All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago

[halfalp]

I read on Indo-European.eu a few times ago, that apparently a russian researchers team have found an R1b-L51 individual in Khvalynsk, alongside very weird lineage like O1. I cannot tell you if its confirmed whatsoever.

 

[halfalp]

This was the post.

https://indo-european.eu/2018/08/on...p-r1b-l51-in-late-repin-early-yamna-settlers/

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

This was the post.

https://indo-european.eu/2018/08/on...p-r1b-l51-in-late-repin-early-yamna-settlers/

Read this: https://indo-european.eu/2018/05/the-unique-elite-khvalynsk-male-from-a-yekaterinovskiy-cape-burial/

tl;dr It isn't legit. L51 hasn't been found before the Bell Beakers, as of yet.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Sredny Stog is the same culture, the same ancestry as Yamnaya. So this ain't gonna ad a lot much to the actual datas. Most of people have actually main and main times talked about a pre-Yamnaya migrations linked with Sredny Stog for West and Khvalynsk for East. So once again, it doesn't change that much.

The same or just related? Pre-Yamnaya (early-PIE?) migrations:

Ezero -> Anatolian? Usatovo -> Mycenaean?

 

[halfalp]

The same or just related? Pre-Yamnaya (early-PIE?) migrations:

Ezero -> Anatolian? Usatovo -> Mycenaean?

No it's not exactly the same culture, but Yamnaya came in part from Sredny Stog in case of ancestry and cultural package. Yamnaya is a broad term who means Burial Mounds, Sredny Stog didn't have exactly burial mounds, like Khvalynsk. Yamnaya is more the apogee of those two previous culture and maybe some regional ones.

For Anatolian and Mycenaean, i dont know, we cannot discuss this without proper links. We dont have any dna from Ezero or Usatovo.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

I know it's just Wikipedia, but this is great reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalcolithic_Europe

Of particular interest is the Middle Chalcolithic section:

"This period extends along the first half of the 3rd millennium BC. Most significant is the reorganization of the Danubians into the powerful Baden culture, which extended more or less to what would be the Austro-Hungarian Empire in recent times. The rest of the Balkans was profoundly restructured after the invasions of the previous period but, with the exception of the Coțofeni culture in a mountainous region, none of them show any eastern (or presumably Indo-European) traits. The new Ezero culture, in Bulgaria, shows the first traits of pseudo-bronze (an alloy of copper with arsenic). So does the first significant Aegean group: the Cycladic culture after 2800 BC.

In the North, for some time the supposedly Indo-European groups seemed to recede temporarily, suffering a strong cultural danubianization. In the East, the peoples of beyond the Volga (Yamna culture), surely eastern Indo-Europeans, ancestors of Iranians took over southern Russia and Ukraine. In the West the only sign of unity comes from the Megalithic super-culture, which extended from southern Sweden to southern Spain, including large parts of southern Germany as well. But the Mediterranean and Danubian groupings of the previous period appear fragmented into many smaller pieces, some of them apparently backward in technological matters. From c. 2800 BC, the Danubian Seine-Oise-Marne culture pushed directly or indirectly southwards, destroying most of the rich Megalithic culture of western France. After c. 2600 several phenomena will prefigure the changes of the upcoming period:

Large towns with stone walls appeared in two different areas of the Iberian Peninsula: one in the Portuguese region of Estremadura (culture of Vila Nova de São Pedro), strongly embedded in the Atlantic Megalithic culture; the other near Almería (SE Spain), centred on the large town of Los Millares, of Mediterranean character, probably affected by eastern cultural influxes (tholoi). Despite the many differences the two civilizations seemed to be in friendly contact and to have productive exchanges. In the area of Dordogne (Aquitaine, France), a new unexpected culture of bowmenappeared: the culture of Artenac, which would soon take control of western and even northern France and Belgium. In Poland and nearby regions, the putative Indo-Europeans reorganized and consolidated again with the culture of the Globular Amphoras. Nevertheless, the influence of many centuries in direct contact with the still-powerful Danubian peoples had greatly modified their culture."

 

[CrazyDonkey]

What was the population density in Iberia? Low population density could help explain the high y-dna replacement rates in Iberia and Britain. Did climatic change cause drought, famine, plague, and, thus, depopulation?

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

I’ve found what I think is the best guess for the touchdown point of R1b L51 in its Mediterranean hypothesis - https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Millares

 

[Aaron1981]

I think the most important issue that seems to be ignored is that R1b doesn't correlate well with IE languages:

Before L51 from the steppe became the most plausible possibility, the best explanation for this pattern was that L51 has nothing to do with IE. Now a different explanation is needed.

The same problem in the noth: Celtic is young, Ireland & Britain were settled early but became completely Celtic after the Iron Age. What were the languages spoken by the Bronze Age settlers?

That's a fallacious argument I see very often. The offset of lower R1b is from non-IE paternal lines such as E-M84 and J2 in places like Portugal and western Iberia. Nice try though. It could be that R1b were not IE speakers, or it could be they were, or the third option, which I believe is true, they were and they were not. DF27 most certainly spread to Iberia from the mouth of the Rhone and may have consisted of IE and non-IE speakers. How they arrived in this situation is inconclusive and we will likely never know. Plenty of R1a rich populations also do not speak IE. Plenty of J2 populations outside of Iran do not speak IE.

L51(xL11) does not peak in the Mediterranean, it is central European, and its descendants L11 is highest in northern Europe. Around 2500 BC we see P312+ move into southern Europe, and if and when it turns up in aDNA in places like southern Italy, it's probably been there a long time. (4.5 thousand years)

 

[Aaron1981]

So all it is is that there is more L51 as a % of R1b in Hungary than in, say, Ireland? I literally don't believe that.

Unless you mean L51* (I use L51 to include things like U106, P312 etc.)

Even so:

Not a very good distribution map quite frankly. There are plenty of samples L51(xL11) in Germany.

 

[Aaron1981]

Where do you think L51 could have DIRECTLY come to Western/Central Europe from - what culture. The only possibilities I have are the Beaker culture and the Baden culture (an underrated hypothesis that I've neglected). In both cases, it relies ultimately on a Balkan origin of L23, which I would happily bet on (rather than Steppe L23)

Considering there is only about 500 years difference that splits Z2103 and L51 from the parent node, I'm not sure how different they really could be. L51+ was most likely sprung from a western steppe culture

 

[markod]

That's a fallacious argument I see very often. The offset of lower R1b is from non-IE paternal lines such as E-M84 and J2 in places like Portugal and western Iberia. Nice try though. It could be that R1b were not IE speakers, or it could be they were, or the third option, which I believe is true, they were and they were not. DF27 most certainly spread to Iberia from the mouth of the Rhone and may have consisted of IE and non-IE speakers. How they arrived in this situation is inconclusive and we will likely never know. Plenty of R1a rich populations also do not speak IE. Plenty of J2 populations outside of Iran do not speak IE.

L51(xL11) does not peak in the Mediterranean, it is central European, and its descendants L11 is highest in northern Europe. Around 2500 BC we see P312+ move into southern Europe, and if and when it turns up in aDNA in places like southern Italy, it's probably been there a long time. (4.5 thousand years)

I think you might be a little confused as to what constitutes a fallacy.

 

[Aaron1981]

That, or U152 is a special case where the males picked up IE speech from an outside source (perhaps remnants of the Corded Ware culture). I suspect you're correct, though I'm unsure as hell.

This is all very interesting - only U106 and U152 are responsible for Western IE.

How do you figure? Celts were definitely U152 and we have a western Scythian native of Ukraine belong to this branch. In a sense, the Celts were on the steppes, the western part of it. It's true that Srubnaya was R1a for example, but I don't see how that discounts groups like Catacomb and Yamnaya being IE native speakers (rich in R1b). The Indo-Iranians moved back west much later and were predominantly R1a, but IE speakers existed there before them.

 

[Aaron1981]

we have I2a2a-L699 in Mariupol, in Yamna Bulgaria, in Catacomb Russia and in Vucedol

I don't know where the L699 are now exactly, but it seems to me they were part of the IE expansion to Europe too.

Strange that R1b-L1 wasn't found though.

All of the Catacomb samples from the recent aDNA paper on the Maykop + Caucasus paper were R1b.

 

[berun]

Dont talk about being open minded, you are the one who dont read. I said multiple time that whatever if its Yamnaya, Sredni Stog, Repin, Khvalynsk or even more regional and related culture, it's all the same ancestry. Yamnaya is just relevant because it is a culture who emphasis a lot of migrations west and east coming from the pontic steppe that we dont see earlier.

impossible, you can't think in other places or cultures other than those of the steppe, so let make you think harder, when and where do you think CHG and EHG meet first?

 

[MOESAN]

@to be or not to be

yes, sorry: L51*, the only one in current pops which can matter in our discussion here concerning past and road

 

[halfalp]

impossible, you can't think in other places or cultures other than those of the steppe, so let make you think harder, when and where do you think CHG and EHG meet first?

I'm not sure to understand your point here, are you talking about IE languages? If so, why should CHG and EEF be more relevant than WHG and EHG?

But as for the question, it probably happened in the Balkans or the shore of the Black Sea.

 

[GloomyGonzales]

Very interesting - I personally prefer my variant with R1b1a (at least) originating from the Balkans rather than Iran (lots of reasons - the origin and spread of the Swastika as a huge one, spread of metallurgy, more recently V88 being found amongst Balkan HGs, amongst others), but to post that at a time of Yamnaya-fetishism takes some pretty big balls (plus, we had no idea about V88 in the Mesolithic Balkans back then). Main point of contention is Gedrosian admix. being associated with R1b, and whether or not it's a pretty much fictitious descriptor, the correlation is still there in distinguishing from Eastern Europe. Perhaps R1b reached its Balkan breeding grounds from the Iran region (maybe more Eastern than that) in the first place?

For srs though, the Balkan and Ukraine region has GOT to be the breeding ground of R1b. At a minor stretch, it could involve Anatolia too.

I made this R1b migration map mostly on the basis of linguistic data. I believe that both R1a and R1b folks survived LGM in the same geographical region (the Iranian Plateau) and before expansion in Eastern and Western Europe they were culturally pretty much close (language, oral traditions, technology etc). So if we presume that R1a and R1b folks before expansion were speakers of closely related languages we can reconstruct their migration routes by similar linguistic traces.
I analyzed IE words used for designation of settlements and sorted out those words that can be found in all IE branches reliably connected with spread of R1a haplos:
toch.B.: kwaṣo – village, ike – settlement, Lithuanian: kaimas - settlement, village, Latvian: ciems – settlement, village, ēka – house, Greek: oîkos – house, oikismo – settlement, Phrygian: gava – region, place, Tajik: khona – house, gothic: оium –>*o(h)um – country.
So migration of R1b folks can be traced down by presence of cognates of R1a words for settlements. I believe that wide spread in South Europe (Spain, South France and Italy) place names ending in -asco, -asca, -usco, -osco, -osca, -inco,-inca are in fact R1b cognates of words kwaṣo, ike, kaimas, ciems, ēka, oîkos, oikismo, gava, khona, *o(h)um.
So in my opinion primary expansion zone of West European subclades of R1b folks should correlate with spread of place names ending in -asco, -asca, -usco, -osco, -osca, -inco,-inca.



And in this case an entry point for European R1b folks (~R1b-L151) should be somewhere in Corsica.

 

[halfalp]

I made this R1b migration map mostly on the basis of linguistic data. I believe that both R1a and R1b folks survived LGM in the same geographical region (the Iranian Plateau) and before expansion in Eastern and Western Europe they were culturally pretty much close (language, oral traditions, technology etc). So if we presume that R1a and R1b folks before expansion were speakers of closely related languages we can reconstruct their migration routes by similar linguistic traces.
I analyzed IE words used for designation of settlements and sorted out those words that can be found in all IE branches reliably connected with spread of R1a haplos:
toch.B.: kwaṣo – village, ike – settlement, Lithuanian: kaimas - settlement, village, Latvian: ciems – settlement, village, ēka – house, Greek: oîkos – house, oikismo – settlement, Phrygian: gava – region, place, Tajik: khona – house, gothic: оium –>*o(h)um – country.
So migration of R1b folks can be traced down by presence of cognates of R1a words for settlements. I believe that wide spread in South Europe (Spain, South France and Italy) place names ending in -asco, -asca, -usco, -osco, -osca, -inco,-inca are in fact R1b cognates of words kwaṣo, ike, kaimas, ciems, ēka, oîkos, oikismo, gava, khona, *o(h)um.
So in my opinion primary expansion zone of West European subclades of R1b folks should correlate with spread of place names ending in -asco, -asca, -usco, -osco, -osca, -inco,-inca.



And in this case an entry point for European R1b folks (~R1b-L151) should be somewhere in Corsica.

Omg this entire thread, you are not Russian right? R1b-L754 have been found in 14'000 BCE Villabruna Cave ( North Italy ), R1b-V88 have been found in Mesolithic Balkans and Mesolithic / Neolithic Eastern Europe. R1b-P297 have been found in Mesolithic Baltic... Plus that genomic of WHG / Villabruna Cluster doesn't show Basal Eurasian, wich would be the case with such migration pattern. This is all very outdated.

 

[berun]

But as for the question, it probably happened in the Balkans or the shore of the Black Sea.

well, so there was somebody crossing the Balkans carrying it's CHG share. Now, they were pushed northwards by EEF? they were a local minority among EEF? the archaeological registry fails to detect them in the Neolithic?