All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago

[Olympus Mons]

Well, the oldest is in Serbia - no questions asked. Shortly followed by Northern Mesopotamia. Also, did you see the post of mine Angela deleted?

Humm, partly so.
a. yes Vinca is reference at 5500 BC but not sure how good the carbon dating is. - Not saying is wrong. But would like to read something about the carbon dating used.
b. In Shulaveri (Aratashen part in Armenia) the copper and crucibles found is always referred as fists half of 6th Millenium, so don't really know what exact date.
c. In Shulaveri places such as Khramis Didi gora, we have the smelting of arsenical copper and the production of copper awls is a fact. Carbon dating of those settlements do not go much further than 5500 BC (those were places that ended earlier, just like the ones referenced in Armenia).

d . Its reference by me in my Shulaverian Hypothesis paper (https://shulaveri2bellbeaker.blogs.sapo.pt/) that the Copper awl found in tell tsaf (Israel 4600BC) is in fact from Aruclho (one of the longest shulaveri settlements that ended by 5400 BC).

e. One last note. the oldest copper found in North Caucasus is at the Pr**icked pearl culture (5th Millenium BC), which is assumed to be of south caucasus origin. Any guess form what culture?

 

[halfalp]

Humm, partly so.
a. yes Vinca is reference at 5500 BC but not sure how good the carbon dating is. - Not saying is wrong. But would like to read something about the carbon dating used.
b. In Shulaveri (Aratashen part in Armenia) the copper found is always referred as fists half of 6th Millenium, so don't really know what exact date.
c. In Shulaveri places such as Khramis Didi gora, we have the smelting of arsenical copper and the production of copper awls is a fact. Carbon dating of those settlements do not go much further than 5500 BC (those were places that ended earlier, just like the ones referenced in Armenia).
d. One last note. the oldest copper found in North Caucasus is at the Pr**icked pearl culture, which is assumed to be of south caucasus origin. Any guess form what culture?

I know that's gonna sound 100% european centrist and out subject... but, i think Middle-East needs more carbon dating use, than europe. I remember the Goga user here, wich were fom Kurd ancestry and saying being R1a*, i bet he was absolutely not, but he didn't test completely his y-dna.

 

[Angela]

Wtf is that 10'000BC metallurgy in the Mesopotamia? It's very new to me... As far as Nordicism, i'm gonna pass, because i'm more likely look like their hated Jews physically than themselves so...

More seriously, the oldest " Copper " artifact that we have from humanity [ wich is also the oldest metal to be worked because it can be modeled cold ] are from Serbia and Northern Mesopotamia from the same time frame.

Well, if you read the papers you would know, wouldn't you?

Another one for you:
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...earches-in-Iran.pdf?origin=publication_detail

If you have contrary data I'm sure the academics would be thrilled to be alerted to it.

 

[halfalp]

Well, if you read the papers you would know, wouldn't you?

Another one for you:
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...earches-in-Iran.pdf?origin=publication_detail

If you have contrary data I'm sure the academics would be thrilled to be alerted to it.

LOL, yes i have nothing to say else.

 

[Angela]

Well, the oldest is in Serbia - no questions asked. Shortly followed by Northern Mesopotamia. Also, did you see the post of mine Angela deleted?

No statement devoid of date and citation is going to be persuasive. Do you really need to be reminded of that fact.

I would suggest you keep in mind the various phases of metallurgy and the dating as made clear in the papers I cited. Do read them.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

No statement devoid of date and citation is going to be persuasive. Do you really need to be reminded of that fact.

I would suggest you keep in mind the various phases of metallurgy and the dating as made clear in the papers I cited. Do read them.

The conclusion of that Nezafati paper (which journal does it belong to?) suggests that it is mostly speculation. Here is a peer-reviewed paper from 2010 claiming what is already known if you trust Wikipedia, Google and probably about 80% of all sources online:

http://sci-hub.tw/https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440310001986?via=ihub

Colin Renfrew made a great case for this almost 50 years ago, as here:

http://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1017/S0079497X00013396

The conclusions of both are ultimately for a first development in the Balkans, and later in the Near East - but I tend to think it would have been driven by migration (due to other factors, such as the immense similarity between aspects of Vincan and Ubaidian culture, both at opposite ends of the Balkano-Asian region).

Sci-hub is immensely useful, by the way - I have no idea why papers are paywalled in the first place.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

No statement devoid of date and citation is going to be persuasive. Do you really need to be reminded of that fact.

I would suggest you keep in mind the various phases of metallurgy and the dating as made clear in the papers I cited. Do read them.

This paper you provided (https://www.academia.edu/12054307/From_Metallurgy_to_Bronze_Age_Civilizations_-_The_Synthetic_Theory) looks pretty solid, so I'll have to give it a read. I remember Tomenable referencing it, and I have a lot of respect for most of his ideas, which I basically steal.

Potentially, there could be some circumstantial evidence showing a West Asian origin of copper metallurgy, but the fact remains (unless you go into conspiracy mode) the earliest dated finds of copper metallurgy are in the Balkans - and I've given a peer-reviewed paper from a respected journal backing that up. It would take a lot, I think, to overrule that, but I'll keep an open mind when reading that paper.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

No statement devoid of date and citation is going to be persuasive. Do you really need to be reminded of that fact.

I would suggest you keep in mind the various phases of metallurgy and the dating as made clear in the papers I cited. Do read them.

Lol that Amzallag paper describes (furnace) metallurgy as originating in the Levant, with these Levantines then going on to civilise the rest of the world in their travels for ore. He's an Israeli supremacist!

From looking at all your papers and others online, it seems that native metallurgy perhaps began in the Near East, but that isn't really true metallurgy (which would be smelting) - the oldest evidence of which for copper dates back to the Balkans. Tin and lead smelting is extremely rudimentary, and was of practically no historical significance.

This is a good summary, and not fabricated by European Nordicists :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smelting#History

 

[markod]

This is without a doubt the earliest example of copper metallurgy:

Shanidar Cave, Iraq, 9500 B.C.

Anatolian copper smelting also predates Vinča.

Edit: Apparently it doesn't.

 

[Pip]

So, if R1b, would the Hittites and Anatolian Indo-Europeans generally have been primarily L51, Z2103, PF7562, V88, a mixture or some other shrivelled or extinct branch?

 

[markod]

So, if R1b, would the Hittites and Anatolian Indo-Europeans generally have been primarily L51, Z2103, PF7562, V88, a mixture or some other shrivelled or extinct branch?

Isn't R1b relatively rare where Anatolian languages were spoken? Like the entire southern half of Anatolia. R1b looks more northern in present day Turkey.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

This is without a doubt the earliest example of copper metallurgy:

Shanidar Cave, Iraq, 9500 B.C.

Anatolian copper smelting also predates Vinča.

If it is that early it is definitely native metallurgy, which is basically just like finding a bunch of pure mineral copper and digging it out. No smelting involved.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_copper

As for Anatolian copper smelting preceding Vinca - what's your source? Where was this and when was it dated to? I say that because from what I have seen, it is incredibly obvious that the earliest dated find was in the Balkans. Too many peer-reviewed sources corroborate on this point. In this Wikipedia article, which I've already linked, a copper mace head from Anatolia from around the same time or later than Vinca was found, yet it was discovered to have simply been native copper hammered out into the appropriate shape.

 

[Angela]

I won't dwell on it as I can see why it would be upsetting to Angela, so I'll put myself above these childish games. But she does need to realise when her moderation becomes more personal than anything else.

The only one who is getting personal here is you.



" The oldest copper ornament dates back to around 8700 B.C. and it was found in present-day northern Iraq."
http://factsanddetails.com/world/cat56/sub362/item1495.html



All of that said, it's very true that depending on the type of metallurgy being discussed there was some early metallurgy in the Balkans. Whether that was autochthonous, or, given the documented movement from Anatolia to the Balkans is subject to debate.

Regardless, the Bronze metallurgy which was for so often held by proponents of the steppe theory that Bronze metallurgy was "invented" on the steppe plains of far eastern Europe is incorrect. Every paper I have seen traces it to the Caucasus. Some of the earliest steppe migrations, those of Corded Ware, barely had copper, let alone Bronze. You should know this, so please don't make me waste more time finding the papers when they've been posted here again and again.

You can find a very detailed discussion and sites to relevant papers, including ones by David Anthony, in this very good thread right here at Eupedia.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-30625.html

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

So, if R1b, would the Hittites and Anatolian Indo-Europeans generally have been primarily L51, Z2103, PF7562, V88, a mixture or some other shrivelled or extinct branch?

Probably associated with Z2103.

 

[halfalp]

This is without a doubt the earliest example of copper metallurgy:

Shanidar Cave, Iraq, 9500 B.C.

Anatolian copper smelting also predates Vinča.

Edit: Apparently it doesn't.

It might be if it's 9500BC.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

The only one who is getting personal here is you.

I am waiting for documentary evidence for your claims. If you expect unsupported claims in contradiction to dated finds and academic thinking to be accepted without comment, you are on the wrong site.

" The oldest copper ornament dates back to around 8700 B.C. and it was found in present-day northern Iraq."
http://factsanddetails.com/world/cat56/sub362/item1495.html



All of that said, it's very true that depending on the type of metallurgy being discussed there was some early metallurgy in the Balkans. Whether that was autochthonous, or, given the documented movement from Anatolia to the Balkans is subject to debate.

Regardless, the Bronze metallurgy which was for so often held by proponents of the steppe theory that Bronze metallurgy was "invented" on the steppe plains of far eastern Europe is incorrect. Every paper I have seen traces it to the Caucasus. Some of the earliest steppe migrations, those of Corded Ware, barely had copper, let alone Bronze. You should know this, so please don't make me waste more time finding the papers when they've been posted here again and again.

You can find a very detailed discussion and sites to relevant papers, including ones by David Anthony, in this very good thread right here at Eupedia.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-30625.html

I never claimed Bronze metallurgy was invented on the Steppe, so that's a strawman. Also, I associate metallurgy (at the very least, copper metallurgy - and if you're being pedantic I'd have to say copper smelting, as only smelting is "true" metallurgy) with R1b-M269 and later (when it mutated) L23 folk, so Corded Ware is hardly relevant (even though they knew how to smelt copper).

That copper ornament, as mentioned, is from native copper. It is basically the same as finding mineral gold in a rock, and chiselling it out. It is extremely different to copper smelting, the earliest evidence of which dates back to the Balkans. I don't know why you don't want to believe it, but the evidence is overwhelming. Two papers have already been linked in this thread giving a specific place and date (below - though there are far more than two out there, as this is a consensus among those active in the field), what do you have to back up your claim? Do you have any papers providing evidence for copper smelting at an earlier date in West Asia?

http://sci-hub.tw/https://www.scienc...986?via%3Dihub

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228417432_A_Chalcolithic_Error_Rebuttal_to_Amzallag_2009

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

It might be if it's 9500BC.

It isn't copper smelting. It is just taking already basically pure metal from out of a rock.

More importantly, it shows thousands of years between simple native metallurgy and proper smelting - which shows that it was a real technological milestone. Now, perhaps it is wrong of me to associate it with R1b M269/L23, but it just definitely began in the Balkans.

 

[Pip]

Probably associated with Z2103.

That was my initial thought, but Eastern Z2103 looks to have been only Armenia and southwards until relatively recently.

I wondered perhaps PF7562 - the only successful branch of M269 that did not stem from L23. The other branches of R1b look too small and distant to have derived from the Hittites and their close Anatolian relatives.

 

[halfalp]

It isn't copper smelting. It is just taking already basically pure metal from out of a rock.

More importantly, it shows thousands of years between simple native metallurgy and proper smelting - which shows that it was a real technological milestone. Now, perhaps it is wrong of me to associate it with R1b M269/L23, but it just definitely began in the Balkans.

Copper can be modeled cold in any form, but it's still metallurgy for me, the idea is still there, at this point the people might search for metal more than rock to " model ".

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Copper can be modeled cold in any form, but it's still metallurgy for me, the idea is still there, at this point the people might search for metal more than rock to " model ".

The point is that to make lots of copper products, you would basically need to learn smelting, as copper usually occurs in a non-native form (rarely in a native form). That is why native copper metallurgy was of little historical significant compared to smelting. The Copper age did not begin 12,000 years ago for a reason you know...