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Thread: Paleolithic DNA from the Caucasus

  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    14000-12000 BC:

    (Anthony, HWL, p. 136-7)

    (Ibid, p. 463)

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...ig17_318199054

    Dates would correspond to the formation of the Villabruna cluster. This could have caused the split between WHG and EHG. In addition, the Manych-Kerch Spillway could have blocked passage, north and south, between the Caucasus and the Pontic-Steppes (splitting CHG from WHG?).
    Lazaridis and his colleagues reject an Eastern European origin because they see Villabruna as a unique population which split very early from the Kostenki-Sungir clade. This split predates Goyet116, so we're talking about ~40k BP the latest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    14000-12000 BC:

    (Anthony, HWL, p. 136-7)

    (Ibid, p. 463)

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...ig17_318199054

    Dates would correspond to the formation of the Villabruna cluster. This could have caused the split between WHG and EHG. In addition, the Manych-Kerch Spillway could have blocked passage, north and south, between the Caucasus and the Pontic-Steppes (splitting CHG from WHG?).
    How would this have caused the split between WHG and EHG? EHG were located mainly west of the Urals, so they would've been on the same "side" of the Kvalynian Sea as the WHG. Or do you suggest the EHG were east of the Urals and of the Caucasus and only migrated westward later, replacing the WHG there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Lazaridis and his colleagues reject an Eastern European origin because they see Villabruna as a unique population which split very early from the Kostenki-Sungir clade. This split predates Goyet116, so we're talking about ~40k BP the latest.
    Where do I say Villabruna/WHG has "an Eastern European origin"????

    By ~14kya a third group, the Villabruna cluster, appeared throughout mainland Europe, coinciding with the Bølling-Allerød warming period. Members of this cluster, which has also been called western European hunter-gatherers (WHG), were found across Europe during Late Upper Paleolithic-to-Mesolithic times, and were the main pre-agricultural Europeans prior to the Neolithic ~8kya.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    How would this have caused the split between WHG and EHG? EHG were located mainly west of the Urals, so they would've been on the same "side" of the Kvalynian Sea as the WHG. Or do you suggest the EHG were east of the Urals and of the Caucasus and only migrated westward later, replacing the WHG there?
    It turned what would have been a zone of cultural interpenetration and exchange into a frontier separating radically different ways of life/language families.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    It turned what would have been a zone of cultural interpenetration and exchange into a frontier separating radically different ways of life/language families.
    So you think the EHG appeared east of the Urals and basically in modern Kazakhstan/Siberia/North Central Asia? Because the Khvalynian Sea created a barrier only between the Pontic-Caspian region and Central Asia, so if EHG lived in Eastern Europe they wouldn't be separated from the WHG in the rest of Europe. Also, that Khvalynian Sea basically receded and started to dry up during the Mesolithic after these floods into the Black Sea, so the barrier would've been very weakened even by Early Mesolithic times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    So you think the EHG appeared east of the Urals and basically in modern Kazakhstan/Siberia/North Central Asia? Because the Khvalynian Sea created a barrier only between the Pontic-Caspian region and Central Asia, so if EHG lived in Eastern Europe they wouldn't be separated from the WHG in the rest of Europe. Also, that Khvalynian Sea basically receded and started to dry up during the Mesolithic after these floods into the Black Sea, so the barrier would've been very weakened even by Early Mesolithic times.
    Weakened, but not removed:

    In the case of the Ural frontier, the Khvalynian Sea separated the populations east and west of the Ural Mountains for millennia, and the saline desert-steppe that replaced it...probably remained a significant ecological barrier for pedestrian foragers. (Anthony)
    Where you have a persistent barrier, populations diverge. The spill-way from the Khvalynian Sea to the Black Sea would have dried up post-flood (~11,000-9,000 BCE), however, no longer blocking north-south movement between the Caucacus and the Pontic-Steppes. The receding of the northern ice sheets would have allowed greater east-west movement across the steppes and over the Urals. Where WHG, CHG, and EHG fit into this is an open question.

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    The most disturbing think about this study, is how it makes its brash conclusion, based on a few samples from W. Georgia, dated to the upper palelithic, without samples from the same or earlier time period in iran or anatolia. Especially considering, so called, 'chg' samples, to date, are all j bearers, strongly suggesting they are products of west asian population expansions beginning from the last glacial maximum, up until the neolithic.

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    Indeed, IJ linker was found in iran, some years ago. That's why I have suggested such conclusions of the paper are not only wrong, but backwards. Caucaus groups , as early as the late upper paleolithic (Satp and kk1), seem much more likely to be the descendants of population movements from the south, in west asia. But the authors dont have samples that date to that period from iran/anatolia, but are surprisingly eager to draw there conclusions. So essentially, the results of these types of studies are better to materbaute to, then to take seriously.

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    Given the high temporal divergence of caucasoud y-haogroups, but the relatively low adna genetic distance between modern caucasoid populations which bear them, it is clear that the earlier populations which these haplogroups (r1a, r1b, j, i) were found, had been considerable homogenized. Given the types of ultra rare, basal haplogroups found in Iran (ij, r1b*, j2a, r2) and Turkey, there is no more obvious region for the nexus of this homogenization.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @Epoch
    you wrote: EDIT: I don't think this is accurate anymore. Drift is by far a bigger changer of DNA than mutations.

    could you explain how drift occurs without mutations? Or it implies crossings with other pops, or "loosing of genes" so reduced DNA (!?!)


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    Welcome it's an exciting place to grow and learn. There are always many people to help you and please Never hesitate to ask me. I hope these words that are being shared help you to answer some of your questions
    Eduardo Moreno
    IZB; University of Bern; Bern, Switzerland
    Key words: out of Africa, human evolution, human genetics, ritual fights, human behavior, super-competitors, warfare,
    haplotypes, hunter

    The “out of Africa” hypothesis proposes that a small group of Homo sapiens left Africa 80,000 years ago, spreading
    the mitochondrial haplotype L3 throughout the Earth.1-10 Little effort has been made to try to reconstruct the society
    and culture of the tribe that left Africa to populate the rest of the world.1 Here, I find that hunter-gatherers that belong
    to mitochondrial haplotypes L0, L1 and L2 do not have a culture of ritualized fights. In contrast to this, almost all L3
    derived hunter-gatherers have a more belligerent culture that includes ritualized fights such as wrestling, stick fights
    or headhunting expeditions. This appears to be independent of their environment because ritualized fights occur in
    all climates, from the tropics to the arctic. There is also a correlation between mitochondrial haplotypes and warfare
    propensity or the use of murder and suicide to resolve conflicts. The data implicate that the original human population
    outside Africa is descended from only two closely related sub-branches that practiced ritual fighting and had a higher
    propensity towards warfare and the use of murder for conflict resolution. This warfare culture may have given the out of
    Africa migrants a competitive advantage to colonize the world. But it could also have crucially influenced the subsequent
    history of The Earth. In the future, it would be interesting to see how we could further reconstruct the society and culture
    of the “Out of Africa Tribe.”

  12. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREYWOTAN View Post
    Welcome it's an exciting place to grow and learn. There are always many people to help you and please Never hesitate to ask me. I hope these words that are being shared help you to answer some of your questions
    Eduardo Moreno
    IZB; University of Bern; Bern, Switzerland
    Key words: out of Africa, human evolution, human genetics, ritual fights, human behavior, super-competitors, warfare,
    haplotypes, hunter

    The “out of Africa” hypothesis proposes that a small group of Homo sapiens left Africa 80,000 years ago, spreading
    the mitochondrial haplotype L3 throughout the Earth.1-10 Little effort has been made to try to reconstruct the society
    and culture of the tribe that left Africa to populate the rest of the world.1 Here, I find that hunter-gatherers that belong
    to mitochondrial haplotypes L0, L1 and L2 do not have a culture of ritualized fights. In contrast to this, almost all L3
    derived hunter-gatherers have a more belligerent culture that includes ritualized fights such as wrestling, stick fights
    or headhunting expeditions. This appears to be independent of their environment because ritualized fights occur in
    all climates, from the tropics to the arctic. There is also a correlation between mitochondrial haplotypes and warfare
    propensity or the use of murder and suicide to resolve conflicts. The data implicate that the original human population
    outside Africa is descended from only two closely related sub-branches that practiced ritual fighting and had a higher
    propensity towards warfare and the use of murder for conflict resolution. This warfare culture may have given the out of
    Africa migrants a competitive advantage to colonize the world. But it could also have crucially influenced the subsequent
    history of The Earth. In the future, it would be interesting to see how we could further reconstruct the society and culture
    of the “Out of Africa Tribe.”
    The current data does not support the idea that the human race evolved from a single tribe in Africa. Rather, it supports multi-regionalism within Africa.

    It is discussed in this thread:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Does-It-Matter

  13. #138
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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The current data does not support the idea that the human race evolved from a single tribe in Africa. Rather, it supports multi-regionalism within Africa.

    It is discussed in this thread:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Does-It-Matter
    yes, but that was before out of Africa

    the out of Africa have common ancestors with those who remained in Africa

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    My understanding of this paper is shaky at best, but would it be correct to say that there are two main scenarios that would explain these results?

    1) In 26,000bp there was a small Dzudzuana population in the Caucasus that migrated and expanded between 26,000 and 13,000bp, leaving the Caucasus and becoming dominant in West Asia and after 13,000bp expanding further to become dominant throughout West Eurasia and North Africa.

    2) In 26,000bp the Dzudzuana population, which might be called Ancestral West Asian, was already widespread across Anatolia and perhaps the Levant. Dzudzuana Cave was near the eastern edge of this population. After 13,000bp it became more widespread because it was the main ancestral component of both WHG and West Asian neolithic populations, including the West Anatolian neolithic population that spread into Europe.
    In 26,000bp this large Dzudzuana population was contemporaneous with the Gravettian in Europe, ANE in Siberia, an Iranian HG population, and other HG populations further east. Because the Caucasus was the eastern fringe of the Dzudzuana population, over the next 10-12,000 years the Caucasian sub-population inter-mixed with their neighbours, ANE coming from the north east and Iranian HGs from the south east. By around 13,000bp, CHG combined admixture from these three populations, with Dzudzuana reduced to a minor component.

    The second hypothesis seems more plausible to me, but the answer will come when there are more Paleolithic aDNA samples from West Asia and North Africa.

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