All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago

[halfalp]

well, so there was somebody crossing the Balkans carrying it's CHG share. Now, they were pushed northwards by EEF? they were a local minority among EEF? the archaeological registry fails to detect them in the Neolithic?

I dont know that much about genetic to say, but i bet CHG in Europe gonna actually turn out to be Dzudzuana element into ANF, that was labeled as CHG in calculator because of lack of sourc pop. But who knows.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Considering there is only about 500 years difference that splits Z2103 and L51 from the parent node, I'm not sure how different they really could be. L51+ was most likely sprung from a western steppe culture

I don’t think that Z2103 originated on the Steppe though. I think the split between Z2103 and L51 happened somewhere in the Balkano-Asian region.

 

[markod]

well, so there was somebody crossing the Balkans carrying it's CHG share. Now, they were pushed northwards by EEF? they were a local minority among EEF? the archaeological registry fails to detect them in the Neolithic?

One interesting possibility would be Crimean Kemi Oba culture. This is the culture that brought the characteristic stelae to the PC steppe.

 

[halfalp]

The CHG element in Europe is already in Motala ( SHG ), Baltic HG, some Iron Gates HG and Eastern Europe Neolithic, its then way earlier than Kemi Oba. We dont know if CHG in those population shows a shared ancestry or if this is a proper demic migration, because their calculator dont have source pop. With Dzudzuana, they should be able now to say if we are talking about CHG or about Dzudzuana shared ancestry with Villabruna.

 

[markod]

The CHG element in Europe is already in Motala ( SHG ), Baltic HG, some Iron Gates HG and Eastern Europe Neolithic, its then way earlier than Kemi Oba. We dont know if CHG in those population shows a shared ancestry or if this is a proper demic migration, because their calculator dont have source pop. With Dzudzuana, they should be able now to say if we are talking about CHG or about Dzudzuana shared ancestry with Villabruna.

I wonder if there could have been Yamnaya-like groups around the northern slopes of the Caucasus since the Mesolithic, and whether the EHG-CHG mixture model might be just a statistical relic caused by Yamnaya's intermediate position.

 

[Olympus Mons]

What was the population density in Iberia? Low population density could help explain the high y-dna replacement rates in Iberia and Britain. Did climatic change cause drought, famine, plague, and, thus, depopulation?

No. Iberia was "OVERPOPULATED" by the 3rd Milenium BC. As the rest of Europe was geographically very low population density, Iberia and in the beginning of that milenia had places like Zambujal , Perdigoes,Porto torrão, San Blas, Valencia La conception, La pijotilla,some as big as 80ha in size, so objectively the size of UR in Mesopotamia. Hence all the Fortified places and warrior culture - That is what makes it strange the narrative of full male replacement of a warrior cultures ...

By the way. We have zero. ZERO, Adna from this builders of fortified places in portugal and south iberia, these Enclosure enormous settlements.

 

[markod]

No. Iberia was "OVERPOPULATED" by the 3rd Milenium BC. As the rest of Europe was geographically very low population density, Iberia and in the beginning of that milenia had places like Zambujal , Perdigoes,Porto torrão, San Blas, Valencia La conception, La pijotilla,some as big as 80ha in size, so objectively the size of UR in Mesopotamia. Hence all the Fortified places and warrior culture - That is what makes it strange the narrative of full male replacement of a warrior cultures ...

By the way. We have zero. ZERO, Adna from this builders of fortified places in portugal and south iberia, these Enclosure enormous settlements.

I linked a paper on Valencia La Concepcion earlier in the thread. Impressive site. Those must have been by far the most powerful people in Europe at the time and for some hundred years afterwards. I hope they'll be tested.

 

[Olympus Mons]

well, so there was somebody crossing the Balkans carrying it's CHG share. Now, they were pushed northwards by EEF? they were a local minority among EEF? the archaeological registry fails to detect them in the Neolithic?

Berun, this Hollywood types of narratives (like super Yamnaya) fails us all. However, if you fine grain it, its actually useful:
After hundreds of papers read, this is obvious to me in the Archeological registry:

4900 BC (even earlier) – There was CHG loaded people crossing the big Caucasus mountains into north Caucasus. Even more funny I think the one crossing by west Caspian sea, were not exactly by then the same admix as the ones crossing by east black sea cost… Not same EEG/CHG ratio.

4600 BC – You see the arrival of these same guys (with CHG) into south Balkans (Thrace/Bulgaria/Romania) after crossing north Anatolia (Kum6) and making Boian and slightly later Gulmenita cultures.

By 4200 bc - The already mixed with Hamangia and were moving north. Forming Pre-cucuteni culture.

By 4000bc – The ones moving north around west Black sea were meeting their “cousins” in north caucasus. It the ensued mix of the ones arriving in 5000bc (now with lots of EHG) and these ones arriving 1000 years later with lots more EEF that makes the whole steppe admix seen in aDna. The problem is from north Romania onwards they were already mixing with EHG component people. They didn’t have to reach the steppe to make “Steppe” component admix. There is a sample 6000bc in north Romania that is almost full EHG.(!).


Due too economic reasons, Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova or Ukraine (outside Chicago Univ works on steppe) are not very developed archaeologically and that shows in our knowledge.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

No. Iberia was "OVERPOPULATED" by the 3rd Milenium BC. As the rest of Europe was geographically very low population density, Iberia and in the beginning of that milenia had places like Zambujal , Perdigoes,Porto torrão, San Blas, Valencia La conception, La pijotilla,some as big as 80ha in size, so objectively the size of UR in Mesopotamia. Hence all the Fortified places and warrior culture - That is what makes it strange the narrative of full male replacement of a warrior cultures ...

By the way. We have zero. ZERO, Adna from this builders of fortified places in portugal and south iberia, these Enclosure enormous settlements.

That's disgraceful to be honest. Not that they are necessarily R1b - they could be J2 too. But, I'd guess R1b.

 

[MOESAN]

@GloomyGonzalez

Corsica as entry door of R1b-L151(L11) into Western Europe? A bit surprising! Why Corsica? Why not another place of Western Medierranea? I don't see a trail for L51/L151 through Anatolia, with the current data at least, spite it could be a thin possibility - Italy could have been(upon the ame data) a point of development of L51/L151 (not of birth) but in North not in South, for I think

 

[halfalp]

I wonder if there could have been Yamnaya-like groups around the northern slopes of the Caucasus since the Mesolithic, and whether the EHG-CHG mixture model might be just a statistical relic caused by Yamnaya's intermediate position.

What could be is that R1b is originally something AG3 / ANE and that EHG / CHG are actually somehow older than WHG. It's now pretty certain that R1b cannot came from a southern road because of the total lack of something " Basal Eurasian " in Paleolithic Europe. R1b would enter in Eastern Europe at some point in the Epipaleolithic and create the Villabruna Cluster somewhere in Southeast Europe with people of / or related with the Dzudzuana individuals maybe lead with haplogroup I. Then already in the Mesolithic WHG / EHG / CHG would be all already with R1b. Probably at some point, the Basal Eurasian / Iran_Neolithic ancestry came in Eastern Europe with J and create the Satsurblia Cluster both North and South of the Caucasus. The problem with that later idea, is that Steppic population as shown in the Maikop paper are not really full of CHG, i found it very odd that only the " very important " samples are filled with CHG ancestry. In the Caucasus paper, AG3 and Mal'ta 1 also have the green component supposed to be BE / CHG.

 

[halfalp]

I wonder if there could have been Yamnaya-like groups around the northern slopes of the Caucasus since the Mesolithic, and whether the EHG-CHG mixture model might be just a statistical relic caused by Yamnaya's intermediate position.

Dzudzuana is himself partially AG3 so ANE, i found it very odd again, that they have eastern european samples from 30'000 BCE and 10'000 BCE but not from the gap between, or that the samples are of too low quality, somwhere where pergelisol and then conservation is pretty common. That frustrate me a little bit.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

No. Iberia was "OVERPOPULATED" by the 3rd Milenium BC. As the rest of Europe was geographically very low population density, Iberia and in the beginning of that milenia had places like Zambujal , Perdigoes,Porto torrão, San Blas, Valencia La conception, La pijotilla,some as big as 80ha in size, so objectively the size of UR in Mesopotamia. Hence all the Fortified places and warrior culture - That is what makes it strange the narrative of full male replacement of a warrior cultures ...

By the way. We have zero. ZERO, Adna from this builders of fortified places in portugal and south iberia, these Enclosure enormous settlements.

Ice cores show a strong cold period from ~3,000-2,500 BC. Coldest at ~2,750 BC, with colder periods in the last 10,000 years only at ~6,250 BC and ~750 AD. See: http://oi53.tinypic.com/sg2wav.jpg

Zambujal had an interior courtyard, within the walls, of 25 meters (82 feet). Los Millares (not mentioned by you) was a walled settlement of ~5 acres and maybe 1,000 inhabitants. Most of the places you mentioned look to have been ditched enclosures of pits (graves?) and tombs, not walled/fortified towns. I couldn't find any evidence of the "enormous settlements" you are claiming.

 

[Olympus Mons]

Ice cores show a strong cold period from ~3,000-2,500 BC. Coldest at ~2,750 BC, with colder periods in the last 10,000 years only at ~6,250 BC and ~750 AD. See: http://oi53.tinypic.com/sg2wav.jpg
Zambujal had an interior courtyard, within the walls, of 25 meters (82 feet). Los Millares (not mentioned by you) was a walled settlement of ~5 acres and maybe 1,000 inhabitants. Most of the places you mentioned look to have been ditched enclosures of pits (graves?) and tombs, not walled/fortified towns. I couldn't find any evidence of the "enormous settlements" you are claiming.

Then look better. I for sure will not look it up for you.
If you don't know.... Learn.

 

[MOESAN]

It's not a conclusive point, but IMO huge urbanism as a whole is a sign of eastern Mediterranea pops (maybe since the 4000 BC), very in contradiction to uses among post-Mesolithic people and genuine steppic tribes;

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Then look better. I for sure will not look it up for you.
If you don't know.... Learn.

You made the claim of "enormous settlements"...

I did look up each of the references you made and could find nothing of the sort. Ur, by the way, had a population of ~65,000. While some of the ditched enclosures (really "henges", not "settlements") might have been comparable in "size", they were hardly even remotely similar in population.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

I linked a paper on Valencia La Concepcion earlier in the thread. Impressive site. Those must have been by far the most powerful people in Europe at the time and for some hundred years afterwards. I hope they'll be tested.

The physical demarcation of the perimeter of the settlement by a walled enclosure, as found in Los Millares and in many other settlements of the 3rd millennium cal BC, is absent in Valencina de la Concepción, which suggests a significant variability of patterns in the organization of the settlement space.

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/24099.pdf

 

[markod]

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/24099.pdf

That's old: https://rd.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s10963-018-9114-2.pdf

tl ; dr: huge crypt with magnificent grave goods, 20 wives etc

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

That's old: https://rd.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s10963-018-9114-2.pdf

tl ; dr: huge crypt with magnificent grave goods, 20 wives etc

R1b-L51 P.I.M.P.

 

[Olympus Mons]

You made the claim of "enormous settlements"...

I did look up each of the references you made and could find nothing of the sort. Ur, by the way, had a population of ~65,000. While some of the ditched enclosures (really "henges", not "settlements") might have been comparable in "size", they were hardly even remotely similar in population.

????? - Of course it did not have the same population of UR. Ur was a "city" of people on top of eachother!

Enormous settlement because San blas, for instance, was over 400HA in size! as big or bigger than ur- do you know anything at the time bigger in europe?
Porto torrão, 60 miles way was at least 80H and La pijotilla 30 miles way was over 200Ha...
( **** UR - Area city 71 ha (0.27 sq mi) Buffer zone 317 ha (1.22 sq mi)



(https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Valencina_de_la_Concepcion_Seville_Spainmore)

What does that matter? - So to the question and at point -- Iberia was heavy , heavy populated and with fortress like leceia and Zambujal being rebuild, reinforced and expanded for over 500 years, that even 3 thousand years later is referred by Strabo (leceia).