All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago

[Olympus Mons]

Yes, the Spanish Chalcolithic samples are indeed generally autosomally similar to Southern Swedish Neolithic, apart from ATP3 (most likely M269) which is rather different. Of course, Southern Sweden is pretty close to Poland, which looks a likely origin point for formative L23. This perhaps leads to a third possibility - that ATP3 was brought to Northern Spain from the South Eastern Baltic by maritime Megalithic folk that were connected to both areas - although, if so, it appears unlikely to be a L51 Bell Beaker ancestor.

Yes. Let us all bank on maritime routes for which we have no record of.
At all. Makes no sense. Specially because its asking to prove a negative (no remains of those boats left)

This kind of talk is a level bellow what we can safely assert today. I mean by 4th millenia bc movement of people was all over and multi direction. So we really from then must relay heavily on archeology (before was easier as people lived spaciously) or have vast aDna samples for the same region for multi generations. ... Copper to iron age is going to be difficult.

 

[markod]

Yes, the Spanish Chalcolithic samples are indeed generally autosomally similar to Southern Swedish Neolithic, apart from ATP3 (most likely M269) which is rather different. Of course, Southern Sweden is pretty close to Poland, which looks a likely origin point for formative L23. This perhaps leads to a third possibility - that ATP3 was brought to Northern Spain from the South Eastern Baltic by maritime Megalithic folk that were connected to both areas - although, if so, it appears unlikely to be a L51 Bell Beaker ancestor.

I think it's ATP3 who is closest of all CA samples to the hunter-gatherer admixed Funnelbeakers:

Here FN and ATP (esp. ATP3) have the same tendency towards modern Basques already seen in Günther (2015).

The sample has very low coverage though, so it might not very reliable.

 

[Pip]

A maritime route remains a possibility, regardless of whether there are any ancient boats around to evidence it.
The most striking feature of ATP3 is its apparent absence of WHG - l would say indicative of a North East European ancestry. Unlike other Iberian, Gokhem or indeed Pontic Steppe.

 

[Olympus Mons]

....
The most striking feature of ATP3 is its apparent absence of WHG - l would say indicative of a North East European ancestry. Unlike other Iberian, Gokhem or indeed Pontic Steppe.

Pip. Elaborate a bit more.
Eg apparent absence of WHG... what do you mean? Where are you getting that from? Just from Markod PCA?

 

[markod]

A maritime route remains a possibility, regardless of whether there are any ancient boats around to evidence it.
The most striking feature of ATP3 is its apparent absence of WHG - l would say indicative of a North East European ancestry. Unlike other Iberian, Gokhem or indeed Pontic Steppe.

Alternatively he might have additional Basal Eurasian admxiture compared to other Atapuerca samples. We just can't tell from the PCA.

Wouldn't North-East European ancestry cause an additional WHG shift, however? IMHO it looks either like he has either direct Siberian or ENA ancestry or Iran_Neo ancestry which pulls ATP3 away from WHG.

 

[Olympus Mons]

.... or Iran_Neo ancestry which pulls ATP3 away from WHG.

Hey.... don't get my hopes High!!
Even that possibility would make him closer to my believes...

 

[markod]

Hey.... don't get my hopes High!!
Even that possibility would make him closer to my believes...

Yeah, if for ATP3 we presuppose a two-way admixture between the other Atapuerca genomes and an outsider, the cline would be have to be extrapolated to Lebanese -> Armenian -> Iran_Chalcolithic.

But there's no way to know that the process was so simple. ATP3 might simply have been an outsider, or he might have received admixture from more than one source.

 

[halfalp]

Hey.... don't get my hopes High!!
Even that possibility would make him closer to my believes...

So, let's chit chat a little bit, you are opposed to anything new of hypothesis, but you love Iran, and you are Portuguese right? Can you just out yourself and your motivations please.

 

[Olympus Mons]

So, let's chit chat a little bit, you are opposed to anything new of hypothesis, but you love Iran, and you are Portuguese right? Can you just out yourself and your motivations please.

Stay ....way...from....me....!

 

[Olympus Mons]

Yeah, if for ATP3 we presuppose a two-way admixture between the other Atapuerca genomes and an outsider, the cline would be have to be extrapolated to Lebanese -> Armenian -> Iran_Chalcolithic.

But there's no way to know that the process was so simple. ATP3 might simply have been an outsider, or he might have received admixture from more than one source.

Yes, I suspect that figuring out late Chalc, copper to Bronze age is going to be tricky if it were periods were everybody was going everywhere. Unless number of samples are numerous and from regions just tens of miles away to map significance, we always run the risk of inferring too much. But we will get there. A matter of time.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Yes. Let us all bank on maritime routes for which we have no record of.
At all. Makes no sense. Specially because its asking to prove a negative (no remains of those boats left).

Boats? I've got boats!

View attachment 10477

https://www.donsmaps.com/boats.html

View attachment 10478

In fact, the oldest boat images dated to 8-9 Ka BP were found in Gobustan, on the Caspian coast, south of the Kura River delta (Dzhafar-zade, 1973). Those are rock paintings showing not only flat-bottomed boats and keel-built vessels suitable for marine navigation, some with as many as 37 oarsmen. The earliest ships appeared in the Caspian region immediately after the Flood, which may be interpreted as a result of this event.

http://paleogeo.org/flood_en.html

The Absheron Peninsula of present-day Azerbaijan, especially Gobustan National Park, on the south-western shores of the Caspian, is a significant site for rock art. The images include boats – possibly made from reeds – including some dating from the Paleolithic/Mesolithic era.

https://www.quora.com/How-important...-spread-to-the-other-side-through-the-Caspian

With the Aral, expanded Caspian, Black, and Aegean Seas connected by spillways and channels, communication by water between the Zagros region of Iran and the Mediterranean was at least theoretically possible.

 

[Pip]

My information for ATP3 is 0% WHG, 24% EHG, 67% EEF, 6% CHG and 3% Middle East - remarkably similar to (later) Croatian Vucedol Z2103. I would say this looks most like a newcomer/outsider - near North Eastern Europe (Poland) mixed with some South Eastern Balkan/Anatolian, approximately replicating L51 Bell Beaker, but in different proportions. He also looks an outlier - I am not aware of any data to indicate that his kin wiped out all Iberian men 900 years later, and think it most likely that they died out or retreated to South Central Europe shortly after arriving in Iberia.

 

[Olympus Mons]

My information for ATP3 is 0% WHG, 24% EHG, 67% EEF, 6% CHG and 3% Middle East -.....

Don't be cryptic. What is "your information"?

 

[Pip]

The source is Genetiker.

 

[Olympus Mons]

The source is Genetiker.

THanks.
I agree with you insofar as ATP3 really looks outlier. Too bad nobody is poking a little more in him. He really looked like an interesting guy.

 

[markod]

The source is Genetiker.

You could at least post a link or something, Jesus.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

You could at least post a link or something, Jesus.

Via Maciamo, I have this analysis:

"ATP3 (3516–3362 BCE) stands out from other samples thanks to its high Northern Middle Eastern ancestry (31.97%) against 0% for ATP20, 11% for ATP17 and between 0% and 8% for other samples. What Genetiker calls Northern Middle Eastern is what we typically referred on this forum as Caucaso-Gedrosian admixture - the same as in the "Armenian-like admixture" in Yamna samples.

With its 32% of Caucaso-Gedrosian, 14% of Northern European ancestry, 6% of European Hunter-Gatherer and 3.8% of Veddoid, it does indeed look as if ATP3 has a bit over half of Steppe ancestry, but with a higher proportion of northern Middle Eastern and Veddoid than Yamna samples. In other words it could be descended to the pre-Indo-European Anatolian R1b-M269, the group of cattle herders that would cross the Caucasus and settle in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe. So could it be an offshoot of cattle herders that directly migrated from Anatolia to Iberia during the Neolithic period. But if so, how did his lineage not get more admixed along the way ? Neolithic farmers all over Europe were overwhelmingly (and often exclusively) Southern-European in admixture. "

From this thread:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31558-Analysis-of-Chalcolithic-El-Portalon-samples-(G%C3%BCnther-at-al-2015)

Some of the other samples seem dodgy (mainly the signs of African ancestry, which is almost certainly due to it being a bad sample). But ATP3 seems fine.

 

[markod]

Via Maciamo, I have this analysis:

"ATP3 (3516–3362 BCE) stands out from other samples thanks to its high Northern Middle Eastern ancestry (31.97%) against 0% for ATP20, 11% for ATP17 and between 0% and 8% for other samples. What Genetiker calls Northern Middle Eastern is what we typically referred on this forum as Caucaso-Gedrosian admixture - the same as in the "Armenian-like admixture" in Yamna samples.

With its 32% of Caucaso-Gedrosian, 14% of Northern European ancestry, 6% of European Hunter-Gatherer and 3.8% of Veddoid, it does indeed look as if ATP3 has a bit over half of Steppe ancestry, but with a higher proportion of northern Middle Eastern and Veddoid than Yamna samples. In other words it could be descended to the pre-Indo-European Anatolian R1b-M269, the group of cattle herders that would cross the Caucasus and settle in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe. So could it be an offshoot of cattle herders that directly migrated from Anatolia to Iberia during the Neolithic period. But if so, how did his lineage not get more admixed along the way ? Neolithic farmers all over Europe were overwhelmingly (and often exclusively) Southern-European in admixture. "

From this thread:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31558-Analysis-of-Chalcolithic-El-Portalon-samples-(G%C3%BCnther-at-al-2015)

Some of the other samples seem dodgy (mainly the signs of African ancestry, which is almost certainly due to it being a bad sample). But ATP3 seems fine.

Maciamo's analysis is in line with what I could gather about ATP3. In Genetiker's admixture analysis he also gets roughly 30% Iranian admixture:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/201...sis-of-copper-and-bronze-age-spanish-genomes/

It would explain why ATP3 is on a cline towards Iran in the PCA:

I'm still skeptical though, since the sample has a low coverage and I don't understand *why* there would be a man with 1/3 Iranian ancestry in Chalcolithic Northern Spain. Very out of place IMHO.

 

[Olympus Mons]

I'm still skeptical though, since the sample has a low coverage and I don't understand *why* there would be a man with 1/3 Iranian ancestry in Chalcolithic Northern Spain. Very out of place IMHO.

I know why!!! I know why!! ... And most important how!

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Maciamo's analysis is in line with what I could gather about ATP3. In Genetiker's admixture analysis he also gets roughly 30% Iranian admixture:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/201...sis-of-copper-and-bronze-age-spanish-genomes/

It would explain why ATP3 is on a cline towards Iran in the PCA:

I'm still skeptical though, since the sample has a low coverage and I don't understand *why* there would be a man with 1/3 Iranian ancestry in Chalcolithic Northern Spain. Very out of place IMHO.

Well the Northern Spain bit is confusing to me, but if we just say he got lost from Southern Spain (lol) then we can just look at the Los Millares culture, which as I've pointed out before has clear West Asian influences (in the form of their beehive tombs), but also show signs of being some form of warlike caste system (which sounds very R1-like). It's a great candidate, imo at least.

What do you think of the rest of things Genetiker mentioned in that link btw? So for Chinchorro, I'm basically 100% certain he is correct to some degree, given the appearance of the mummies being SO CLEARLY Caucasoid. It is literally cognitive dissonance to claim otherwise, and I'd happily bet my life on it. If aDNA consistently fails to show any signs of this, I would genuinely count that as evidence of censorship - the mummies are that clearly Caucasoid. Though Genetiker clearly suffers from delusional thinking (mainly delusions of grandeur), he is mostly correct.

As for PIE being Gravettian - I obviously disagree with that, BUT I do see the Epigravettian (rather than Solutrean, which I see as being Y DNA I) as being the original homeland of R1, or at least R1b. Then, during the Chalcolithic, R1b-M269 expands from the Balkans into the Middle East (bringing copper metallurgy with it) yadayadayada - I've said it a million times before.

And answer me this (going back to pre-Viking West Eurasian contact with the Americas) - WHY do we still not know the specific Native American R1b?