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Thread: All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago

  1. #826
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    When they came to Iberia, they were mixed already, not 100 steppe. So for Iberia the relative impact of the BB takeover was truly huge.

    @Ack: There is no such strong EHG component independent of steppe ancestry in NE Europe. There must be something wrong with your model.

  2. #827
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    When they came to Iberia, they were mixed already, not 100 steppe. So for Iberia the relative impact of the BB takeover was truly huge.

    @Ack: There is no such strong EHG component independent of steppe ancestry in NE Europe. There must be something wrong with your model.
    There is nothing wrong with the model.


    I used as a source:

    Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
    WHG,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445 ,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045
    GEO_CHG:KK1,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
    Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0. 1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537
    MAR_Iberomaurusian,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
    Baltic_LTU_Narva,0.0116,0.0109,0.0478167,0.0570333 ,0.0389833,0.0188,0.0046,0.0124,0.0289833,-0.0104667,-0.0034,-0.0130167,0.0184167,0.0033167,0.024,0.03545,0.0027 5,0.0041833,-0.0051667,0.0349,0.0531667,0.00625,-0.0237333,-0.0946,0.0092333
    IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2:I11466,0.044391,-0.020311,-0.171213,0.076551,-0.104635,0.054105,0.010105,-0.010384,-0.00225,0.019499,-0.008282,0.014237,-0.007136,-0.012386,0.018187,0.026783,0.011865,0.010135,0.003 017,-0.014632,0.00836,-0.013973,0.003081,-0.006266,0.008023
    IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic:I1955,0.094473,0.111708,-0.053551,-0.027455,-0.044316,-0.003347,0.00376,-0.004384,-0.03027,-0.016037,0.004709,-0.004046,0.005649,0.008533,0.004072,-0.002121,-0.022948,-0.004434,0.005531,-0.009755,-0.002496,-0.002844,0.001849,-0.008194,-0.001796
    RUS_Karelia_HG:I0211,0.12862,0.032497,0.125958,0.2 21902,0.003385,0.056057,-0.014571,-0.010615,0.007567,-0.084011,0.009581,-0.029674,0.047423,-0.018304,0.014794,0.041766,-0.020079,0.002154,-0.007668,0.003252,-0.01435,0.017188,0.005916,-0.027594,-0.00958
    Dinka,-0.577083,0.0507765,-0.0003773,-0.0075098,-0.0053855,-0.0016735,-0.0176848,0.0204222,0.081145,-0.0969495,-0.02107,0.022742,-0.0383172,-0.0011698,0.0101452,-0.021347,0.0186125,-0.0094382,0.0241968,-0.0241678,0.002402,0.003308,0.001479,0.0009038,0.0 096995
    ETH_4500BP,-0.511066,0.043668,0.000754,0.000969,-0.00277,-0.011435,0.050997,-0.045229,0.089172,-0.087838,-0.012991,-0.002997,-0.031219,0.000688,0.02158,-0.029965,0.027772,0.039273,0.00176,-0.009004,0.000374,0.006183,-0.003451,-0.00241,-0.000838
    Gambian,-0.6064875,0.0671942,0.0197362,0.0114665,0.0021028, 0.0055777,-0.0358392,0.0387677,-0.0317353,0.0241463,0.0054132,-0.0036467,0.0162287,-0.0009865,0.011016,-0.0153362,0.009692,-0.0011823,-0.002116,-0.0032307,-0.001643,-0.0018137,0.0043958,-0.0001005,0.001377
    Khomani_San,-0.6220435,0.060424,0.02093,0.030039,-0.0004615,0.000837,0.236773,-0.1823,0.0185095,0.0067425,0.00203,-0.053952,-0.0211845,0.005505,0.018797,-0.0212805,0.029662,0.2623085,-0.0877375,0.001751,-0.0331915,-0.002844,0.0038205,-0.0050005,0.0016765
    Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
    Nganassan,0.0476917,-0.4066181,0.1557885,0.0023902,-0.1594452,-0.0882129,0.0285066,0.0433367,0.0310876,0.0128477, 0.1028569,0.0094115,-0.0040734,-0.0261619,-0.0219731,-0.0123307,-0.0010952,0.0134165,0.0268365,-0.0008505,0.0431363,-0.0118954,0.0336096,0.0003977,0.0135556
    RUS_Chalmny-Varre,0.1109775,-0.0137095,0.109554,0.08398,-0.0078475,0.0110165,0.0081075,0.017768,0.0087945,-0.0248755,0.023384,-0.0076435,0.0199205,-0.014175,-0.0093645,0.005171,-0.001434,-0.004941,-0.0050275,0.005815,0.008111,0.000618,-0.0025265,0.000964,0.0008985
    Levant_Natufian:I0861,0.01935,0.135065,-0.039221,-0.135984,0.026774,-0.076137,-0.019036,-0.024691,0.100626,-0.008018,0.02858,-0.019633,0.067343,0.001651,0.022801,0.02612,-0.0103,0.006714,-0.018101,0.041395,-0.004118,-0.003215,-0.014297,-0.011206,0.011975


    The same model does not show any deviation for EHG In Ireland, England or Norway, but from eastern Germany and mainly in northeastern Europe the same model shows a huge deviation for EHG.

    Target: English
    Distance: 4.7162% / 0.04716228
    47.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    38.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    14.2 WHG

    Target: Dutch
    Distance: 4.4717% / 0.04471666
    48.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    37.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    13.4 WHG
    1.0 RUS_Karelia_HG


    Target: German_East:German_East3
    Distance: 4.6257% / 0.04625675
    41.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    39.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    13.8 WHG
    5.0 RUS_Karelia_HG


    Target: Austrian
    Distance: 3.3691% / 0.03369105
    44.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    39.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    9.8 WHG
    6.8 RUS_Karelia_HG


    Target: German_East:German_East2
    Distance: 5.0584% / 0.05058352
    38.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    38.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    12.8 RUS_Karelia_HG
    10.2 WHG


    Target: Polish:Polish16
    Distance: 4.6207% / 0.04620698
    37.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    28.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    24.4 RUS_Karelia_HG
    9.8 WHG


    Target: Finnish
    Distance: 4.6579% / 0.04657938
    28.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    24.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    22.4 RUS_Chalmny-Varre
    14.8 RUS_Karelia_HG
    10.0 WHG


    Target: Russian_Kostroma
    Distance: 4.8458% / 0.04845772
    26.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    25.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    24.8 RUS_Chalmny-Varre
    17.2 RUS_Karelia_HG
    5.6 WHG

  3. #828
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    And there are articles about it

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6258758/






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  4. #829
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    Country: Spain



    Target: Karlos_scaled
    Distance: 3.5582% / 0.03558177
    52.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    29.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    13.6 WHG
    4.8 MAR_Iberomaurusian



    Distance to: Karlos_scaled
    0.15460988 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    0.16254028 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic:I1955
    0.20925401 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    0.21495426 RUS_Chalmny-Varre
    0.21767936 Baltic_LTU_Narva
    0.24514662 Levant_Natufian:I0861
    0.27601192 GEO_CHG:KK1
    0.31162467 RUS_Karelia_HG:I0211
    0.33447648 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2:I11466
    0.34846322 WHG
    0.44053493 MAR_Iberomaurusian
    0.62307017 Nganassan
    0.65003453 ETH_4500BP
    0.70986147 Dinka
    0.72513737 Gambian
    0.75180926 Yoruba
    0.84651444 Khomani_San

  5. #830
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    Target: Karlos_scaled
    Distance: 3.5582% / 0.03558177
    52.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    29.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    13.6 WHG
    4.8 MAR_Iberomaurusian



    Distance to: Karlos_scaled
    0.15460988 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    0.16254028 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic:I1955
    0.20925401 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    0.21495426 RUS_Chalmny-Varre
    0.21767936 Baltic_LTU_Narva
    0.24514662 Levant_Natufian:I0861
    0.27601192 GEO_CHG:KK1
    0.31162467 RUS_Karelia_HG:I0211
    0.33447648 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2:I11466
    0.34846322 WHG
    0.44053493 MAR_Iberomaurusian
    0.62307017 Nganassan
    0.65003453 ETH_4500BP
    0.70986147 Dinka
    0.72513737 Gambian
    0.75180926 Yoruba
    0.84651444 Khomani_San
    Cool, quite within the Iberian average.






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    Target: Portuguese:EBC_Portugal1
    Distance: 3.3991% / 0.03399058
    52.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    31.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    11.0 WHG
    5.4 MAR_Iberomaurusian


    Target: Spanish_Cataluna:HG01536
    Distance: 3.1522% / 0.03152243
    52.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    29.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    15.0 WHG
    1.4 MAR_Iberomaurusian
    0.6 Yoruba
    0.4 RUS_Chalmny-Varre



    Target: Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon:HG01501
    Distance: 3.8944% / 0.03894358
    51.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    29.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    12.4 WHG
    6.2 MAR_Iberomaurusian
    1.0 RUS_Chalmny-Varre

  6. #831
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    Which application is used for these analyses?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ack View Post
    Thank you for the link to the study. In the admixture proportions in Fig. 4 you can clearly see that no modern European people have significant extra-EHG, not even the Saami, but only the Mansi. Instead Lithuanians have additional WHG ancestry, which was proven by various studies and models. Its all in Yamnaya and the Siberian ancestry is a separate component.
    And even if there would be traces of extra-EHG, its nowhere close to the numbers you posted.

  8. #833
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Thank you for the link to the study. In the admixture proportions in Fig. 4 you can clearly see that no modern European people have significant extra-EHG, not even the Saami, but only the Mansi. Instead Lithuanians have additional WHG ancestry, which was proven by various studies and models. Its all in Yamnaya and the Siberian ancestry is a separate component.
    And even if there would be traces of extra-EHG, its nowhere close to the numbers you posted.
    Wrong. Eastern Europe was more inhabited by EHG than western Europe when Yamnaya arrived. Both Karelia HG and Scandinavia HG had an additional mixture of ANE and EHG that WHG did not have. The distinction between WHG and EHG is based on this.






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  9. #834
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ack View Post
    Wrong. Eastern Europe was more inhabited by EHG than western Europe when Yamnaya arrived. Both Karelia HG and Scandinavia HG had an additional mixture of ANE and EHG that WHG did not have. The distinction between WHG and EHG is based on this.
    But their contribution to modern population is very low, that's what I meant.

  10. #835
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    But their contribution to modern population is very low, that's what I meant.
    It is far from small. Compare Finland and Poland with Norway for example:


    Target: Finnish
    Distance: 5.1847% / 0.05184738


    30.6Anatolia_Barcin_N
    30.0Yamnaya_RUS_Samara27.0
    RUS_Karelia_HG 29
    WHG 9.8
    Nganassan 2.6

    Target: Polish:Polish16
    Distance: 4.6207% / 0.04620698
    37.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    28.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    24.4 RUS_Karelia_HG
    9.8 WHG

    Target: Norwegian
    Distance: 4.8877% / 0.04887723
    46.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    35.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    13.2 WHG
    5.0 RUS_Karelia_HG

    Did you see the big difference? The difference gets even bigger when we include Irish in the comparison

    Target: Irish
    Distance: 4.9374% / 0.04937387
    49.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    36.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    13.8 WHG

    No EHG in Ireland. But the closer you get to Finland and Eastern Europe, the more EHG.

    Finns are closer to Poles than Norwegians for the same reason.







    Distance to: Finnish
    0.05559852 Polish:Polish16
    0.06710421 Norwegian

    Target: Finnish
    Distance: 5.3291% / 0.05329137


    72.0 Polish
    28.0 Norwegian

  11. #836
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    K11 10 kybp WHG-EHG calculator



    Target: Karlos_scaled
    Distance: 4.4356% / 0.04435563
    56.4 ENF=Anatolia_Barcin_N
    17.6 EHG=RUS_Karelia_HG
    11.6 WHG=BEL_Loschbour
    10.4 CHG=GEO_CHG
    4.0 Iberomaurusian=MAR_Iberomaurusian

    Distance to: Karlos_scaled
    0.15460988 ENF=Anatolia_Barcin_N
    0.25164638 Natufian=Levant_Natufian
    0.27601192 CHG=GEO_CHG
    0.30460105 EHG=RUS_Karelia_HG
    0.38439700 WHG=BEL_Loschbour
    0.44053493 Iberomaurusian=MAR_Iberomaurusian
    0.46273894 S_Asian_HG=Jarawa
    0.52709506 Amerind=RUS_Kolyma_Meso
    0.61422156 EA=RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
    0.75180926 SSA=Yoruba
    0.81082711 OHG=Papuan

  12. #837
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    Iberomaurusian=MAR_Iberomaurusian,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534

    Dick's Ancient euro calculator


    Target: Iberomaurusian=MAR_Iberomaurusian
    Distance: 44.4764% / 0.44476351
    68.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    32.0 Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL


    Distance to: Iberomaurusian=MAR_Iberomaurusian
    0.45116856 Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1100
    0.45237422 Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1103
    0.45792445 Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1098
    0.45823374 Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1102
    0.45989922 Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1101
    0.46005112 Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0736
    0.46022091 Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1099
    0.46130547 UKR_Globular_Amphora:ILK002
    0.46184667 Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1581
    0.46210075 Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0745
    0.46292371 Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1583
    0.46425503 Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0723
    0.46482203 Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1580
    0.46694556 Corded_Ware_CZE_o:I7272
    0.46743531 UKR_Globular_Amphora:ILK001
    0.46757165 Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0744
    0.46792569 Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1096
    0.46847647 Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0708
    0.46851572 Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0724
    0.46916241 Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0746
    0.46954008 Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0709
    0.46999654 POL_Globular_Amphora:N38
    0.47001374 Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1097
    0.47063025 Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0707
    0.47077965 POL_Globular_Amphora:I2433


    For some reason the Spanish get it, but I do not think it is direct, but some correspondence between the two.

    With modern populations:


    Target: Iberomaurusian=MAR_Iberomaurusian
    Distance: 20.3896% / 0.20389557
    89.8 Berber_MAR_TIZ
    10.2 Dinka


    Berber_MAR_TIZ,-0.1025221,0.131656,-0.0023166,-0.0759511,0.0310606,-0.0356582,-0.0335058,0.012016,0.0766524,0.0315659,0.0088154,-0.0092596,0.0247308,-0.0204174,0.0203483,-0.0157212,0.0001119,-0.0288305,-0.0534217,0.0119165,-0.0208205,-0.0511129,0.0307414,-0.0051899,0.0074671



    Target: Berber_MAR_TIZ
    Distance: 0.8225% / 0.00822504
    24.2 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
    18.2 MAR_Taforalt
    15.2 MAR_EN
    10.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    9.4 ITA_Sardinia_C_o
    7.6 TZA_Pemba_600BP
    5.6 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
    3.6 ZAF_400BP
    3.4 GRC_Peloponnese_N
    1.4 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
    1.2 HUN_Tisza_LN


    Distance to: Berber_MAR_TIZ
    0.05228477 ITA_Sardinia_C_o:I15940
    0.05741548 Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun012
    0.06081893 Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun002
    0.06347391 Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun011
    0.07770163 Iberia_Central_CA_Afr:I4246
    0.08749982 Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun008
    0.10165776 Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun005
    0.14810754 ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL011
    0.14905246 MAR_LN:KEB.4
    0.15020847 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR132
    0.17410771 Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I8146
    0.17875041 MAR_Taforalt:TAF009
    0.18303960 ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL010
    0.18310165 ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL006
    0.19465325 Levant_Natufian:I0861
    0.19508017 MAR_EN:IAM.7
    0.19564583 EGY_Late_Period:JK2134
    0.19652484 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR80
    0.19689482 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N:I12534
    0.19838303 Levant_Natufian:I1072
    0.19863519 EGY_Hellenistic:JK2888
    0.19916864 Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE:I3575
    0.19952069 Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE:I3980
    0.20080181 EGY_Late_Period:JK2911
    0.20125878 Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I7425

    Ion Basecul's G25 Calculator

    Target: Berber_MAR_TIZ
    Distance: 24.6184% / 0.24618441
    54.6 South_European
    39.2 Southeast_European
    6.2 Steppic


    Distance to: Berber_MAR_TIZ
    0.24899825 Southeast_European:IND_Roopkund_B_I3348
    0.25011976 South_European:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR58
    0.25266943 Southeast_European:IND_Roopkund_B_I3345
    0.25406532 South_European:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR60
    0.25490483 South_European:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR56
    0.25518079 South_European:ITA_Collegno_MA_CL121
    0.25523316 Southeast_European:IND_Roopkund_B_I3403
    0.25655182 South_European:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1283
    0.25659391 Southeast_European:IND_Roopkund_B_I2869
    0.25830956 Southeast_European:IND_Roopkund_B_I3405
    0.25914988 South_European:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR59
    0.26058370 South_European:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1285
    0.26091934 Southwest_European:Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE_I10853
    0.26190764 Southwest_European:Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE_I10895
    0.26254655 South_European:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR57
    0.26274597 Southwest_European:Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE_I10892
    0.26324605 Southeast_European:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2_I820 8
    0.26376371 Southeast_European:IND_Roopkund_B_I3404
    0.26636942 Southwest_European:Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE_I10852
    0.26709939 Southeast_European:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2_I821 5
    0.27597788 Southeast_European:IND_Roopkund_B_I6936
    0.28483765 North_Caucasus:RUS_Alan_MA_DA160
    0.28727461 North_Caucasus:RUS_Alan_MA_DA162
    0.29044983 Anatolian:Ottoman_MA2196
    0.29308376 East_European:UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky_MJ37

  13. #838
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Carlos, please change your map to reflect reality.


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    I want not to discuss the percentages in detail but I would find weird if N-E European had not an extra EHG in them: do notive I don't look for competition with anybody here.
    But in East-Baltic/Estoina regions there have been the Comb Ware C (CCC?) came from East, very EHGlike in autosomes and physically slightly 'pre-mongoloid'; I would bet they introduiced some Y-N1c subclades and maybe spoke already some kind of proto-Uralic dialects. The CWC had introduced their kind of EHG comprised in the 'Steppics' kit of DNA, and surely some IEan, rather proto-satem (no proof here), I doubt they ahve erased completely the CCC demic heritage, they have not been able to erase their Y lineages at all. So could we imagine the whole EHGlike DNA among N-E Europeans is only from this Steppic admixture? I don't think so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I want not to discuss the percentages in detail but I would find weird if N-E European had not an extra EHG in them: do notive I don't look for competition with anybody here.
    But in East-Baltic/Estoina regions there have been the Comb Ware C (CCC?) came from East, very EHGlike in autosomes and physically slightly 'pre-mongoloid'; I would bet they introduiced some Y-N1c subclades and maybe spoke already some kind of proto-Uralic dialects. The CWC had introduced their kind of EHG comprised in the 'Steppics' kit of DNA, and surely some IEan, rather proto-satem (no proof here), I doubt they ahve erased completely the CCC demic heritage, they have not been able to erase their Y lineages at all. So could we imagine the whole EHGlike DNA among N-E Europeans is only from this Steppic admixture? I don't think so.
    That's how I see it as well. I've been saying for a long time that there was a reservoir of hunter-gatherer ancestry in the North East which was incorporated into the IE when they arrived. Depending on the area there would have been more WHG or EHG.

    Some calculators may not see it clearly because of the EHG in the IE, although blended with CHG/Iran Neo like ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    When they came to Iberia, they were mixed already, not 100 steppe. So for Iberia the relative impact of the BB takeover was truly huge.

    @Ack: There is no such strong EHG component independent of steppe ancestry in NE Europe. There must be something wrong with your model.
    I doubt "huge" is the proper adjective given that Iberians today in some analyses have only 25% steppe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I doubt "huge" is the proper adjective given that Iberians today in some analyses have only 25% steppe.
    Before the BB came in the local population was zero steppe and the BB themselves, even in many parts of Central Europe, had no such high steppe ancestry percentage to begin with. If you check the Southern French BB which were the source, you will see that they are even lower and in later times Iberians got admixture from the North, but also from the South with less steppe. If taking everything in account, you end up with roughly half the population being replaced autosomally and 95 plus percent on the paternal side, I'd say that's huge.
    Its not about "steppe ancestry" but Bell Beaker ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Before the BB came in the local population was zero steppe and the BB themselves, even in many parts of Central Europe, had no such high steppe ancestry percentage to begin with. If you check the Southern French BB which were the source, you will see that they are even lower and in later times Iberians got admixture from the North, but also from the South with less steppe. If taking everything in account, you end up with roughly half the population being replaced autosomally and 95 plus percent on the paternal side, I'd say that's huge.
    Its not about "steppe ancestry" but Bell Beaker ancestry.
    I'm quite aware of the difference, thank you.

    We've managed to read all the relevant papers and analyze them, and in the process came to conclusions much more often correct than is the case on other sites, so lose the superior, snarky attitude if you please.





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    Angela, just assume BB Germany would be a good source, what I wouldn't take as a given, this still means, even with the numbers you provided, that we deal with a replacement rate of about 40 percent. To me that is "huge". I'm writing that with old models in mind, which considered "elite dominance" scenarios plausible which would have resulted in less than 20 percent replacement rate. We are far from that.

    What's even more, we deal with a wave-like phenomenon, in which one wave took local women, consolidated its position, then moved on and so forth. This means we have regionally much higher or lower impacts depending on whether we deal with relatively unmixed or already locally rooted mixed representatives. Also, I doubt those coming in were all like "German Beakers", but more Neolithic shifted already. This means we deal with 40-50 percent replacement rate most likely, let's see. Wasn't saying anything else and don't wanted to be "snarky", but probably that's just my "communication style". Heard that before...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Angela, just assume BB Germany would be a good source, what I wouldn't take as a given, this still means, even with the numbers you provided, that we deal with a replacement rate of about 40 percent. To me that is "huge". I'm writing that with old models in mind, which considered "elite dominance" scenarios plausible which would have resulted in less than 20 percent replacement rate. We are far from that.

    What's even more, we deal with a wave-like phenomenon, in which one wave took local women, consolidated its position, then moved on and so forth. This means we have regionally much higher or lower impacts depending on whether we deal with relatively unmixed or already locally rooted mixed representatives. Also, I doubt those coming in were all like "German Beakers", but more Neolithic shifted already. This means we deal with 40-50 percent replacement rate most likely, let's see. Wasn't saying anything else and don't wanted to be "snarky", but probably that's just my "communication style". Heard that before...
    Riverman, those are the charts from Olalde et al. Until we have more proximate samples for the people who entered Iberia from Central Europe, those are the numbers I'll use. Anything else is just speculation.

    You're welcome to disagree.

    You're also welcome to disagree as to whether 40% is HUGE. I would reserve it for situations like Great Britain, or certain parts of northeastern Europe.

    That's all I meant.

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    Reading the thread as a B RH negative guy i am feeling like a real steppe warrior right now.

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