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Thread: All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago

  1. #776
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    Curious about who the Iberian men were that were eliminated. As to how, I would think warfare is likely a part of it, as the invading group was adept at warfare and by the time they reached the Iberian area they were very well schooled. Disease may have been a part of it as they traveled far and may have had the population mass to have inculcated disease resistance for themselves.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrance Stuart View Post
    Curious about who the Iberian men were that were eliminated. As to how, I would think warfare is likely a part of it, as the invading group was adept at warfare and by the time they reached the Iberian area they were very well schooled. Disease may have been a part of it as they traveled far and may have had the population mass to have inculcated disease resistance for themselves.
    I don't know what Reich found, but previously-obtained data would suggest that these Iberian men were predominantly from North East Mediterranean Cardial culture stock (G2a2, E1b1b, H2, J2a1 and R1b1a2), together with a minority of prior lineages (I2 and C1).
    Disease may well have played a part, although I'm not sure this would explain why the Iberian male lines seem to have been impacted to a much greater degree than the female lines.
    Last edited by Pip; 04-12-18 at 10:32.

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    ecept if the site of the resistance gene is on X-chromosome, I don't see (as says PIP) why males would be stroken very most often than females, among Neolithic people's descendants. We could think that West Europe was a bit outside the "eye" of the plague, but then Iberian males too would have escaped the most of the plague, or...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terrance Stuart View Post
    Curious about who the Iberian men were that were eliminated. As to how, I would think warfare is likely a part of it, as the invading group was adept at warfare and by the time they reached the Iberian area they were very well schooled. Disease may have been a part of it as they traveled far and may have had the population mass to have inculcated disease resistance for themselves.
    Plague often accompanies famine. The invaders would have captured food stores and controlled land (for food production), disbursing it to their favorites and clients. Native women would have been more likely to be taken as wives or personal servants, and fed, while native men would have been more likely to be enslaved, and thus underfed, if not simply killed or left to starve. This discrepancy would have been even greater in the case of a strongly male-biased invasion. Polygamy would have accentuated it.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    On the combined effects of polygamy, primogeniture, and the price of brides:

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...-cons-polygamy

    A man who takes more than one wife satisfies some of his sexual urges, signals his high social status, and generally feels happier about himself. His many children supply him with a ready source of labor, and the means, through arranged marriages, to forge multiple social, economic, and political alliances. Polygyny may be costly, but in the long term, it can make a rich man richer.
    Polygyny might even benefit the women involved, who may come to enjoy one another’s company and share out the burdens of housekeeping and childrearing. Younger wives may add to the social standing of the first wife, while at the same time reducing her workload.
    Polygyny also has many drawbacks, particularly when seen through a modern, western lens. First and foremost, it sanctions and perpetuates gender inequality, with co-wives officially and patently subordinated to their husband. Women in polygynous unions tend to marry at a younger age, into a setup that, by its very nature, fosters jealousy, competition, and conflict, with instances of co-wives poisoning one another’s offspring in a bid to advantage their own. Although the husband ought in principle to treat his co-wives equally, in practice he will almost inevitably favor one over the others—most likely the youngest, most recent one.
    While polygyny may benefit the men involved, it denies wives to other men, especially young, low-status men, who tend to measure their success by their manhood, that is, by the twin parameters of social status and fertility. With little to lose, these frustrated men are much more likely to turn to crime and violence, including sexual violence and warmongering.
    All this is only aggravated by the brideprice, a payment from the groom to the bride’s family. Brideprice is a frequent feature of polygynous unions and is intended to compensate the bride’s family for the loss of a pair of hands. Divorce typically requires that the brideprice be returned, forcing many women to remain in miserable or abusive marriages. If polygamous unions are common, the resulting shortage of brides inflates the brideprice, raising the age at which young men can afford to marry while incentivizing families to hive off their daughters at the soonest opportunity, even at the cost of interrupting their education. Brideprice if often paid in cows, and, to afford a bride, young men may resort to cattle raids and other forms of crime.
    Polygyny also tends to disadvantage the offspring. On the one hand, children in polygamous families share in the genes of an alpha male and stand to benefit from his protection, resources, influence, outlook, and expertise. But on the other hand, their mothers are younger and less educated, and they receive a divided share of their father’s attention, which may be directed at his latest wife, or at amassing resources for his next one.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-wives-hearts/

    The growth of polygamy and social inequality in the late Iron Age meant that richer men took many wives, or concubines, causing an inbalance in the male-female sex ratio.

    Suddenly young poor men had little chance of securing a wife unless they became rich and well-known quickly, says Prof Collard. And raiding was a shortcut to heroism and treasure, he believes.
    “In a population where just a few powerful older men are able to have multiple concubines you end up with a large number of young single men quite rapidly. Some men would have two to three wives, but the Norse sagas say that some princes had limitless numbers.

    “So raiding was a way to build up wealth and power. Men could gain a place in society, and the chance for wives if they took part in raids and proved their masculinity and came back wealthy.

    “Because polygynous marriage increases male-male competition by creating a pool of unmarried men, it increases risky status-elevating behaviour.”
    Recent studies found that aggression rises when there is a shift in the male-female sex ratio and where the percentage of unmarried men is greater, the rates of rape, murder, assault, theft and fraud also rise.

    New research has also shown that Yanomamo tribes in South America resort to inter-village raiding for polygamous marriages.
    And the archaeological evidence of the graves of Viking raiding parties also suggests that sailors were young males, rather than seasoned soldiers.
    “It is possible that the combined effects of polygyny, concubinage and social stratification simply reached a tipping point that led to a surge in raiding.

    “With elite men monopolising an increasing percentage of women, many low-status men would have found it difficult to marry unless they were willing to engage in risky activites to improve wealth and status.”

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @CrazyDonkey

    Your quotes remind me of the Irish legends that describe the life and feats of Fionn of the Fianna. Though they are filled with supernatural events that seem to deprive them of historical significance, some aspects of those narratives are corroborated by reliable sources. They suggest that in early medieval Ireland, a form of local ver sacrum still existed, which didn't imply exploring new territories, but simply living off the land, hunting and warring, while at the same time providing a mercenary force for the High King or the nobility. Here is what wiki says about those Fianna :

    The historical institution of the fiann is known from references in early medieval Irish law tracts. A fiann was made up of landless young men and women, often young aristocrats who had not yet come into their inheritance of land. A member of a fiann was called a fénnid; the leader of a fiann was a rígfénnid (literally "king-fénnid).

    Geoffrey Keating, in his 17th-century History of Ireland, says that during the winter the fianna were quartered and fed by the nobility, during which time they would keep order on their behalf, but during the summer, from Beltaine to Samhain, they were obliged to live by hunting for food and for pelts to sell. Keating's History is more a compilation of traditions than a reliable history, but in this case scholars point to references in early Irish poetry and the existence of a closed hunting season for deer and wild boar between Samhain and Beltaine in medieval Scotland as corroboration.


    In the legends, Fionn Mac Cumhail (Finn McCool) and his men die because their team of super-warriors has become so efficient and self-sufficient that they get to be seen as a threat by the central power. So the High King looses all his armies on them, and the Fianna are outnumbered, massacred and scattered.
    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    the today Y-R1b in Iberia: apart Basque country and Catalonya, their %'s are between 50% and 66%, roughly said. Yes, they are high %s. But could I believe that at the Chalco-Bronze Age transition, R1b reached the 98% everywhere in Iberia? In far South? Could I?
    All males slaughtered? Eveywhere? So dense was the population that there reminds no refuge lands to shelter?
    Or my brain is turning into rotted cabbage, or there are some exagerations in these affirmations.
    This does not exclude there has been a huge change there at these dates, and a big desequilibrium in mating power for males...

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