All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago

Not the same, the paper presented R1b men without steppe admixture, but as they were R1b they came from the steppes, just a circular argument used frequently by steppists and Gimbutas' religion worshippers.

The change to R1b certainly took place.

However, as to autosomal admixture, your assertion is true only insofar as their ADMIXTURE analysis is concerned.

When they ran Chromopainter/Finestructure, this was their finding:

"Consistent with this, when comparing Portuguese Neolithic to Bronze Age samples, the former presented an excess of haplotype donation to Sardinian and Spanish (p = 0.017). Northern/eastern ancestry is evident in the Bronze Age, with significantly increased enrichment in Chuvash, Orcadian (p = 0.017), Lezgin and Irish (p = 0.033). However, this shift from southern to northern affinity is markedly weaker than that observed between Neolithic and Bronze Age genomes in Ireland, Scandinavia, Hungary and Central Europe. These findings suggest detectable, but comparatively modest, Steppe-related introgression present at the Portuguese Bronze Age."

7QbnU4O.png
[/IMG]

They show the same movement in PCA form.

Second of all, this is the situation in one area of Portugal in the Middle Bronze Age. As even their ADMIXTURE analysis makes clear, the steppe admixture is present in modern Spaniards and Portuguese.

If the new Olalde paper is correct, and there was a shift to 40% autosomal steppe admixture in Spain, and the 20 to a maximum of 20% today, then subsequent migrations must have cut into that percentage.
 
to what 3rd millenium BC people do they refer to?
afaik chalcolithic like Los Millares were late 4th millenium BC, and El Argar was +/- 2000 BC
when will the 'new Olalde' paper be published?

The fourteen samples they examined ranged from the Middle Neolithic (4200-3500 BC) to the Middle Bronze Age (1740-1430 BC).

This is the archaeological information. They're not exactly what I would call optimal samples.

"
1.2.1 Cova da Moura

Cova da Moura is a natural cave, in which human remains were buried, located in the Sizandro River Valley, Estremadura. The site was discovered and excavated in the 1930s [3]. Radiocarbon dates obtained from human remains are as follows: 2620 to 2210 cal BC (@ 95.4%, 3950+60 BP, UBAR-536); 3635 to 3372 cal BC (@ 95.4%, 4715+50, UBAR-593) (Silva, 2002). Burial may have continued for as long as 1000 years [4] but appears to have been concentrated in the Late Neolithic and Copper Age, when exceptionally rich and exotic grave goods (jet, variscite and ivory) were also deposited [5]. The archaeological deposits were very disturbed and the human bones were disarticulated. Osteological analysis obtained a minimum number of individuals (MNI) of 90, including adults and non-adults [4]. Analysis of stable and strontium isotopes were carried out to establish dietary and mobility patterns [5,6]. 4 of the 12 individuals sampled spent at least their early lives somewhere other than the region around Cova da Moura. We analysed CM364 and CM96B."

"1.2.2 Dolmen de Ansião


The site of the Dolmen of Ansião is located in the mountainous area of the Alta Estremadura. It was discovered and excavated during road construction in the late nineteenth century. The artefacts [7] and a single radiocarbon date from a human femur, 3635 to 3372 cal BC (@ 95.4%, 4640±90 BP, Sac- 1559) [4] suggest a Late Neolithic date. The remains have been moved several times and the assemblage is highly commingled and fragmented. A recent osteological assessment [4] ascertained an MNI of 37, with 23 adults of both sexes and 14 subadults of various ages. Several injuries includingtwo probable projectile injuries and six depressed cranial fractures were also noted. One (adult) petrous (DA96B) was included in this study.

1.2.3 Monte Canelas


The Monte Canelas necropolis is located in the southern Algarve region of Portugal, only c.700 m north-northwest of the great Alcalar necropolis. There are at least four hypogea at Monte Canelas [8]. The remains analysed for this project were from Hypogeum 1. Hypogeum 1 consists of two interconnected rock cut chambers, in which, although the majority of remains were commingled, it was possible to identify two phases of deposition, separated by a partial collapse of the chambers [9]. Osteological analysis identified a total MNI of 171 [10,11]. The first phase occurred in the last quarter of the 4th Millennium BC and included a MNI of 147 individuals among which five burials survived ‘in-situ’. They were interred in individual cells, laid in the fetal position with grave goods, including a silex blade, an axe, stone bead necklaces and bone pins [10,12]. The second phase, or reuse, occurred at the end of the 3rd or beginning of the 2nd Millennium BC. One sample from Hypogeum 1 was included in this study, inhumation 337 (3326-2888 cal BC @ 95.4%,, 4370±60 BP, OxA-5514; 2926-2680 cal BC @ 95.4%, 4250+40 BP, Beta-290366) [8,10,13]. This was the only ‘in-situ’ burial in the northern chamber and belonged to an elderly female, approximately 60 years of age at death, who was buried with a silex blade, two bone pins and a bead. Osteological analysis noted significant dental wear, degenerative lesions on her vertebrae, signs of scoliosis and a small osteoma in the occipital bone [10,11]. Only one sample was sequenced (MC337A).

1.2.4 Cabeço da Arruda I

Cabeço da Arruda I was a probable rock-cut tomb in Torres Vedras, that was partially destroyed upon discovery in the 1930s [2,14]. The artefacts suggest the tomb was used between the second half of the fourth and the first part of the third millennia BC. A radiocarbon date obtained from a human long bone returned a date of 3330 to 2885 cal BC (@ 95.4%, 4370 ± 70 BP, Beta – 123363) (Silva, 2002). The human remains were highly commingled and fragmented. Osteological analyses identified an MNI of 19, that included both sexes and adults and non-adults. A depressed fracture, with evidence of healing, was noted on one of the adult skulls [2,14]. From this site we obtained sequence data from CA117 and CA122.

1.3 Bronze Age sites

1.3.1 Monte do Gato de Cima 3

Monte do Gato de Cima 3 is a Bronze Age cemetery near Serpa in the Beja district of Alentejo. It is part of a complex of monuments on a small hill (Outeiro Alto 2), that includes ceremonial and funerary remains from the Late Neolithic to the Bronze Age [15–17]. One adult male (MG104), from a circular pit burial, was sampled for this project. He was buried in the fetal position with an assemblage typical of the local Bronze Age, an “Atalaia” cup, a bowl and an ox limb. Two overlapping radiocarbon dates suggest a burial date in the late 17th or earlier 16th centuries BC: 1640 to 1430 cal BC (@ 95.4%, 3260+50, Sac 2573) and 1740 to 1545 cal BC (@ 95.4%, 3360±30, Beta-318379) [18]. Osteological analysis noted the unilateral absence of the left mandibular condyle, a probable sign of a traumatic event (Silva et al., in preparation).

1.3.2 Monte do Vale do Ouro 2


Monte do Vale do Ouro 2 is a Bronze Age site near Ferreira do Alentejo, in the Beja district. Excavation at Vale do Ouro 2 uncovered over seventy pits, two of which contained multiple inhumations. One individual (VO10207) was sampled for this project. The sampled individual was a 20-25 year old possible female found underneath two other burials, a 6-10 year old child and another adult, in a circular pit; all were inhumed in the fetal position [19]. Such inhumations in this region are typically Bronze Age.

1.3.3 Torre Velha 3

Torre Velha 3 is a multi-period site, dating from the Chalcolithic to Late Antiquity, near Serpa, Beja, in the Alentejo region [20–23]. The remains included 25 hypogea and several circular pits containing Middle Bronze Age burials. Most burials were inhumed in a flexed position and accompanied by grave goods, including pottery, metal artefacts and offerings of meat. Two individuals from Torre Velha 3 were sampled for this project, one from a hypogeum (TV32032) and the other from a circular pit (TV3831). The hypogeum contained two adult male burials, both over 35 years in age. This is unusual in Torre Velha, as it is the only case of two adults of the same sex being buried together. The sampled inhumation was also unusual for being buried in a supine position with flexed limbs; this may be because of his great size and the constricted size of the hypogeum. Osteological analysis identified excessive bone formation on the proximal end of his right femur, possibly signifying a slipped femoral capital epiphysis [24]. He was buried with a cow limb [25], a sample of which was dated to between 1750 and 1510 cal BC (@95.4%, 3340±50, Sac-2480). The circular pit contained an adult male and female. They were both buried prone, but with their limbs flexed and their heads to one side so that they faced one another, the male on his right and the female on her left. Although laid out in perfect anatomical position, several bones were missing [26] and some bones of both burials were coloured with ochre [27]. Grave goods included a carinated bowl, the remains of a lithic sickle and another ceramic vessel. The burial is dated to the Bronze Age by the typology of the artefacts [21].

All dates calibrated in Oxcal v4.2.4 [28] and calibrated with IntCal 13 [29] at 95.4% probability (2 Sigma). A map with the location of archaeological sites is shown in S1 Fig."
 
If the new Olalde paper is correct, and there was a shift to 40% autosomal steppe admixture in Spain, and the 20 to a maximum of 20% today, then subsequent migrations must have cut into that percentage.

Yes... probably J2a people originally from Kura-Araxes, coming west along the northern shores of the Mediterranean, parallel to Steppe men in the north - after a stopover in Greece, where they picked an extra share of EEF. They'd have brought their bull worship and "corrida" with them, and shifted Iberian PCA south again. (cf. Maciamo's J2a page)

Plus, of course, the Muslim invasions that occurred later.

Depending on the region of Spain you consider, in terms of y-dna, J2a and E1b1 alternately come second to R1b, far ahead of other haplogroups.
 
The fourteen samples they examined ranged from the Middle Neolithic (4200-3500 BC) to the Middle Bronze Age (1740-1430 BC).

This is the archaeological information. They're not exactly what I would call optimal samples.

"
1.2.1 Cova da Moura

Cova da Moura is a natural cave, in which human remains were buried, located in the Sizandro River Valley, Estremadura. The site was discovered and excavated in the 1930s [3]. Radiocarbon dates obtained from human remains are as follows: 2620 to 2210 cal BC (@ 95.4%, 3950+60 BP, UBAR-536); 3635 to 3372 cal BC (@ 95.4%, 4715+50, UBAR-593) (Silva, 2002). Burial may have continued for as long as 1000 years [4] but appears to have been concentrated in the Late Neolithic and Copper Age, when exceptionally rich and exotic grave goods (jet, variscite and ivory) were also deposited [5]. The archaeological deposits were very disturbed and the human bones were disarticulated. Osteological analysis obtained a minimum number of individuals (MNI) of 90, including adults and non-adults [4]. Analysis of stable and strontium isotopes were carried out to establish dietary and mobility patterns [5,6]. 4 of the 12 individuals sampled spent at least their early lives somewhere other than the region around Cova da Moura. We analysed CM364 and CM96B."

"1.2.2 Dolmen de Ansião


The site of the Dolmen of Ansião is located in the mountainous area of the Alta Estremadura. It was discovered and excavated during road construction in the late nineteenth century. The artefacts [7] and a single radiocarbon date from a human femur, 3635 to 3372 cal BC (@ 95.4%, 4640±90 BP, Sac- 1559) [4] suggest a Late Neolithic date. The remains have been moved several times and the assemblage is highly commingled and fragmented. A recent osteological assessment [4] ascertained an MNI of 37, with 23 adults of both sexes and 14 subadults of various ages. Several injuries includingtwo probable projectile injuries and six depressed cranial fractures were also noted. One (adult) petrous (DA96B) was included in this study.

1.2.3 Monte Canelas


The Monte Canelas necropolis is located in the southern Algarve region of Portugal, only c.700 m north-northwest of the great Alcalar necropolis. There are at least four hypogea at Monte Canelas [8]. The remains analysed for this project were from Hypogeum 1. Hypogeum 1 consists of two interconnected rock cut chambers, in which, although the majority of remains were commingled, it was possible to identify two phases of deposition, separated by a partial collapse of the chambers [9]. Osteological analysis identified a total MNI of 171 [10,11]. The first phase occurred in the last quarter of the 4th Millennium BC and included a MNI of 147 individuals among which five burials survived ‘in-situ’. They were interred in individual cells, laid in the fetal position with grave goods, including a silex blade, an axe, stone bead necklaces and bone pins [10,12]. The second phase, or reuse, occurred at the end of the 3rd or beginning of the 2nd Millennium BC. One sample from Hypogeum 1 was included in this study, inhumation 337 (3326-2888 cal BC @ 95.4%,, 4370±60 BP, OxA-5514; 2926-2680 cal BC @ 95.4%, 4250+40 BP, Beta-290366) [8,10,13]. This was the only ‘in-situ’ burial in the northern chamber and belonged to an elderly female, approximately 60 years of age at death, who was buried with a silex blade, two bone pins and a bead. Osteological analysis noted significant dental wear, degenerative lesions on her vertebrae, signs of scoliosis and a small osteoma in the occipital bone [10,11]. Only one sample was sequenced (MC337A).

1.2.4 Cabeço da Arruda I

Cabeço da Arruda I was a probable rock-cut tomb in Torres Vedras, that was partially destroyed upon discovery in the 1930s [2,14]. The artefacts suggest the tomb was used between the second half of the fourth and the first part of the third millennia BC. A radiocarbon date obtained from a human long bone returned a date of 3330 to 2885 cal BC (@ 95.4%, 4370 ± 70 BP, Beta – 123363) (Silva, 2002). The human remains were highly commingled and fragmented. Osteological analyses identified an MNI of 19, that included both sexes and adults and non-adults. A depressed fracture, with evidence of healing, was noted on one of the adult skulls [2,14]. From this site we obtained sequence data from CA117 and CA122.

1.3 Bronze Age sites

1.3.1 Monte do Gato de Cima 3

Monte do Gato de Cima 3 is a Bronze Age cemetery near Serpa in the Beja district of Alentejo. It is part of a complex of monuments on a small hill (Outeiro Alto 2), that includes ceremonial and funerary remains from the Late Neolithic to the Bronze Age [15–17]. One adult male (MG104), from a circular pit burial, was sampled for this project. He was buried in the fetal position with an assemblage typical of the local Bronze Age, an “Atalaia” cup, a bowl and an ox limb. Two overlapping radiocarbon dates suggest a burial date in the late 17th or earlier 16th centuries BC: 1640 to 1430 cal BC (@ 95.4%, 3260+50, Sac 2573) and 1740 to 1545 cal BC (@ 95.4%, 3360±30, Beta-318379) [18]. Osteological analysis noted the unilateral absence of the left mandibular condyle, a probable sign of a traumatic event (Silva et al., in preparation).

1.3.2 Monte do Vale do Ouro 2


Monte do Vale do Ouro 2 is a Bronze Age site near Ferreira do Alentejo, in the Beja district. Excavation at Vale do Ouro 2 uncovered over seventy pits, two of which contained multiple inhumations. One individual (VO10207) was sampled for this project. The sampled individual was a 20-25 year old possible female found underneath two other burials, a 6-10 year old child and another adult, in a circular pit; all were inhumed in the fetal position [19]. Such inhumations in this region are typically Bronze Age.

1.3.3 Torre Velha 3

Torre Velha 3 is a multi-period site, dating from the Chalcolithic to Late Antiquity, near Serpa, Beja, in the Alentejo region [20–23]. The remains included 25 hypogea and several circular pits containing Middle Bronze Age burials. Most burials were inhumed in a flexed position and accompanied by grave goods, including pottery, metal artefacts and offerings of meat. Two individuals from Torre Velha 3 were sampled for this project, one from a hypogeum (TV32032) and the other from a circular pit (TV3831). The hypogeum contained two adult male burials, both over 35 years in age. This is unusual in Torre Velha, as it is the only case of two adults of the same sex being buried together. The sampled inhumation was also unusual for being buried in a supine position with flexed limbs; this may be because of his great size and the constricted size of the hypogeum. Osteological analysis identified excessive bone formation on the proximal end of his right femur, possibly signifying a slipped femoral capital epiphysis [24]. He was buried with a cow limb [25], a sample of which was dated to between 1750 and 1510 cal BC (@95.4%, 3340±50, Sac-2480). The circular pit contained an adult male and female. They were both buried prone, but with their limbs flexed and their heads to one side so that they faced one another, the male on his right and the female on her left. Although laid out in perfect anatomical position, several bones were missing [26] and some bones of both burials were coloured with ochre [27]. Grave goods included a carinated bowl, the remains of a lithic sickle and another ceramic vessel. The burial is dated to the Bronze Age by the typology of the artefacts [21].

All dates calibrated in Oxcal v4.2.4 [28] and calibrated with IntCal 13 [29] at 95.4% probability (2 Sigma). A map with the location of archaeological sites is shown in S1 Fig."

All of them in Iberia's Far West - as suspected...
 
One source:

The new study, which analyzes the DNA of the remains of 153 individuals unearthed in the Iberian Peninsula, is pending publication in one of the most important scientific journals in the world. Reich and Olalde, both from Harvard University (USA), want to offer more details at the moment.The work has also involved the geneticist Carles Lalueza-Fox from the Biolo Institute Evolutive of Barcelona.

Confucius says, "Reviewing what you have learned and learning anew, you are fit to be a teacher."

If this study shows violence killed off the men and left the women and girls to be victimized, what about the previous studies of these proto-celts who had the same means, same background, same weapons, and same customs and motives who also replaced the male population elsewhere and had fill of the women and girls.

The mtDNA of the neolithic women shows up in the same native population today. Showing that some of the women did survive, while some who resisted their new husbands were killed.

These proto-celts had the morality of Beavis and Butthead, except they cared about the fellow proto-celts.
 
All of them in Iberia's Far West - as suspected...

It remains to be seen where the new Olalde samples were found.

These are the first Olalde samples, i.e. the Beaker paper:

YwxK7V8.png
[/IMG]

@Messier,
I don't know if the plague the Indo-Europeans carried played a role here as it did in Central Europe. Regardless, that wouldn't explain the female/male skew in terms of survival.

I suppose enslaving the men or heavily marginalizing them might have the same effect as outright killing them, but either way I find it very disturbing. I completely understand people's discomfort with this.
 
Could it be that religion (in the Old Testament sense) was the way of "wise people" to tame these abhorrent behaviours? Today we see the Old Testament as violent and cruel. But maybe seeing it with the eyes of the contemporaneous people, our view would be different.
 
Could it be that religion (in the Old Testament sense) was the way of "wise people" to tame these abhorrent behaviours? Today we see the Old Testament as violent and cruel. But maybe seeing it with the eyes of the contemporaneous people, our view would be different.

I Samuel 15: 2-3
2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.


Ezekiel 9: 4-11
4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord God! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?
9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The Lord hath forsaken the earth, and the Lord seeth not.
10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.
11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua 6:20-21&version=KJV

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy 2:32-35&version=KJV

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy 3:3-7&version=KJV

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=numbers 31:7-18&version=KJV
 
Could it be that religion (in the Old Testament sense) was the way of "wise people" to tame these abhorrent behaviours? Today we see the Old Testament as violent and cruel. But maybe seeing it with the eyes of the contemporaneous people, our view would be different.

A personal reaction to this... The ancient Hebrews were a comparatively small group of shepherds in a ruthless world. My view is that when Moses came down from the mountain with his "Thou shalt not kill", what he had in mind was to cement the group together, to make sure no rivalry inside the group would weaken it. He didn't intend to pacify the planet. In other words, moral rules and laws are meant to apply WITHIN a given community. In terms of foreign policy, religions most often serve as a cover for a political or empirialistic agenda.

Missionaries often come alongside soldiers, a bible in one hand, and a gun in the other. Clovis converted to Christianity for political reasons. Christopher Columbus converted, and enslaved. Medieval lords financed the building of churches, while waging incessant warfare on the neighboring barons. Think also of the Crusades, the Muslim expansion, 16C England, Reformation Europe... The watchword was: convert or die.

I've lived to see the former Yugoslavia ravaged by war along religious lines. Today, for each Israeli wounded, four Palestinians die. Even Gandhi's passive resistance was politically motivated. Chiites and Sunnites are also currently evidencing my point.

Religion as a peacemaker? Not buying... Men will be men. In the light of what we, supposedly civilized, advanced humans, can do today, I suspect that in the Bronze Age, moral consciousness and empathy can't have mattered much when it came to deciding what to do with the vanquished.
 
Native American tribe of the Incas, what decimated the population?:

One of the most comprehensive and thoroughly researched is that by Carlos Sempat Assadourian (1994). His thickly documented analysis based on an impressively wide range of sources blames the demographic disaster on three decades of near total war, excessive labor demands, wholesale environmental destruction, widespread famine, and sheer cruelty. Alien diseases are secondary factors, dating from 1558 with the first smallpox epidemic, once the population has already been halved.

http://users.pop.umn.edu/~rmccaa/aha2004/whypox.htm

Newsweek did an article titled: California Slaughter: The State-Sanctioned Genocide of Native Americans

an Indian girl raped and left to die somewhere near Mendocino; as many as 50 killed at Goose Lake; and, two months later, as many as 257 murdered at Grouse Creek, scores of them women and children. There were the four white ranchers who tracked down a band of Yana to a cave, butchering 30.

The debate over genocide in Native American history often turns to California, where the Native American population fell dramatically, from about 150,000 to 30,000, in the middle decades of the 19th century.

His book shows that the intent to rid California of its indigenous inhabitants was openly and repeatedly voiced, and that the means to achieve these ends were unambiguously brutal: mass deportations, slavery, massacres.

It was a widely held belief in 19th-century California that all of the Indians had to be exterminated. Reported the Daily Alta California, “Whites are becoming impressed with the belief that it will be absolutely necessary to exterminate the savages before they can labor much longer in the mines with security.”
The killing of Indians was performed for reasons that seem, today, pathetically feeble.

One of the killers sent a bill to California: $11,143. The state paid it nearly in full. Madley notes that of the $1.5 million that California spent on 24 different Indian-killing militia campaigns between 1850 and 1861, Congress paid the state back all but $200,000.

https://www.newsweek.com/2016/08/26/california-native-americans-genocide-490824.html

Though a bit different with not the whole male native population vanishing in the Conquest of the New World. And the Indian women staying with their family.

But in both cases the new conquerors wanted what the natives had and got it after the conquest. The conquest of Europe and the conquest of the Americas. The proto-celts did not set up reservations for the natives to live in or suffer the male natives to live among them as in Latin America with the natives. However, it was in both cases genocide.
 
Native American tribe of the Incas, what decimated the population?:



http://users.pop.umn.edu/~rmccaa/aha2004/whypox.htm

Newsweek did an article titled: California Slaughter: The State-Sanctioned Genocide of Native Americans



https://www.newsweek.com/2016/08/26/california-native-americans-genocide-490824.html

Though a bit different with not the whole male native population vanishing in the Conquest of the New World. And the Indian women staying with their family.

But in both cases the new conquerors wanted what the natives had and got it after the conquest. The conquest of Europe and the conquest of the Americas. The proto-celts did not set up reservations for the natives to live in or suffer the male natives to live among them as in Latin America with the natives. However, it was in both cases genocide.

Not my job as I'm not a mod, but that is virtually entirely irrelevant IN THE CONTEXT of paleogenetics, so let's not get sidetracked.
 
Welcome to the club. Two years ago I made a post on eurogenes with similar theory about migrations of R1b folks and posted a migration map.
My post from September 11, 2016

Main splits of R1b subclades occurred in Caucasus, Anatolia and Corsica.

http://s014.radikal.ru/i328/1609/e0/6e7b657881e5.jpg

Very interesting - I personally prefer my variant with R1b1a (at least) originating from the Balkans rather than Iran (lots of reasons - the origin and spread of the Swastika as a huge one, spread of metallurgy, more recently V88 being found amongst Balkan HGs, amongst others), but to post that at a time of Yamnaya-fetishism takes some pretty big balls (plus, we had no idea about V88 in the Mesolithic Balkans back then). Main point of contention is Gedrosian admix. being associated with R1b, and whether or not it's a pretty much fictitious descriptor, the correlation is still there in distinguishing from Eastern Europe. Perhaps R1b reached its Balkan breeding grounds from the Iran region (maybe more Eastern than that) in the first place?

For srs though, the Balkan and Ukraine region has GOT to be the breeding ground of R1b. At a minor stretch, it could involve Anatolia too.
 
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But looking at the low percentages, it could have been that all adult men were wiped out and some young boys survived. And of course, there would have been some pregnant women spared whose I2a and G2a offspring would have at least help preserve the original line.

Do we know for example how high the Proto-Basque population could have been at that point? And how large the group of R1b invaders was?

If anything, over time R1b would only increase due to elite status. I recall seeing speculation that the increase in Neolithic-like haplogroups in Iberia came at a later date, through immigration.
 
The blurb seems to be about the "new" Olalde paper, which I mentioned in the thread I started about the ISBA Conference. Here is the abstract:

"O–PSM–01The genetic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the last 8000 yearsI. Olalde1, N. Rohland1, S. Mallick1,2,3, N. Patterson2, M. Allentoft4, K. Kristiansen5, K. G. Sjögren5, R. Pinhasi6, C. Lalueza-Fox7D. Reich1,2,31Harvard Medical School, Genetics, Boston, MA/United States2Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard, Cambridge, MA/United States3Howard Hughes Medical Institute, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA/United States4University of Copenhagen, Centre for GeoGenetics, Natural History Museum, Copenhagen, Denmark5University of Gothenburg, Gothenburg, Sweden6University of Vienna, Department of Evolutionary Anthropology, Vienna, Austria7CSIC-Universitat Pompeu Fabra, Institute of Evolutionary Biology, Barcelona, SpainThe Iberian Peninsula, lying on the southwestern corner of Europe, provides an excellent opportunity to assess the final impactof population movements entering the continent from the east and to study prehistoric and historic connections with NorthAfrica. Previous studies have addressed the population history of Iberia using ancient genomes, but the final steps leading tothe formation of the modern Iberian gene pool during the last 4000 years remain largely unexplored. Here we report genomewidedata from 153 ancient individuals from Iberia, more than doubling the number of available genomes from this region andproviding the most comprehensive genetic transect of any region in the world during the last 8000 years. We find thatMesolithic hunter-gatherers dated to the last centuries before the arrival of farmers showed an increased genetic affinity tocentral European hunter-gatherers, as compared to earlier individuals. During the third millennium BCE, Iberia receivednewcomers from south and north. The presence of one individual with a North African origin in central Iberia demonstratesearly sporadic contacts across the strait of Gibraltar. Beginning ~2500 BCE, the arrival of individuals with steppe-relatedancestry had a rapid and widespread genetic impact, with Bronze Age populations deriving ~40% of their autosomal ancestryand 100% of their Y-chromosomes from these migrants. During the later Iron Age, the first genome-wide data from ancientnon-Indo-European speakers showed that they were similar to contemporaneous Indo-European speakers and derived most oftheir ancestry from the earlier Bronze Age substratum. With the exception of Basques, who remain broadly similar to Iron Agepopulations, during the last 2500 years Iberian populations were affected by additional gene-flow from the Central/EasternMediterranean region, probably associated to the Roman conquest, and from North Africa during the Moorish conquest butalso in earlier periods, probably related to the Phoenician-Punic colonization of Southern Iberia."

This isn't much different from what Reich said in his book if I remember correctly.

A 100% y line replacement seems a bit of an exaggeration given that I2a and G2a of the appropriate clades still exist in Iberia, unless they mean non-Basque Iberians perhaps?

I don't think we can really conclude how reasonable this is until we see the location and quality of the samples.

Just in general terms, the burials you're likely to find might be disproportionately those of more elite groups, so I always think it would be better to say something along the lines of....in the samples we've found to date...

If they're correct, Iberian speakers were no different from the Indo-European speakers. So, maybe in some areas they were small in number and adopted the language of the "natives"? Seems odd if there was a near wipe out of the ylines, but the Basques are odd too; it's not "that" isolated an area.

Under this scenario, the other y lines, especially a lot of the "E" and all of the "J" would have arrived later, with Carthaginians, North Africans proper, perhaps Romans?

The pattern in Y DNA seems to suggest a North African origin for the bulk of the immigrants (EDIT: I didn't even bother to check the particular subclade of E - it's E-V13 obviously, my bad. IGNORE THE NORTH AFRICAN ORIGIN BIT!), with later less (but still) significant additions from classical populations (Phoenicians/Carthaginians etc.) and Jews, rich in J2 especially but also J1. The imbalance of the J2:J1 ratio suggests not all J2 came from these two Levantine populations. The Kura-Araxes expansion is an interesting hypothesis, but I'd expect some more Y DNA L. Perhaps it got lost on the way there :LOL:
 
I fail to see how genocide of males (and an analogy to the treatment of indigenous people of the Americas as an example) as an explanation for the decimation of y lines in Iberia during the Bronze Age is irrelevant.

The y lines of the "natives" were not decimated during the Neolithic. In fact one of the most prolific y lines was an adopted Mesolithic hunter line, and moreover hunters and farmers lived side by side for years. There's NO comparison. None of that is "SPECULATION" any longer. We have the proof in ancient dna.

The only "North African" lineages that would have crossed to Iberia at that time period were from yDna "E". In fact, they have one such ancient sample. The "new" lineages in the Neolithic came from Anatolia, perhaps including ancestry from the Anatolia/Levant region. The new lineages in the Bronze Age came from the East: from the Pontic Caspian plain with the "Indo-Europeans", and from south of that with non-Indo-Europeans traveling along the Northern European coast of the Mediterranean. The Iron Age is another matter, because you have a big footprint from Carthage and perhaps a bit of one from Roman veterans. Then there's the Moorish period after the collapse of Rome.

Do I really have to direct some posters, once again, to the thread on essential ancient dna papers?

Look, I don't like some of this stuff either, but facts are inconvenient things.
 
I fail to see how genocide of males (and an analogy to the treatment of indigenous people of the Americas as an example) as an explanation for the decimation of y lines in Iberia during the Bronze Age is irrelevant.

The y lines of the "natives" were not decimated during the Neolithic. In fact one of the most prolific y lines was an adopted Mesolithic hunter line, and moreover hunters and farmers lived side by side for years. There's NO comparison. None of that is "SPECULATION" any longer. We have the proof in ancient dna.

The only "North African" lineages that would have crossed to Iberia at that time period were from yDna "E". In fact, they have one such ancient sample. The "new" lineages in the Neolithic came from Anatolia, perhaps including ancestry from the Anatolia/Levant region. The new lineages in the Bronze Age came from the East: from the Pontic Caspian plain with the "Indo-Europeans", and from south of that with non-Indo-Europeans traveling along the Northern European coast of the Mediterranean. The Iron Age is another matter, because you have a big footprint from Carthage and perhaps a bit of one from Roman veterans. Then there's the Moorish period after the collapse of Rome.

Do I really have to direct some posters, once again, to the thread on essential ancient dna papers?

Look, I don't like some of this stuff either, but facts are inconvenient things.

You can quote me btw...

And fair enough, I didn't look at all into what particular subclades of E1b1b are amongst modern Spaniards, I've edited my post appropriately.

ALSO it basically is irrelevant, you only need a sentence, not bringing in a different topic of discussion.

What I'm about to say isn't true, but all anyone's interested in is the origin of R1b-L51 (particularly in the context of Western IE), let's be honest
 
http://nautil.us/issue/58/self/social-inequality-leaves-a-genetic-mark

David Reich:

This Yamnaya expansion also cannot have been entirely friendly, as is clear from the fact that the proportion of Y chromosomes of steppe origin in both western Europe14 and in India15 today is much larger than the proportion of the rest of the genome. This preponderance of male ancestry coming from the steppe implies that male descendants of the Yamnaya with political or social power were more successful at competing for local mates than men from the local groups. The most striking example I know is from Iberia in far southwestern Europe, where Yamnaya-derived ancestry arrived suddenly at the onset of the Bronze Age between 4,500 and 4,000 years ago. Daniel Bradley’s laboratory and my laboratory independently produced ancient DNA from individuals of this period.14 We find that in the first Iberians with Yamnaya-derived ancestry, the proportion of Yamnaya ancestry across the whole genome is almost never more than around 15 percent. However, around 90 percent of males who carry Yamnaya ancestry have a Y-chromosome type of steppe origin that was absent in Iberia prior to that time. It is clear that there were extraordinary hierarchies and imbalances in power at work in the Yamnaya expansions.

An additional factor could have been the Celtic "skull cult":

"There is also that custom, barbarous and exotic, which attends most of the northern tribes, when they depart from the battle they hang the heads of their enemies from the necks or their horses, and when they have brought them home, nail the spectacle to the entrance of their houses." - Strabo
 
One source:



Confucius says, "Reviewing what you have learned and learning anew, you are fit to be a teacher."

If this study shows violence killed off the men and left the women and girls to be victimized, what about the previous studies of these proto-celts who had the same means, same background, same weapons, and same customs and motives who also replaced the male population elsewhere and had fill of the women and girls.

The mtDNA of the neolithic women shows up in the same native population today. Showing that some of the women did survive, while some who resisted their new husbands were killed.

These proto-celts had the morality of Beavis and Butthead, except they cared about the fellow proto-celts.

These were not Proto-Celts. Not that the Celts were much better.

The very same thing happened in Central Europe a few hundred years earlier, which was dominated by CW and R1a. The Y-haplotypes of the men virtually disappeared, while the women probably made it and would have been integrated into the populations of the invaders.

Coon already noted that the "Zoned Bell Beakers" who would spread from Germany all over Europe were a mix of skeletally Beaker, CW & Megalithic types. He suspected that BB was the socially dominant element in this mix, but he probably didn't realize that CW males were more or less excluded.

Putting it as impersonally as possible, the general rule in prehistory seems to have been that when a group managed to obtain an economic and thus also a numerical advantage that meant bad news for the Y-Chromosomes of competing groups. Coon remarked that the behavior of early CW groups made it seem like they were racketeers, monopolizing on sources of wealth. The BBs who succeeded them were even more proficient at this.
 
These were not Proto-Celts. Not that the Celts were much better.

The very same thing happened in Central Europe a few hundred years earlier, which was dominated by CW and R1a. The Y-haplotypes of the men virtually disappeared, while the women probably made it and would have been integrated into the populations of the invaders.

Coon already noted that the "Zoned Bell Beakers" who would spread from Germany all over Europe were a mix of skeletally Beaker, CW & Megalithic types. He suspected that BB was the socially dominant element in this mix, but he probably didn't realize that CW males were more or less excluded.

Putting it as impersonally as possible, the general rule in prehistory seems to have been that when a group managed to obtain an economic and thus also a numerical advantage that meant bad news for the Y-Chromosomes of competing groups. Coon remarked that the behavior of early CW groups made it seem like they were racketeers, monopolizing on sources of wealth. The BBs who succeeded them were even more proficient at this.

I will say, though, that I do not think (even if I used to a few months ago) that CW women significantly affected non-Central European Bell Beakers. There is no possibility of Corded influence in non-Central European Beakers, realistically. True Iberian Bell Beakers still carried, in my opinion, decent Steppe admix (not anything near the level of CW though) long before meeting with the CWC though.
 

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