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Thread: All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Look at archeology of El Argar around 2000 BC or a bit before...
    I know of the argaric sites and I don't see evidence of any direct link with the Aegean except for the rectangular houses which exist all over the world.

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    Any known DNA from El Argar ?
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    Well G2 and I2a2 are present in Iberia, so it is not safe to assume that ALL men were exterminated. Even though they are fairly limited in modern Iberians.
    Last edited by ihype02; 05-10-18 at 14:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I fail to see how genocide of males (and an analogy to the treatment of indigenous people of the Americas as an example) as an explanation for the decimation of y lines in Iberia during the Bronze Age is irrelevant.

    The y lines of the "natives" were not decimated during the Neolithic. In fact one of the most prolific y lines was an adopted Mesolithic hunter line, and moreover hunters and farmers lived side by side for years. There's NO comparison. None of that is "SPECULATION" any longer. We have the proof in ancient dna.

    The only "North African" lineages that would have crossed to Iberia at that time period were from yDna "E". In fact, they have one such ancient sample. The "new" lineages in the Neolithic came from Anatolia, perhaps including ancestry from the Anatolia/Levant region. The new lineages in the Bronze Age came from the East: from the Pontic Caspian plain with the "Indo-Europeans", and from south of that with non-Indo-Europeans traveling along the Northern European coast of the Mediterranean. The Iron Age is another matter, because you have a big footprint from Carthage and perhaps a bit of one from Roman veterans. Then there's the Moorish period after the collapse of Rome.

    Do I really have to direct some posters, once again, to the thread on essential ancient dna papers?

    Look, I don't like some of this stuff either, but facts are inconvenient things.
    Some of those conclusions are a bit surprising to me, especially the supposed "reappearance" of non-IE lineages after the BA during the IA and afterwards. I mean, some parts of Iberia, like Portugal, Extremadura and Cantabria, have really high percentages of non-R1b/R1a lineages, even as much as 40-50%. Could that huge transformation away from the "100% replacement of Neolithic males" scenario of Bronze Age Iberia have happened in the last ~2,500 years without leaving a huge genetic imprint in the shape of a much more significant North African and East Mediterranean admixtures in modern Iberians? Was there such a huge transformation (I mean, deducing from ~0% in the BA exploding to an average ~35% of non-steppe lineages nowadays) that is reflected autosomally comparing modern and ancient Iberians? And is there any archaeological, material sign of such a massive if partial replacement?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Some of those conclusions are a bit surprising to me, especially the supposed "reappearance" of non-IE lineages after the BA during the IA and afterwards. I mean, some parts of Iberia, like Portugal, Extremadura and Cantabria, have really high percentages of non-R1b/R1a lineages, even as much as 40-50%. Could that huge transformation away from the "100% replacement of Neolithic males" scenario of Bronze Age Iberia have happened in the last ~2,500 years without leaving a huge genetic imprint in the shape of a much more significant North African and East Mediterranean admixtures in modern Iberians? Was there such a huge transformation (I mean, deducing from ~0% in the BA exploding to an average ~35% of non-steppe lineages nowadays) that is reflected autosomally comparing modern and ancient Iberians? And is there any archaeological, material sign of such a massive if partial replacement?
    Why does Scandinavia have one of the highest steppe % for a modern population when their primary male lineage is I1 wich has, as we know for now, nothing to do with steppe ancestry? Ancestry is very difficult to calculate i guess, Y-dna lineage doesn't explain entirely ancestry. The real success of steppe ancestry must be found in exogamic mariages. If we admit for exemple that R1b / Steppe in Iberia was entering and located firstly in North, local Neolithic or WHG? women, will very fast turn their ancestry into steppe like. After few generations, some of those women would give steppe ancestry to more southern people, while other southern group would stay pre-indo-european. At the time were cultural have take some step further than demographic, we can see pre-indo-european lineages or ancestry became again more dominant than IE ones. I think the same happened in the Alps and the Balkans, maybe even in Anatolia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @Berun,
    Really objective mindset. How about you wait until you see the paper?
    yes, I find it very confusing
    everybody giving comments here before the paper is out
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As to yDna...from Olalde et al 2017 on the Spanish "Beaker" samples:
    "Iberian individuals with enough data to produce a reliable Y-chromosome haplogroup1882 determination belonged to haplogroups I2a2 and G2 (Supplementary Table 3), bothpresent in high frequencies in European Neolithic farmers124,130–132 1883 and also in Iberian1884 Copper Age populations. Haplogroup G2 probably entered Europe from the Near East1885 during the Neolithic expansion, and haplogroup I2a2 was likely introduced into the1886 Neolithic population through admixture with European hunter-gatherers. Two Iberian1887 individuals belonged to haplogroup R1b but likely not to R1b-L23 and therefore not to1888 R1b-S116/P312. Similar R1b haplogroups were present in low frequencies in Europe1889 during the Neolithic period, as they have been previously observed in both centralEurope (I0559) and Iberia (I0410)124 1890 ."
    I notice a divide in neolithic Iberia.
    Eastern and southern Iberia is mostly G2a2.
    Western Iberia is mostly I2a.
    The Cardial Ware expansion stopped in the Algarve, where it arrived ca 7.5 ka.
    The local HG lived in the estuaria in settlements with large shell mounds.
    There settlements were seasonal.
    There were inland hunting seasons and fishing/shellfish seasons in the estuaria.
    Further inland they had megalithic constructions since 8 ka.
    When Cardial Ware arrived, the shell mound settlements were abondonned, but the megalithic constructions didn't stop.
    The burials in megalithic monuments is remeniscent to the burials in the shell mounds.
    The first farmers in Brittain were megalithic. None of them were G2a2, they were all I2a.
    Autosomal they were very much like Iberian neolithic.
    The Iberian megalithic subclades are I2a-L161 and I2a-Z161, still present in Britain, but extinct in Iberia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    yes, I find it very confusing
    everybody giving comments here before the paper is out

    I notice a divide in neolithic Iberia.
    Eastern and southern Iberia is mostly G2a2.
    Western Iberia is mostly I2a.
    The Cardial Ware expansion stopped in the Algarve, where it arrived ca 7.5 ka.
    The local HG lived in the estuaria in settlements with large shell mounds.
    There settlements were seasonal.
    There were inland hunting seasons and fishing/shellfish seasons in the estuaria.
    Further inland they had megalithic constructions since 8 ka.
    When Cardial Ware arrived, the shell mound settlements were abondonned, but the megalithic constructions didn't stop.
    The burials in megalithic monuments is remeniscent to the burials in the shell mounds.
    The first farmers in Brittain were megalithic. None of them were G2a2, they were all I2a.
    Autosomal they were very much like Iberian neolithic.
    But then Megalithism started in western iberia, so megalithism is mainly an HG thing more than a Farmer thing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    But then Megalithism started in western iberia, so megalithism is mainly an HG thing more than a Farmer thing?
    it seems megalithism was in the Alentejo prior to Cardial Ware, 8 ka
    it seems megalithism was in Britanny prior to LBK or Cardial Ware, 6.8 ka
    it even seems oxens and the plough were invented by megalithic people in Britanny
    they were I2a, but autosomal mixture EEF-WHG

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    it seems megalithism was in the Alentejo prior to Cardial Ware, 8 ka
    it seems megalithism was in Britanny prior to LBK or Cardial Ware, 6.8 ka
    it even seems oxens and the plough were invented by megalithic people in Britanny
    they were I2a, but autosomal mixture EEF-WHG
    Hm intersting.

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    I always assumed megalithism was associated with the farmers. A lot of the structures seem to have calendar applications which would have been vital in agriculture. Also, Bell Beakers in Britain seem to have completely replaced the farmer DNA, but continued or even expanded constructions such as Stonehenge. Which I thought indicated that it was seen more as a piece of infrastructure than a religious or cultural thing.

    But that was just something I assumed. Also, Farmers is not completely the same as farming across Europe. Do the dates not fit the narrative?

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almendres_Cromlech

    prior to Cardial Ware

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locmariaquer_megaliths
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnenez

    neither LBK nor Cardial Ware ever reached Britanny

    both southern Portugal and Britanny had HG with mounds of seashells in which they burried their death prior to the construction of dolmens or passage graves

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    This might be of interest for this thread. An elite burial complex from Andalusia ca. 2800 B.C. . Other than the extraordinarily rich grave goods that accompanied the most important individual in the burial complex there is a chamber with what appear to be .... the skeletons of up to 20 young women:

    There was an exceptional collection of artefacts. In the centre of the largechamber there were a stela and a varied series of objects, inhumations and ceramicvessels with food offerings were placed around them. Even though the outer parts ofthe large chamber had been disturbed, excavation documented 20 individuals. Theprocesses of autolysis and skeletonisation of many of these individuals had not beencompleted when new inhumations took place. Radiocarbon dating suggests that thedeposition of these inhumations may have taken place simultaneously or within avery short period (Bayliss et al. 2016). The 20 individuals identified are adults (11cases between 20 and 35 years old), and at least 12 of them are female. While noclear sexual determination could be provided for the rest of the inhumations, fivehave been classified as ‘probably female’ and three as indeterminate.
    https://rd.springer.com/content/pdf/...018-9114-2.pdf

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    La Bastida de Totana (Argar) :

    "One of the most relevant architectural elements discovered is the ogival arched postern gate, or secondary door, located near the main entrance. The arch is in very good conditions and is the first one to be found in Prehistoric Europe. Precedents can be found in the second city of Troy (Turkey) and in the urban world of the Middle East (Palestine, Israel and Jordan), influenced by the civilisations of Mesopotamia and Egypt. This indicates that people from the East participated in the construction of the fortification. These people would have reached La
    Bastida after the crisis which devastated their region 4,300 years ago. "

    https://forwhattheywereweare.wordpre...gory/el-argar/

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    This might be of interest for this thread. An elite burial complex from Andalusia ca. 2800 B.C. . Other than the extraordinarily rich grave goods that accompanied the most important individual in the burial complex there is a chamber with what appear to be .... the skeletons of up to 20 young women:



    https://rd.springer.com/content/pdf/...018-9114-2.pdf
    Very interesting - I'd love to see what that guys results are. R1b-L51?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Some of those conclusions are a bit surprising to me, especially the supposed "reappearance" of non-IE lineages after the BA during the IA and afterwards. I mean, some parts of Iberia, like Portugal, Extremadura and Cantabria, have really high percentages of non-R1b/R1a lineages, even as much as 40-50%. Could that huge transformation away from the "100% replacement of Neolithic males" scenario of Bronze Age Iberia have happened in the last ~2,500 years without leaving a huge genetic imprint in the shape of a much more significant North African and East Mediterranean admixtures in modern Iberians? Was there such a huge transformation (I mean, deducing from ~0% in the BA exploding to an average ~35% of non-steppe lineages nowadays) that is reflected autosomally comparing modern and ancient Iberians? And is there any archaeological, material sign of such a massive if partial replacement?
    It depends whether you're asking me or them, and we don't have the paper yet. :) From the standpoint of steppe ancestry, Martiniano sees, for Portugal, the beginning of the movement from the steppe in the change to downstream R1b and the beginning of an increase in steppe ancestry. Then he has a gap chronologically in the samples. His next reference point is modern people of Iberia, who definitely have steppe, but less than, say, Central Europe. (Not everyone sees a figure in modern Iberians as 35%. Martiniano certainly didn't.)

    This upcoming Olalde paper seems to be saying that in those intervening years steppe ancestry massively increased, accounting for 40% of the total genome, and there was 100% replacement of the ylines.

    It's difficult to critique a paper we haven't read, but for starters, maybe 100% replacement is a bit of a stretch, given that there is still a bit of G2a and I2a left, unless in the body of the paper they're referring only to non-Basque Iberians. On the other hand, I don't see any indication that the "J" lineages were around prior to the Bronze Age, at least. Y dna "E" is a different story, probably, as they say they did find a "North African" sample pretty early, although they qualify that by saying the contacts were sporadic.

    So, I wouldn't say that there was a "reappearance" of non-IE lineages, as "J" and most of "E" probably weren't there until the Bronze Age at the earliest. I am a little surprised, however, that they seem to be saying that the "J" lineages didn't appear until the Iron Age or perhaps later. Carthage did control a big portion of Iberia, but were there enough of them to make a huge change in yDna? Yes, there were some Roman veteran and other colonies, but were they predominantly "J", and were they a big enough percentage of the total population to make such a change? That leaves the Moorish domination. I could see it being responsible for E-M81, but all of the J1 and J2 as well? My understanding was always that by far the biggest contingent were North Africans, with the "Arabs" being a much smaller percentage at the top. There's also El Algar to consider. Do they have the samples to address that?

    I don't know. I guess we have to wait to see the paper.


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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    La Bastida de Totana (Argar) :
    "One of the most relevant architectural elements discovered is the ogival arched postern gate, or secondary door, located near the main entrance. The arch is in very good conditions and is the first one to be found in Prehistoric Europe. Precedents can be found in the second city of Troy (Turkey) and in the urban world of the Middle East (Palestine, Israel and Jordan), influenced by the civilisations of Mesopotamia and Egypt. This indicates that people from the East participated in the construction of the fortification. These people would have reached La
    Bastida after the crisis which devastated their region 4,300 years ago. "
    https://forwhattheywereweare.wordpre...gory/el-argar/
    my understanding is that there was a settlement on the hill since 4.2 ka, but it was burnt down ca 4 ka when La Bastida was built
    so La Bastida seems intrusive to me but dated only 4 ka
    and IMO the highly stratified El Argar was ruled by these intruders
    they mismanaged the area leading to an ecological disaster

    the paper however seems to be about a 4.5 ka replacement, and it seems to be focused on western Iberia

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    yes, I find it very confusing
    everybody giving comments here before the paper is out
    I notice a divide in neolithic Iberia.
    Eastern and southern Iberia is mostly G2a2.
    Western Iberia is mostly I2a.
    The Cardial Ware expansion stopped in the Algarve, where it arrived ca 7.5 ka.
    The local HG lived in the estuaria in settlements with large shell mounds.
    There settlements were seasonal.
    There were inland hunting seasons and fishing/shellfish seasons in the estuaria.
    Further inland they had megalithic constructions since 8 ka.
    When Cardial Ware arrived, the shell mound settlements were abondonned, but the megalithic constructions didn't stop.
    The burials in megalithic monuments is remeniscent to the burials in the shell mounds.
    The first farmers in Brittain were megalithic. None of them were G2a2, they were all I2a.
    Autosomal they were very much like Iberian neolithic.
    The Iberian megalithic subclades are I2a-L161 and I2a-Z161, still present in Britain, but extinct in Iberia.
    I don't doubt you in terms of which "local" people might have provided the yDna, but they were still autosomally Iberian Neolithic farmers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almendres_Cromlech

    prior to Cardial Ware

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locmariaquer_megaliths
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnenez

    neither LBK nor Cardial Ware ever reached Britanny

    both southern Portugal and Britanny had HG with mounds of seashells in which they burried their death prior to the construction of dolmens or passage graves
    Interesting, that does appear to fit in neatly with the arrival of farming, and at least in Iberia with the arrival of Anatolian Farmer genetics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't doubt you in terms of which "local" people might have provided the yDna, but they were still autosomally Iberian Neolithic farmers.
    yes, EEF, but while LBK has the least WHG admixture, the Iberian neolithic has the most

    and a similar admixture event happened at the Iron Gates 8 ka
    the Iron Gates HG were R1b-V88 and I2a-Z161
    both appeared in Iberian neolithic

    on the other hand, I2a-L161 seems to be a HG of Iberian origin

    in British neolithic we have I2a-Z161 and I2a-L161 coming from Iberia plus I2a-M284
    I2a-M284 seems to be a HG of British origin
    these are 3 admixture events in a row, with 3 I2a clades and 1 R1b clade

    and in Iberian neolithic it seems that after the admixture event, G2a2 and I2a-L161 each went their own seperate way

    the same can be said about R1b-V88, who came from the iron gates
    it was not found in a classical Iberian Carded Ware site, it was found in the remote Els Trocs cave in the Pyrenees

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnarl View Post
    Interesting, that does appear to fit in neatly with the arrival of farming, and at least in Iberia with the arrival of Anatolian Farmer genetics.
    not quite in the same place at the same time

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    not quite in the same place at the same time
    Well, the Almenedes appears to have had a building period from about 6000 BC to 4000 BC. In Brittainy the Barnenez dates to about 4800 BC and the Locmariaquer to 4700 BC. Agriculture seems to have gotten to Iberia around 5700 BC with Anatolian farmer DNA showing up. Since I think it implausible that we've found the remains of the exact first generation of farmers and that the start date of the building is probably not totally on the dot, its seems there will be some overlap on the confidence limits here. There seems to have been rather a lot of churn in the penninsula at the time, with the demographic change, start of agriculture and beginning of large stone constructions all in the same period. I'd say it seems rather probable that these large changes were linked.

    Start of farming in Brittany I've not found a lot on. "From about 5000 BC" is the closes I got. Nothing on whether it was through Anatolian farmers demic diffusion or whether it was a local adoption like the eastern Baltic farming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Very interesting - I'd love to see what that guys results are. R1b-L51?
    I have no idea, but if L51 came with steppe ancestry I doubt it would be in Andalusia this early.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnarl View Post
    Well, the Almenedes appears to have had a building period from about 6000 BC to 4000 BC. In Brittainy the Barnenez dates to about 4800 BC and the Locmariaquer to 4700 BC. Agriculture seems to have gotten to Iberia around 5700 BC with Anatolian farmer DNA showing up. Since I think it implausible that we've found the remains of the exact first generation of farmers and that the start date of the building is probably not totally on the dot, its seems there will be some overlap on the confidence limits here. There seems to have been rather a lot of churn in the penninsula at the time, with the demographic change, start of agriculture and beginning of large stone constructions all in the same period. I'd say it seems rather probable that these large changes were linked.
    Start of farming in Brittany I've not found a lot on. "From about 5000 BC" is the closes I got. Nothing on whether it was through Anatolian farmers demic diffusion or whether it was a local adoption like the eastern Baltic farming.
    Cardial ware got to Catualunia about 7.7 or 7.6 ka, but it didn't spread beyond the Gibraltar Strait prior to 7.5 ka.
    There would have been the Almagra of North African origin prior to Cardial Ware, but that was in Andalusia, and there is no DNA trace to confirm anything coming from North Africa.

    The LBK didn't get any further than the Paris Basin, and Cardial Ware till the Charente on the French Atlantic coast. No trace of both in Britanny.
    Maybe some herders got there, like in Els Trocs, but no proper farmers.

    P.S. apart from the Almendres Cromlechs, there were also monuments built in Perdigoës, some 15 km more inland, starting about 7,5 ka
    dolmens seem to have appeared in the area only about 6 ka, so later than in Britanny

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
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    If you have not seen it before, have a look at this :

    http://homeland.ku.dk/

    Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I0462 / F
    Find location: Arroyal I, Burgos
    Country: Spain
    Associated label in publication: Beaker Iberia
    Date: 2566–2345 calBCE (3950±26 BP, MAMS-25936)
    MtDNA haplogroup (mother): K1a+195
    Y-DNA haplogroup (father): null
    Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
    Colour group: Steppe (autosomal)

    Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I6588 / M
    Find location: Humanejos, Madrid
    Country: Spain
    Associated label in publication: Beaker Iberia
    Date: 2500–2000 BCE
    MtDNA haplogroup (mother): U5b2b3
    Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2a1a (L151)
    Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
    Colour group: Steppe (R1b)

    Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I6472 / M
    Find location: La Magdalena, Madrid
    Country: Spain
    Associated label in publication: Beaker Iberia
    Date: 2500–2000 BCE
    MtDNA haplogroup (mother): HV0b
    Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2 (M269)
    Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
    Colour group: Steppe (R1b)

    Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I5665 / M
    Find location: Virgazal, Tablada de Rudrón, Burgos
    Country: Spain
    Associated label in publication: Beaker Iberia
    Date: 2280–1984 calBCE (3730±40 BP, Poz-49174)
    MtDNA haplogroup (mother): K1a24a
    Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2a1a2 (P312)
    Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
    Colour group: Steppe (R1b)

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    If you have not seen it before, have a look at this :

    http://homeland.ku.dk/

    Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I0462 / F
    Find location: Arroyal I, Burgos
    Country: Spain
    Associated label in publication: Beaker Iberia
    Date: 2566–2345 calBCE (3950±26 BP, MAMS-25936)
    MtDNA haplogroup (mother): K1a+195
    Y-DNA haplogroup (father): null
    Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
    Colour group: Steppe (autosomal)

    Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I6588 / M
    Find location: Humanejos, Madrid
    Country: Spain
    Associated label in publication: Beaker Iberia
    Date: 2500–2000 BCE
    MtDNA haplogroup (mother): U5b2b3
    Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2a1a (L151)
    Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
    Colour group: Steppe (R1b)

    Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I6472 / M
    Find location: La Magdalena, Madrid
    Country: Spain
    Associated label in publication: Beaker Iberia
    Date: 2500–2000 BCE
    MtDNA haplogroup (mother): HV0b
    Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2 (M269)
    Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
    Colour group: Steppe (R1b)

    Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I5665 / M
    Find location: Virgazal, Tablada de Rudrón, Burgos
    Country: Spain
    Associated label in publication: Beaker Iberia
    Date: 2280–1984 calBCE (3730±40 BP, Poz-49174)
    MtDNA haplogroup (mother): K1a24a
    Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2a1a2 (P312)
    Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
    Colour group: Steppe (R1b)
    so steppe R1b-P312 Iberian Bell Beakers after all
    but only 4.5 ka Iberian Bell Beakers, not the 4.8 ka Bell Beakers?
    the 4.5 ka Bell Beakers must have come from the Carpathian Basin or Central Europe

    how about these guys :



    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-DF27/

    could it be them ?

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