconstructing the genetic history of the Neanderthals" in march 2018, and it contained something that astonished me, but does not seem to have generated the discussion I though it would. The gene flow, or at least most of it, into early modern humans appear to have originated from one Neanderthal population. Which we have not so far identified from DNA. Apparently they diverged from the neanderthals we have DNA from between 90 - 150 kyears ago. So the majority of Neanderthal populations early modern humans encountered or overlapped with did not exchange genes with us.

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    yes, I believe the 40 ka Tianyuan sample was on the eastern extremities of the Tianyuna-like area
    IMO the Tianyuna-like area strectched from Central Asia, where it originated 45 ka, into the Altaï-area and further into Mongolia and northern China

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnarl View Post
    Hajdinjak, Fu et al published "Reconstructing the genetic history of the Neanderthals" in march 2018, and it contained something that astonished me, but does not seem to have generated the discussion I though it would. The gene flow, or at least most of it, into early modern humans appear to have originated from one Neanderthal population. Which we have not so far identified from DNA. Apparently they diverged from the neanderthals we have DNA from between 90 - 150 kyears ago. So the majority of Neanderthal populations early modern humans encountered or overlapped with did not exchange genes with us.
    maybe
    Attachment 10423

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnarl View Post
    My guess for the BE refugium is the Ur-Schatt valley. Seems to have all the features you'd expect, and the location.



    We don't seem to have admixed with Neanderthals we know we overlapped with though. Hajdinjak, Fu et al published "Reconstructing the genetic history of the Neanderthals" in march 2018, and it contained something that astonished me, but does not seem to have generated the discussion I though it would. The gene flow, or at least most of it, into early modern humans appear to have originated from one Neanderthal population. Which we have not so far identified from DNA. Apparently they diverged from the neanderthals we have DNA from between 90 - 150 kyears ago. So the majority of Neanderthal populations early modern humans encountered or overlapped with did not exchange genes with us.
    I've been thinking about that too. I thought I had posted this map, but I guess I forgot.




    @Epoch,
    Yes, lots of mtDna RO in Arabia.

    Wonder about the yDna. Could it be an early form of "E"?

    @Bicicleur,
    Sorry, it was a typo as well as off-topic. :)

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    of course the model is a simplification, the whole reality will never be exposed
    but it's a huge progress compared to the 2-3 year old Laziridis model in which he models all population in functio of just 4 'basic popultaions' (WHG-EHG-Levant Neo-Iran Neo)
    the models is based on 26 ka DNA, so it does not say anything for populations more recent than 10 ka, that would be useless
    it's a pitty that Anatolia Neo is not modelled, he just says that Anatolia Neo is very similar to Dzudzuana

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I've been thinking about that too. I thought I had posted this map, but I guess I forgot.




    @Epoch,
    Yes, lots of mtDna RO in Arabia.

    Wonder about the yDna. Could it be an early form of "E"?

    @Bicicleur,
    Sorry, it was a typo as well as off-topic. :)
    I guess no archeologic evidence there, because covered by thick sediments.

    It has been speculated that the Zagros Neanderthals stayed in the cool mountains in summer, but that they roamed the hot valleys in winter.

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    Botai was R1b-M73, not R1a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    Botai was R1b-M73, not R1a.
    Yes, thanks. I already thanked Bicicleur for correcting my typo.

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    So what of the Aurignacian culture and the chauvet cave paintings ?
    This Villabruna-Dzudzuana man was allready in europe for 20.000 years before the Dzudzuana cave findings ?


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    The attempts to understand a process discovery is one more reason to stay aware ot the changes that seem to be happening faster than I can read much more digest. yet thats why I can't get enough for that I have to thank you for allowing me to learn with bites. I want to understand and will continue to nibble before I'm able to take a bite. Recently I've found more reasons to keep trying to understand and at that trying to develop a process that can add to the conversation.

    The extent to which prehistoric migrations of farmers influenced the genetic pool of western North Africans remains unclear. Archaeological evidence suggests that the Neolithization process may have happened through the adoption of innovations by local Epipaleolithic communities or by demic diffusion from the Eastern Mediterranean shores or Iberia. Here, we present an analysis of individuals’ genome sequences from Early and Late Neolithic sites in Morocco and from Early Neolithic individuals from southern Iberia

    ANATOLIANEPI-PALEOLITHIC PERIOD ASSEMBLAGES:
    Problems,Suggestions, Evaluations and Various Approaches
    Abstract

    There are a number of problems and considerable deficiencies on the chronology, terminology and data
    about the Anatolian Epi-paleolithic period. It has been necessary to offer some suggestions for the above
    mentioned queries. And we hopefully addressed to them with this paper. Some mistakes have been
    determined and new opinions will be offered by us especially on the chronology and terminology with
    the comparisons between the previous and current research in Anatolia.

    It is clear that the new efforts will
    bring to light the question: "between 20.000 B.P. an
    d 10.000 B.P., what was the exact cultural picture of
    Anatolia like, taking the Levant and Europe into consideration?"
    Although the dates of some Anatolian Epi-paleolithic
    assemblages are quite earlier than the European
    Mesolithic assemblages, the Levantine Epi-paleolithic assemblages are approximately contemporary with
    the Anatolian Epi-paleolithic period. Consequently, we
    prefer to use the term "Epi-paleolithic" instead of
    "Mesolithic" for the being mentioned period in Anatolia
    taking the recent data into consideration. On the
    other hand, the intention of this paper is to avoid making the Levantine connections, at least for the
    present, whether it is true or not. However, this is
    only one of the problematic matters to bring into light
    for Anatolia.

    The hunt continues and the search demands more time yet the mysteries continue to unfold and it's one part of my life's quest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by O Neill View Post
    So what of the Aurignacian culture and the chauvet cave paintings ?
    This Villabruna-Dzudzuana man was allready in europe for 20.000 years before the Dzudzuana cave findings ?

    Assuming that GoyetQ116 is representative of the wider Aurignacien horizon those HGs probably went extinct, although their distant relatives from somewhere else would later emerge with the 'Common West Eurasian' cluster and repopulate Europe and the Near East.

    If the models in the paper are correct the relatives of the Gravettien Hunters who painted the Chauvet cave survived - although with significant eastern admixture - in the emerging ANE population. This would mean that present day Siberians and Native Americans carry the largest shares of Gravettien ancestry.

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