All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago

Well you might use it yourself, because the earliest Metal Mines are from Serbia, way before anything like Kura-Araxe or Sumerians(???!!!)

Lol, was going to say - though it is possible lead metallurgy is West Asian in origin, the overall evidence still points to a Balkan nucleus. As I've said before, at the very least for me personally, open discussion with Angela can be difficult when she comes across either viewpoints or people (e.g. me) she doesn't like. I get infractions all the time for the silliest things, always from her.

And to Angela: no, you can't just go ahead and give me an infraction for that as always ends up happening between us - besides, I WANT to have open discussion with you, just as I would with any other clearly reasonable person, which you clearly are.
 
I have not the precise CI but based on a mean for every subcategory, it would gave a proxi of CI=75,8 (surely a bit less), so in fact dolicho-meso; these neolithic of Portugal (all of them or???) were in fact a mix of EEF and at least 20% of WHG, and apparently in Western mediterranea the most mesocephals were among the HG's descendants - at the individual level, the mean of the new southern types in Neolithic was almost everywhere 72-73... I 'll look what I can find about Hittits, but even if only an increase of CI from say 75 to 82 as a mean, if they are true Hittits, it signifies a new pops introgression - The Egyptians during the Sea People war depicted the Hittits as round headed, rather gross featured: but is this science?
 
Does anyone know if Anatolian has words for agriculture?

I only have an Encyclopedia Brittanica refererence, for what that's worth:

Encyclopedia Brittanica said:
Although the Hattian and Hurrian peoples did influence Hittite culture, their contributions to the Hittite language were mostly limited to terms for local flora, fauna, and a few other categories. Comparisons of Hittite agricultural terms and those of other Indo-European subgroups indicate that the “Anatolians” seceded from the parent group before the creation of a common agricultural nomenclature

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Anatolian-languages
 
Lol, was going to say - though it is possible lead metallurgy is West Asian in origin. As I've said before, at the very least for me personally, open discussion with Angela can be difficult when she comes across either viewpoints or people (e.g. me) she doesn't like. I get infractions all the time for the silliest things, always from her.

And to Angela - no, you can't just go ahead and give me an infraction for that as always ends up happening between us - besides, I WANT to have open discussion with you, just as I would with any other clearly reasonable person, which you clearly are.

As i'm concerned, everything from Balkans > Anatolia > South Caucasus might be related by long distance trade already before the Neolithic. Who did what first into the Balkans or the Middle-East ( Metallurgy, Wagons, Wheel ), the response is probably " both ".
 
Lol, was going to say - though it is possible lead metallurgy is West Asian in origin, the overall evidence still points to a Balkan nucleus. As I've said before, at the very least for me personally, open discussion with Angela can be difficult when she comes across either viewpoints or people (e.g. me) she doesn't like. I get infractions all the time for the silliest things, always from her.

And to Angela: no, you can't just go ahead and give me an infraction for that as always ends up happening between us - besides, I WANT to have open discussion with you, just as I would with any other clearly reasonable person, which you clearly are.
It really doesn't matter. If you have something to say, everybody or almost, will read it and juge it with their own sensibilites.
 
As i'm concerned, everything from Balkans > Anatolia > South Caucasus might be related by long distance trade already before the Neolithic. Who did what first into the Balkans or the Middle-East ( Metallurgy, Wagons, Wheel ), the response is probably " both ".

Well somebody had to do it first, it clearly can't have been simultaneous. With farming, different groups seem to have learnt from one another, but with metallurgy I'm not so sure that's the case. In its earliest stages, given it involves a lot of skill and also put you at the top of the social hierarchy, it seems to be associated with migration, in my opinion at least.
 
It really doesn't matter. If you have something to say, everybody or almost, will read it and juge it with their own sensibilites.

It does matter when considering Eupedia as a forum for discussion, though. And also, it clearly matters in terms of infractions - most* of the time, it is either due to forced sensitivity (i.e. "How dare you be so rude to me") or in many cases due to upset about topic of discussion (so when I would discuss topics like this, and link them to things like migration of a population that had some level of red hair, I LITERALLY got given infractions from Jovialis and Angela - Maciamo had to step in and stop them at first, not least because he himself is impartial to a bit of R1b and rufosity!)

*EDIT: In fact, it isn't most of the time - it's ALL of the time (I've gone through my eight infractions for this year so far, and all were bogus).
 
abstract (ancien typology, I know)
Coon on ancient races of Anatolia:
Let us first examine what Bronze Age skeletal material there is in Asia Minor. So far, all of it comes from two sites, Alishar H?y?k, which, in its later periods, was a Hittite city, and Hissarlik, the seventh level of Which was Homer?s Troy. Both were important centers in the Bronze Age. At Alishar, fifty-three skulls have been studied, from seven archaeological periods, ranging from the earliest Copper Age, dated from between 2600 and 2300 B.C., to the Osmanli invasion.2

Ten crania from the earliest period (two ?Chalcolithic,? eight Copper Age) are uniformly Danubian in type, both metrically and morphologically. The small, high-vaulted, somewhat infantile dolicho- and mesocephalic form, with small face and mesorrhine to chamaerrhine noses, is no different from that found at roughly the same time at Anau, at Mariupol, in the Kiev Government, and in the Danube Valley, in association with Neolithic cultures. Two others, which are longer, may belong to a Megalithic or Corded variety.The unity of the early food-producing peoples on both sides of the Caucasus and Black Sea is therefore indicated, and from the racial standpoint, the Danubians could have come to central Europe from either South Russia or Anatolia, or both.

In the second and third periods at Alishar, dated between 2300 and 1500 B.C., and called the Early Bronze Age, brachycephalic skulls appeared, and these persisted through the period of the Hittite Empire, for several centuries after 1500 B.C. The crania are large, low vaulted, and only moderately brachycephalic, with lambdoid flattening, and moderate browridges. The faces are of medium length, and narrow, although somewhat broader than those of the earlier Danubian type. The stature of the one male observed was tall, 174 cm.3

Not all of the Hittite Empire crania are brachycephalic. A long-headed variety, which seems to have replaced or outnumbered the brachycephals by the time of the Phrygian invasions, is both longer and lower vaulted than the Danubian type of the Copper Age; it is characterized by a very prominent nasal skeleton of true Near Eastern form, with little nasion depression. Bas-relief sculptures of historic Hittites reproduce this hook-nosed, open-eyed type of countenance.

The sequence of racial types in Asia Minor during the metal ages probably runs somewhat as follows: the earliest food-producing people were the same as those in western Turkestan and southern Russia. The latter probably came in earlier times from the highland belt of which Anatolia forms a part. Shortly before 2000 B.C., a moderately brachycephalic type, with tall stature, entered Anatolia from regions yet to be determined, followed by a low-vaulted, hawk-nosed Mediterranean form, which we have named Cappadocian,? and which is well known in the present day Near East. True Arrnenoids or Dinarics were not, apparently, common in early times.
 
I think the argument is that farming/animal husbandry came from Old European farmers (Criş/Körös Culture and Cucuteni-Tripolye Culture) who had penetrated to the Dniester and was adopted by foragers occupying the river valleys. To what degree other influences/migrations came from the Caucasus is unclear. It was the domestication of the horse and the adoption of the wheel (wagons) that allowed people to develop a fully pastoral economy and move out of the river valleys and onto the steppes.

https://www.ling.upenn.edu/~rnoyer/courses/51/Ling512011PIENeolithic.pdf
 
Well somebody had to do it first, it clearly can't have been simultaneous. With farming, different groups seem to have learnt from one another, but with metallurgy I'm not so sure that's the case. In its earliest stages, given it involves a lot of skill and also put you at the top of the social hierarchy, it seems to be associated with migration, in my opinion at least.

Metallurgy seems to be first from Serbia and Northern Mesopotamia from the same time frame and Lepenski Vir and Kotias Klde have the same mtdna as H13. It might be that Metallurgy is actually born with transmission of the older Obsidian Trade with a " instinctive next step " both in the offshoots of Anatolia, meaning South Caucasus and Balkans.
 
It does matter when considering Eupedia as a forum for discussion, though. And also, it clearly matters in terms of infractions - most* of the time, it is either due to forced sensitivity (i.e. "How dare you be so rude to me") or in many cases due to upset about topic of discussion (so when I would discuss topics like this, and link them to things like migration of a population that had some level of red hair, I LITERALLY got given infractions from Jovialis and Angela - Maciamo had to step in and stop them at first, not least because he himself is impartial to a bit of R1b and rufosity!)

*EDIT: In fact, it isn't most of the time - it's ALL of the time (I've gone through my eight infractions for this year so far, and all were bogus).

Well i was banned for the same reason, but i dont want to really enter into that " triggered " mode. So i'm telling you, if you are writing something, individual people gonna juge over their own sensibilities, so it doesn't really matter.
 
abstract (ancien typology, I know)
Coon on ancient races of Anatolia:
Let us first examine what Bronze Age skeletal material there is in Asia Minor. So far, all of it comes from two sites, Alishar H�y�k, which, in its later periods, was a Hittite city, and Hissarlik, the seventh level of Which was Homer�s Troy. Both were important centers in the Bronze Age. At Alishar, fifty-three skulls have been studied, from seven archaeological periods, ranging from the earliest Copper Age, dated from between 2600 and 2300 B.C., to the Osmanli invasion.2
Ten crania from the earliest period (two �Chalcolithic,� eight Copper Age) are uniformly Danubian in type, both metrically and morphologically. The small, high-vaulted, somewhat infantile dolicho- and mesocephalic form, with small face and mesorrhine to chamaerrhine noses, is no different from that found at roughly the same time at Anau, at Mariupol, in the Kiev Government, and in the Danube Valley, in association with Neolithic cultures. Two others, which are longer, may belong to a Megalithic or Corded variety.The unity of the early food-producing peoples on both sides of the Caucasus and Black Sea is therefore indicated, and from the racial standpoint, the Danubians could have come to central Europe from either South Russia or Anatolia, or both.
In the second and third periods at Alishar, dated between 2300 and 1500 B.C., and called the Early Bronze Age, brachycephalic skulls appeared, and these persisted through the period of the Hittite Empire, for several centuries after 1500 B.C. The crania are large, low vaulted, and only moderately brachycephalic, with lambdoid flattening, and moderate browridges. The faces are of medium length, and narrow, although somewhat broader than those of the earlier Danubian type. The stature of the one male observed was tall, 174 cm.3
Not all of the Hittite Empire crania are brachycephalic. A long-headed variety, which seems to have replaced or outnumbered the brachycephals by the time of the Phrygian invasions, is both longer and lower vaulted than the Danubian type of the Copper Age; it is characterized by a very prominent nasal skeleton of true Near Eastern form, with little nasion depression. Bas-relief sculptures of historic Hittites reproduce this hook-nosed, open-eyed type of countenance.
The sequence of racial types in Asia Minor during the metal ages probably runs somewhat as follows: the earliest food-producing people were the same as those in western Turkestan and southern Russia. The latter probably came in earlier times from the highland belt of which Anatolia forms a part. Shortly before 2000 B.C., a moderately brachycephalic type, with tall stature, entered Anatolia from regions yet to be determined, followed by a low-vaulted, hawk-nosed Mediterranean form, which we have named Cappadocian,� and which is well known in the present day Near East. True Arrnenoids or Dinarics were not, apparently, common in early times.

Can you look at the Schela Cladovei skull and tell me what you think about it? I know you have high physical anthropolgy knowledge.
 
Well you might use it yourself, because the earliest Metal Mines are from Serbia, way before anything like Kura-Araxe or Sumerians(???!!!)

I'm sorry, but the presence of a mine does not indicate that the local people living in the area of the mine were the first to develop metallurgy. Would that mean that someone excavating "Solomon's mines" was supposed to deduce that the locals were the ones to have developed the technology and trade which made finding ore sources so very important?

You also would need to carefully define what you mean by metallurgy: pounding native copper into ornaments, extraction metallurgy into crucibles, furnace smelting? Also, are you talking about gold metallurgy, copper metallurgy, or bronze metallurgy?

I would not suggest turning to Wiki. The European Nordicists have erased 90% of the information which used to be present.

Much better to read something like
"Nissim Amzallag, "From Metallurgy to Bronze Age Civilizations
"
https://www.academia.edu/12054307/From_Metallurgy_to_Bronze_Age_Civilizations_-_The_Synthetic_Theory

For fairness, you can read some responses, although they don't much help your case.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228417432_A_Chalcolithic_Error_Rebuttal_to_Amzallag_2009

Response to the response:
https://www.academia.edu/1970099/The_exchanges_of_copper_in_the_Ancient_Middle_East

This paper is also important. As you can see, it is quite clear that Bronze metallurgy came from the Caucasus (including the Kura Araxes culture). So, to the extent it involved a movement of genes as well as technology, it almost certainly was a J2 phenomenon.
https://www.academia.edu/1970099/The_exchanges_of_copper_in_the_Ancient_Middle_East

Things upon which all scientists, to my knowledge, are in broad agreement, can be found here.

See:
"The development of metallurgy in Southwest Asia began long before the applicationof fire to naturally occurring metals. Indeed, the use of blue and green copper oresfor beads, pendants and pigments was a critical step in the Neolithic, occurring atearly agricultural and agro-pastoralist sites dating to the eleventh–ninth millennium BC(Figure 1a) at sites such as Shanidar Cave and Zawi Chemi in north-eastern Iraq, HallanC¸ emi in eastern Turkey and Rosh Horesha in Israel (Yener 2000; Bar-Yosef Mayer &Porat 2008). The increased working of naturally-occurring or ‘native’ copper as well ascopper and lead ores is demonstrated at sites such as Cayon¨ u Tepesi in eastern Turkey, ¨where metallographic analyses have shown evidence of annealing c. 8000 BC, indicatingthe early application of heat to the production process (Maddin et al. 1999). Native copperexploitation flourished in this core area through the seventh millennium BC while othermetals, notably lead and (in the early sixth millennium BC) meteoritic iron, appear for thefirst time (Schoop 1999). Although the copper was probably still native, lead objects, suchas the bracelet from Yarim Tepe in northern Iraq, if not actually made of lead (they havenever been analysed), were probably smelted (Muller-Karpe 1990)."

https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.e...name=Development_of_metallurgy_in_Eurasia.pdf

glku8SY.png


ybtN6T9.png


I will ignore your rudeness. However, I would contemplate, if I were you, that such a response to more complete knowledge by someone else and particularly, it seems, by a woman, merely highlights the most extreme kinds of insecurity.
 
I'm sorry, but the presence of a mine does not indicate that the local people living in the area of the mine were the first to develop metallurgy. Would that mean that someone excavating "Solomon's mines" was supposed to deduce that the locals were the ones to have developed the technology and trade which made finding ore sources so very important?

You also would need to carefully define what you mean by metallurgy: pounding native copper into ornaments, extraction metallurgy into crucibles, furnace smelting? Also, are you talking about gold metallurgy, copper metallurgy, or bronze metallurgy?

I would not suggest turning to Wiki. The European Nordicists have erased 90% of the information which used to be present.

Much better to read something like
"Nissim Amzallag, "From Metallurgy to Bronze Age Civilizations
"
https://www.academia.edu/12054307/From_Metallurgy_to_Bronze_Age_Civilizations_-_The_Synthetic_Theory

For fairness, you can read some responses, although they don't much help your case.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228417432_A_Chalcolithic_Error_Rebuttal_to_Amzallag_2009

Response to the response:
https://www.academia.edu/1970099/The_exchanges_of_copper_in_the_Ancient_Middle_East

This paper is also important. As you can see, it is quite clear that Bronze metallurgy came from the Caucasus (including the Kura Araxes culture). So, to the extent it involved a movement of genes as well as technology, it almost certainly was a J2 phenomenon.
https://www.academia.edu/1970099/The_exchanges_of_copper_in_the_Ancient_Middle_East

Things upon which all scientists, to my knowledge, are in broad agreement, can be found here.

See:
"The development of metallurgy in Southwest Asia began long before the applicationof fire to naturally occurring metals. Indeed, the use of blue and green copper oresfor beads, pendants and pigments was a critical step in the Neolithic, occurring atearly agricultural and agro-pastoralist sites dating to the eleventh–ninth millennium BC(Figure 1a) at sites such as Shanidar Cave and Zawi Chemi in north-eastern Iraq, HallanC¸ emi in eastern Turkey and Rosh Horesha in Israel (Yener 2000; Bar-Yosef Mayer &Porat 2008). The increased working of naturally-occurring or ‘native’ copper as well ascopper and lead ores is demonstrated at sites such as Cayon¨ u Tepesi in eastern Turkey, ¨where metallographic analyses have shown evidence of annealing c. 8000 BC, indicatingthe early application of heat to the production process (Maddin et al. 1999). Native copperexploitation flourished in this core area through the seventh millennium BC while othermetals, notably lead and (in the early sixth millennium BC) meteoritic iron, appear for thefirst time (Schoop 1999). Although the copper was probably still native, lead objects, suchas the bracelet from Yarim Tepe in northern Iraq, if not actually made of lead (they havenever been analysed), were probably smelted (Muller-Karpe 1990)."

https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.e...name=Development_of_metallurgy_in_Eurasia.pdf

glku8SY.png


ybtN6T9.png


I will ignore your rudeness. However, I would contemplate, if I were you, that such a response to more complete knowledge by someone else and particularly, it seems, by a woman, merely highlights the most extreme kinds of insecurity.

European Nordicists have overrun Wikipedia?
 
Lol, was going to say - though it is possible lead metallurgy is West Asian in origin, the overall evidence still points to a Balkan nucleus. As I've said before, at the very least for me personally, open discussion with Angela can be difficult when she comes across either viewpoints or people (e.g. me) she doesn't like. I get infractions all the time for the silliest things, always from her.

And to Angela: no, you can't just go ahead and give me an infraction for that as always ends up happening between us - besides, I WANT to have open discussion with you, just as I would with any other clearly reasonable person, which you clearly are.

If I gave infractions for unfamiliarity with the facts and academic papers, or indeed gross mis-statements of fact, faulty reasoning, etc.I would have given you so many infractions that you would have been banned months ago.

People receive infractions for insulting comments, comments designed to provoke, to t-roll, etc.

You might consider why so many of our posters, people like Ygorcs, Markod, Moesan, to only name a few, never have these problems. It's because they are not only learned; they are also courteous. You might also note that people with whom I very rarely agree, such as Epoch, never get infractions.

I would suggest that you model your behavior on theirs.

As to discussing matters with you, I'd be happy to when you produce actual DATA, from actual papers, reasoned logically. I'm not aware that this is usually or even often the case with your posts.
 
European Nordicists have overrun Wikipedia?

Wtf is that 10'000BC metallurgy in the Mesopotamia? It's very new to me... As far as Nordicism, i'm gonna pass, because i'm more likely look like their hated Jews physically than themselves so...

More seriously, the oldest " Copper " artifact that we have from humanity [ wich is also the oldest metal to be worked because it can be modeled cold ] are from Serbia and Northern Mesopotamia from the same time frame.
 
I totally misquote the post i wanted to, but the interested might know, so.
 
Wtf is that 10'000BC metallurgy in the Mesopotamia? It's very new to me... As far as Nordicism, i'm gonna pass, because i'm more likely look like their hated Jews physically than themselves so...

More seriously, the oldest " Copper " artifact that we have from humanity [ wich is also the oldest metal to be worked because it can be modeled cold ] are from Serbia and Northern Mesopotamia from the same time frame.

Well, the oldest is in Serbia - no questions asked. Shortly followed by Northern Mesopotamia. Also, did you see the post of mine Angela deleted?
 
Well, the oldest is in Serbia - no questions asked. Shortly followed by Northern Mesopotamia. Also, did you see the post of mine Angela deleted?

I did not, but seriously, as a guy 1 year older than you in subscribe in the site, it's not that much of a deal. For what i recall of my own bans, they were somehow justified ; probably in the way they were meant or read. You can still wright right now, keep the " no [ weird controversy ] ". If you really feel " ostracised ", go on Anthrogenica, it's also very good and more " open? ".

Like everyone from Me, Olympus Mons, Tomenable and others were ban for, saying our Pensée in a fierce way, but we ain't gone yet.
 
I did not, but seriously, as a guy 1 year older than you in subscribe in the site, it's not that much of a deal. For what i recall of my own bans, they were somehow justified ; probably in the way they were meant or read. You can still wright right now, keep the " no [ weird controversy ] ". If you really feel " ostracised ", go on Anthrogenica, it's also very good and more " open? ".

Like everyone from Me, Olympus Mons, Tomenable and others were ban for, saying our Pensée in a fierce way, but we ain't gone yet.

I won't dwell on it as I can see why it would be upsetting to Angela, so I'll put myself above these childish games. But she does need to realise when her moderation becomes more personal than anything else.
 

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