All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago

the today Y-R1b in Iberia: apart Basque country and Catalonya, their %'s are between 50% and 66%, roughly said. Yes, they are high %s. But could I believe that at the Chalco-Bronze Age transition, R1b reached the 98% everywhere in Iberia? In far South? Could I?
All males slaughtered? Eveywhere? So dense was the population that there reminds no refuge lands to shelter?
Or my brain is turning into rotted cabbage, or there are some exagerations in these affirmations.
This does not exclude there has been a huge change there at these dates, and a big desequilibrium in mating power for males...
 
the today Y-R1b in Iberia: apart Basque country and Catalonya, their %'s are between 50% and 66%, roughly said. Yes, they are high %s. But could I believe that at the Chalco-Bronze Age transition, R1b reached the 98% everywhere in Iberia? In far South? Could I?
All males slaughtered? Eveywhere? So dense was the population that there reminds no refuge lands to shelter?
Or my brain is turning into rotted cabbage, or there are some exagerations in these affirmations.
This does not exclude there has been a huge change there at these dates, and a big desequilibrium in mating power for males...
They went into hiding and then what? Were there women with them? Did they have offspring? Probably not. The invaders were not farmers. They were in the business of finding whatever they could plunder.
 
Actually its tricky to assume that, just because the same haplogroup is well and alive in a region which lived there thousands of years before, there was continuity. The shift in Iberia goes beyond the replacement by R1b, because a lot of the other male lineages came in later, with Celts, Phoenicians, Romans, Sarmatians, Germanics, Moors, French and even modern migratory movements. If you pin down what survived from the pre-steppe pool, its meagre. Even some lineages we find among BB which were not R1b might have been actually from Southern France or the Alpine region, rather than local.
Firetown is right, most of the males were killed or enslaved on the spot, but most likely not everywhere. Because I doubt there was a rule to it, so local clans, chiefs and the situation determined the outcome. But overall little was spared, that's an established fact by now and unequal mating opportunities or the like don't explain the drastic replacement. This is just a hypothesis, a last resort for those which don't like the idea of the past being a gruesome battlefield for most of the time. But that's how it was, even long before the steppe people moved West. Polygyny seems to have been not that common among BB, but even if it would have been, the results and the shift are too extreme. Whereever a people just dominated to become the elite, even with all the social advantages, the local lineages being much better preserved. Look at Iran or South Asia. Or at the Lombards and Goths, the Romans etc. They all did dominate, they all did reproduce at a higher level, but they never got even close at all, nowhere, without actually finishing off local males en masse.
 
I wonder if it was the type of situation wheres one population ( The Steppe invaders ) brought in disease that they themselves were immune to. Think of Small Pox and Native Americans.
 
I wonder if it was the type of situation wheres one population ( The Steppe invaders ) brought in disease that they themselves were immune to. Think of Small Pox and Native Americans.
Think about this:
90% of Brazilian y-DNA is European
90% of Brazilian mtDNA isn't
Whatever we have once been told regarding what exactly wiped out some populations might have been untrue
 
I wonder if it was the type of situation wheres one population ( The Steppe invaders ) brought in disease that they themselves were immune to. Think of Small Pox and Native Americans.

That's always possible. It was also possible for modern Homo sapiens when entering West Eurasia and replacing Neandertals, when Mesolithic colonisers replaced the Palaeolithic Europeans, when the Neolithic colonisation of Europe from Anatolia was happening and so on. Even the Romans used "biological warfare" against the Celts and there are hints in the bible.

Anyway, I don't think this was the true reason. For one the steppe people needed quite some time from one end to the other of Europe. It happened fast, but not that fast. In some places where we see real strongholds of the preceding cultures, we can observe they had to move around, they had to evade them. Some places were much, much later included in the steppe dominated world. Why?
Those seem to have did the best which adapted to the steppe people's more mobile agro-pastoralism and warfare, adopted new ideological elements and techniques. Also, a lot of the later steppe-related expansion happened with people which were themselves largely descendents from pre-steppe people. What really changed was the male lineage. So one dominant clan replaced another.

You could even ask the same question for Bell Beakers, which themselves were less steppe-like than Corded Ware and some Eastern steppe-related groups, yet they replaced many of those steppe people too. Why? Because at that point in time, they had the advantages. Bell Beaker clans didn't just replace non-steppe people and dominated those, they also dominated, in some areas, steppe-related groups which were not strong enough. So even if there was a disease, some sort of plague, even if this did play in, it was not decisive, it was not the main cause.

There are many hints for the plague being spread even earlier and the only thing you could say is, that it would be better, if there is such a plague, to be a mobile agro-pastoralist or pastoralist, rather than being a sedentary farmer in a big village, even urban centre. The reason should be obvious: The old settlements were build on dirt, the tells were piles of dirt. Even if they were fairly clean for their time, they were still dirty places and it was impossible to keep hygienic standards in these crowded settlements, with one house being build close to the next, with so many people living close together.
If you are a semi-nomadic agro-pastoralist or pastoralist, living in small, moving groups, even if you are not genetically much better suited to survive the disease as an individual, your people got an advantage statistically over sedentary farmers. Then again, a lot of the non-steppe people became more mobile agro-pastoralists too, some even before the steppe people (!). Yet those were largely replaced, with the exception of their strongholds and with the exception of some big revivals here and there, too.

In the Balkans the local lineages did, overall, better, in some other places too. But those are supposed to have been hit by the plague first. But the situation was worst for the local male lineages in places which were rather closed and not yet that developed in comparison to the Balkans and Carpathian-Pannonian region, like Britain in particular and Iberia. There is just one big difference in my opinion, and that's that it was the Bell Beaker people, which made no prisoners and that they could hunt them down in the region, without having any role or need for the local males, by and large.
Steppe people did not always replace that much of the locals, they did not always kill all the males - even BB did not. But the BB did kill more, they did replace at a higher rate and more successful even than most steppe people.

Think about this:
90% of Brazilian y-DNA is European
90% of Brazilian mtDNA isn't
Whatever we have once been told regarding what exactly wiped out some populations might have been untrue

The disease factor was much stronger in the Americas by the way, because this was an isolated continent and a different race of people. In Europe the difference was not that big and the isolation from each other not that strong. so if a plague hit one group, it did hit the other as well and at least almost as strong. In Latin America the advantage of the mixed people over the pure Amerindians was genetically much bigger, if its about resistance and social selection by phenotype, than in Europe, where the differences were much, much smaller between conquerors and conquered.
 
Have our new members bothered to read the thread?

We've gone over and over this.

If you want to repeat it, by all means, of course; more hits for Maciamo's site.
 
Think about this:
90% of Brazilian y-DNA is European
90% of Brazilian mtDNA isn't
Whatever we have once been told regarding what exactly wiped out some populations might have been untrue
IIRC, the % of European mtDNA in Brazil is between 30 and 35%, but it's true that the country received many European immigrants from XIX century onwards. Don't remember the % of Euro Y-DNA.

As for plague, I guess the following is the study (or at least one of them) that theorized it may have played a role. But apparently they recognized that the "smoking gun" for the theory was not found yet.

"Ancient plague may have wiped out Stone Age farmers in Europe"

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...pe-sweden-archaeology-neolithic-a8670986.html

The paper:
https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(18)31464-8
 
Some results of El Argar, are from a few months ago, so it is possible that you have more matches but I have seen that they have removed El Argar from the creation of kits, why? Why they treat everything Iberian as a taboo, I am already up to the hat not to say anything else.

I don't see so much disappearance of a pre-yamayaya man


roscondeelargarI.JPEG

pcaMODERN.JPEG


elARGARsegmentos.jpeg


elargarsegmentos2.jpeg


elargarsegmentos3.jpeg
 
IIRC, the % of European mtDNA in Brazil is between 30 and 35%, but it's true that the country received many European immigrants from XIX century onwards. Don't remember the % of Euro Y-DNA.
As for plague, I guess the following is the study (or at least one of them) that theorized it may have played a role. But apparently they recognized that the "smoking gun" for the theory was not found yet.
"Ancient plague may have wiped out Stone Age farmers in Europe"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...pe-sweden-archaeology-neolithic-a8670986.html
The paper:
https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(18)31464-8
Ancient plague may have impacted people who are Rh negative less if we follow the pattern of diseases of viral origin. Blood type frequencies in Europe could have been altered by the plague. Even in the case of COVID-19, the pattern seems to be continued with lower numbers of infected individuals dying among those with Rh(D) negative blood types.
Covid-19 blood group distributions.jpg
COVID-19 deaths: 1 out of 45 Rh- and 1 out of 8 Rh+ patients (NYP/CUIMC)
 
IIRC, the % of European mtDNA in Brazil is between 30 and 35%, but it's true that the country received many European immigrants from XIX century onwards. Don't remember the % of Euro Y-DNA.
As for plague, I guess the following is the study (or at least one of them) that theorized it may have played a role. But apparently they recognized that the "smoking gun" for the theory was not found yet.
"Ancient plague may have wiped out Stone Age farmers in Europe"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...pe-sweden-archaeology-neolithic-a8670986.html
The paper:
https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(18)31464-8

Another aspect why the "plague hypothesis" as the major explanation is failing: Where did the steppe males got all the healthy, fertile young local females from, if the plague "wiped out Stone Age farmers in Europe"? A plague could only have weakened the local population somewhat more than the steppe people and even that is not proven yet.

Ancient plague may have impacted people who are Rh negative less if we follow the pattern of diseases of viral origin. Blood type frequencies in Europe could have been altered by the plague. Even in the case of COVID-19, the pattern seems to be continued with lower numbers of infected individuals dying among those with Rh(D) negative blood types.
https://www.rhesusnegative.net/stay...f-45-rh-and-1-out-of-8-rh-patients-nyp-cuimc/

Other bloodgroup factors played in too, always and even now with Covid-19. Bloodgroup B might have spread in various ways, just to give a hint. But in the end every bloodgroup has advantages to some diseases and disadvantages to others.
 
Another aspect why the "plague hypothesis" as the major explanation is failing: Where did the steppe males got all the healthy, fertile young local females from, if the plague "wiped out Stone Age farmers in Europe"? A plague could only have weakened the local population somewhat more than the steppe people and even that is not proven yet.



Other bloodgroup factors played in too, always and even now with Covid-19. Bloodgroup B might have spread in various ways, just to give a hint. But in the end every bloodgroup has advantages to some diseases and disadvantages to others.
Yes, I know, but thanks for the "hint". Overall, B hasn't spread significantly in Europe. The overall advantages seem to lie in O.
 
Yes, I know, but thanks for the "hint". Overall, B hasn't spread significantly in Europe. The overall advantages seem to lie in O.

Depends on the diesease in question:
Type O blood group is associated with increased incidence of plague, cholera, mumps, and tuberculosis infections; type A blood group is associated with increased incidence of smallpox and Pseudomonas aeruginosa infection; type B blood group is associated with increased incidence of gonorrhea, tuberculosis, Streptococcus pneumoniae, E. coli, and salmonella infections; and type AB blood group is associated with increased incidence of smallpox, E. coli, and salmonella infections.

Table 2 is quite informative:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5061611/table/T2/?report=objectonly

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5061611/

Leprosy is not mentioned in this study, but in older ones there was a relationship with blood groups postulated as well:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1468595/pdf/jmedgene00376-0061.pdf

But you are right, blood type 0 might have been advantaged in face of the plague and 0 is actually more common in Western Europe. B is more common in the East. Do you know of a statistical summary of the bloodtypes of European foragers, Neolithics and steppe people for a comparison?

Edit: I saw you were deep into that subject years ago already, so I guess you know all this (y)
 
Depends on the diesease in question:


Table 2 is quite informative:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5061611/table/T2/?report=objectonly

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5061611/

Leprosy is not mentioned in this study, but in older ones there was a relationship with blood groups postulated as well:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1468595/pdf/jmedgene00376-0061.pdf

But you are right, blood type 0 might have been advantaged in face of the plague and 0 is actually more common in Western Europe. B is more common in the East. Do you know of a statistical summary of the bloodtypes of European foragers, Neolithics and steppe people for a comparison?

Unfortunately only the one by Matthieson ( https://www.rhesusnegative.net/staynegative/blood-groups-in-ancient-europe-2/ ) and this one that needs translating:
https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/ma...alleli-i-antygenow-z-ukladu-grupowego-krwi-rh
There are a few studies out there on life-expectancy based on blood type and I remember the European one showing lowest for B and the Asian one highest for B.
 
Depends on the diesease in question:


Table 2 is quite informative:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5061611/table/T2/?report=objectonly

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5061611/

Leprosy is not mentioned in this study, but in older ones there was a relationship with blood groups postulated as well:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1468595/pdf/jmedgene00376-0061.pdf

But you are right, blood type 0 might have been advantaged in face of the plague and 0 is actually more common in Western Europe. B is more common in the East. Do you know of a statistical summary of the bloodtypes of European foragers, Neolithics and steppe people for a comparison?

Edit: I saw you were deep into that subject years ago already, so I guess you know all this (y)

Haha... no... some, far from all. :)
 
Unfortunately only the one by Matthieson ( https://www.rhesusnegative.net/staynegative/blood-groups-in-ancient-europe-2/ ) and this one that needs translating:
https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/ma...alleli-i-antygenow-z-ukladu-grupowego-krwi-rh
There are a few studies out there on life-expectancy based on blood type and I remember the European one showing lowest for B and the Asian one highest for B.

Thanks for the links. This would be big if true:
If we compute expected phenotypic frequencies, this suggests that around around 65% of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers would have been type O, compared to around 40% in present-day Europeans, and around 40% of Steppe-ancestry individuals would have been Rh-, compared to around 24% of hunter-gatherers, 4% of early farmers, and about 16% of present-day Europeans.

https://www.rhesusnegative.net/staynegative/blood-groups-in-ancient-europe-2/

Because if this is true, it would mean that pre-steppe and mixed males would have had a higher probability of causing a problematic pregnancy in steppe ancestry women. I doubt all steppe people would have had the same frequency, but for some this could have been an issue. It might have been even interpreted as a bad omen and fate for such matings. Never read that steppe ancestry was related to increased Rh- before.
 
Thanks for the links. This would be big if true:


https://www.rhesusnegative.net/staynegative/blood-groups-in-ancient-europe-2/

Because if this is true, it would mean that pre-steppe and mixed males would have had a higher probability of causing a problematic pregnancy in steppe ancestry women. I doubt all steppe people would have had the same frequency, but for some this could have been an issue. It might have been even interpreted as a bad omen and fate for such matings. Never read that steppe ancestry was related to increased Rh- before.

Absolutely. I had contacted Mathieson myself and know for a fact he has seen the questions. I asked for specific answers related to methods of coming up with these numbers. He hasn't replied to me.
However:
It would make sense looking at high frequency of Rh(D) negative phenotype among offspring. Northern Ireland 27%+, parts of Scotland 30% and above.
It would be interesting to know the blood type frequencies among the Proto-Basques though before and after the Proto-Celtic invasion.
I also have to consider the possibility that the Rh(D) negative frequencies differed between the Yamnaya who went out to conquer and those who stayed behind.
 
I also have to consider the possibility that the Rh(D) negative frequencies differed between the Yamnaya who went out to conquer and those who stayed behind.

The high frequency of Rh- in Basques is really interesting, since they largely kept the LBA-Iron Age ancestry of Iberian Beakers with just little admixture. I really doubt that the frequency of Rh- was the same for all steppe people, though its possible. Some tribes might have gone up, others down in numbers. For those up in numbers (how about Bell Beaker?!), this would be a big issue with foreign/mixed males.
 
The high frequency of Rh- in Basques is really interesting, since they largely kept the LBA-Iron Age ancestry of Iberian Beakers with just little admixture. I really doubt that the frequency of Rh- was the same for all steppe people, though its possible. Some tribes might have gone up, others down in numbers. For those up in numbers (how about Bell Beaker?!), this would be a big issue with foreign/mixed males.
This may be considered "out there" by many, but there are plenty of studies showing health (mental and physical) differences between those with Rh negative and those with positive phenotypes. Personality traits have been strongly indicated likely based on genes more frequent among Rh negatives (common ancestry traits?). So when someone refers to the "wanderlust gene" for example (The DRD4-7R gene affects the brain's dopamine levels, which in turn shapes your behaviour and motivation, which leads to increased risk taking), I see a possibility that this gene may be more present in people who are Rh(D) negative.
 
Ancient plague may have impacted people who are Rh negative less if we follow the pattern of diseases of viral origin. Blood type frequencies in Europe could have been altered by the plague. Even in the case of COVID-19, the pattern seems to be continued with lower numbers of infected individuals dying among those with Rh(D) negative blood types.
View attachment 12038
COVID-19 deaths: 1 out of 45 Rh- and 1 out of 8 Rh+ patients (NYP/CUIMC)
Yes, I'm aware of RH- being way more common among Steppe people. If it's true it may protect against plague, as blood type O possibly, I wonder if it would have been positively selected in Steppe even before the migrations, for this very reason, apart other possible genes favoring immunity. Also, could this factor have been a problem especially in the first peaceful contacts? If I'm not mistaken, early Steppe people were already rich in "farmer" mtDNA, no? T, H, J... Not sure about K (perhaps some types came from "farmers" too), since it was already present in Mesolithic Europe, I guess.
There's also ABO incompatibility. It may cause pathological jaundice in newborns, but the effects are less common and usually mild compared to RH incompatibility effects.
Anyway, this is speculative. The factors involved must have been several, from climate change to violence and possibly others. Plus, again: as that researcher said, it's still lacking the "smoking gun" for their theory.

Firetown, btw, Riverman said you were deep into the subject, so I have a question. A is also a phynotype, associated either to genotype AA or AO. If O (always OO, naturally) has some advantage over A in certain aspects, could it be possible that AO genotype has some advantage over AA?
I know both my parents are AO because their phenotypes are A at the same time I have a brother who is O. Checking this sheet and my own 23andMe results, I guess I'm AO as well. (If anyone decide to check it too, notice that the Orientation of these SNPs at SNPedia is "minus".)

@Riverman
Yeah. Directly killing by the plague, in isolation, apparently could not explain this huge decline. It was perhaps part of the story, but not all the story. "If" it played some important role, it possibly did it by weakening those societies, as you suggested.
Resistence to Covid-19 is perhaps related to resistence to HIV and plague too, and it's interesting to notice a sex bias, given the fact that the genetics of immunity involves the X. I shared this link in another thread, and it may interest you:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-your-genes-predispose-you-to-covid-19/

As for Basques, not sure, but perhaps a founder effect? (Interestingly, they have a very high frequency of R1b, and a relatively high frequency of mtDNA U as well.)
 
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