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Thread: All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago

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    All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago

    All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago, according to David Reich.

    https://www.iflscience.com/plants-an...000-years-ago/

    The original reference is newscientist, but it is under pay wall.

    However, I believe that current Iberian populations do not have too much Yamna contribution. How is that?

    1. Very few Yamna women went to Iberia, so even though all Iberian men were wiped out, women remained, and they gave their genes to their descendants
    2. There were other peoples that arrived later to Iberia, and gave other genes

    Are two possibilities. Which are the right ones?

    ... and just amazing the Yamna were able to completely wipe out all men in a big region. Violence? Diseases?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farstar View Post
    All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago, according to David Reich.

    https://www.iflscience.com/plants-an...000-years-ago/

    The original reference is newscientist, but it is under pay wall.

    However, I believe that current Iberian populations do not have too much Yamna contribution. How is that?

    1. Very few Yamna women went to Iberia, so even though all Iberian men were wiped out, women remained, and they gave their genes to their descendants
    2. There were other peoples that arrived later to Iberia, and gave other genes

    Are two possibilities. Which are the right ones?

    ... and just amazing the Yamna were able to completely wipe out all men in a big region. Violence? Diseases?
    Because maybe, just maybe, these people aren't descended from Yamnaya. It's gospel nowadays, but Steppe doesn't have to have come from Yamnaya...

    It's worth remembering that the Chalcolithic Balkans had SIGNIFICANT Steppe admix. My pet theory is basically in-line with Coon's origin of the Beaker folk, but regardless of whether this is correct or not, Steppe shouldn't always be equated with Yamnaya.

    IF R1b-L51 turns up on the Steppe, then we're talking.

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    I'll repost a repost, as it is clearly relevant speculation to this thread:

    "I'll repost my theory:

    "I personally imagine pre-L51 and pre-Z2103 splitting somewhere in the Balkans, or maybe Anatolia, with pre-L51 travelling (perhaps by sea) to Iberia and pre-Z2103 spreading somewhat Eastwards across West Asia. L51, part of the Iberian BBs and amongst typical Megalithic folk, would then travel to Central Europe (acquiring some more Steppe-like mtDNA lineages from Corded Ware women along the way), before expanding throughout Western Europe as part of the Unetice cultural complex. Z2103 would have both remained in West Asia, but also moved up into the Steppe, and from those people Yamnaya would expand into the Balkans. This entire process would be at least at first associated with the spread of metal (L23)."

    Any points of contention are welcome. There's a few key reasons why I believe this over the Steppe origin of L51 though, just for example the fact that there doesn't seem to be any cultures to find L51 in, with the assumption that it would have left a trace in the present-day location of its mother culture, assuming a Steppe origin. L51 is pretty much entirely confined to Western Europe, and the Balkan expansion of Yamnaya seems so clearly linked to the present day distribution of Z2103. Moreover, a lot of the earliest subclades of L51 are in Sardinia of all places, which points to this maritime theory strongly.

    L51 could have picked up Steppe admix from Corded folk, but it could easily have had Steppe admix to start with. Low noise of Steppe admix has been found in the Iberian Chalcolithic, and in this theory the carriers of this admix would have likely expanded from the Balkans, where there has been (obviously ignoring the Danubian farmer samples) a Steppe presence for a long time. I personally believe that the Balkan-Black Sea region is the original breeding ground of R1b, meaning a large Steppe presence among non-farmer samples (who were clear imports from the Neolithic Middle East, bred like rabbits, and can be paid little attention in this hypothesis) is to be expected, and has been found already (as one example, a Greek Neolithic sample has been found that even clusters with individuals of Northern European Corded Ware origin - Neolithic!)."

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    Oh, and not to mention that this invasion didn't even bring Indo-European languages to Iberia - that was at the hands of the Romans!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I'll repost a repost, as it is clearly relevant speculation to this thread:

    "I'll repost my theory:

    "I personally imagine pre-L51 and pre-Z2103 splitting somewhere in the Balkans, or maybe Anatolia, with pre-L51 travelling (perhaps by sea) to Iberia and pre-Z2103 spreading somewhat Eastwards across West Asia. L51, part of the Iberian BBs and amongst typical Megalithic folk, would then travel to Central Europe (acquiring some more Steppe-like mtDNA lineages from Corded Ware women along the way), before expanding throughout Western Europe as part of the Unetice cultural complex. Z2103 would have both remained in West Asia, but also moved up into the Steppe, and from those people Yamnaya would expand into the Balkans. This entire process would be at least at first associated with the spread of metal (L23)."

    Any points of contention are welcome. There's a few key reasons why I believe this over the Steppe origin of L51 though, just for example the fact that there doesn't seem to be any cultures to find L51 in, with the assumption that it would have left a trace in the present-day location of its mother culture, assuming a Steppe origin. L51 is pretty much entirely confined to Western Europe, and the Balkan expansion of Yamnaya seems so clearly linked to the present day distribution of Z2103. Moreover, a lot of the earliest subclades of L51 are in Sardinia of all places, which points to this maritime theory strongly.

    L51 could have picked up Steppe admix from Corded folk, but it could easily have had Steppe admix to start with. Low noise of Steppe admix has been found in the Iberian Chalcolithic, and in this theory the carriers of this admix would have likely expanded from the Balkans, where there has been (obviously ignoring the Danubian farmer samples) a Steppe presence for a long time. I personally believe that the Balkan-Black Sea region is the original breeding ground of R1b, meaning a large Steppe presence among non-farmer samples (who were clear imports from the Neolithic Middle East, bred like rabbits, and can be paid little attention in this hypothesis) is to be expected, and has been found already (as one example, a Greek Neolithic sample has been found that even clusters with individuals of Northern European Corded Ware origin - Neolithic!)."
    Nice to see someone with a badest reputation than me! ( jk)

    I think we should be cautious with that Corded Ware steppe-like mtdna. I think at the end, Corded women might have been way more europe neolithic than steppe-like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Nice to see someone with a badest reputation than me! ( jk)

    I think we should be cautious with that Corded Ware steppe-like mtdna. I think at the end, Corded women might have been way more europe neolithic than steppe-like.
    All I'm referring to there is the increase in Steppe mtDNA from BB to Unetice, as per Maciamo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Nice to see someone with a badest reputation than me! ( jk)

    I think we should be cautious with that Corded Ware steppe-like mtdna. I think at the end, Corded women might have been way more europe neolithic than steppe-like.
    What do you think of the theory though?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    What do you think of the theory though?
    Keep in mind that David Reich probably has a huge database of unpublished samples. I think if there was any evidence that L51 was in the west he'd probably adapt his views to fit the facts.

    I used to be convinced L51 diversified in LN/Chalcolithic Western Europe, but if it isn't there then modern phylogeographic diversity might be a result of large-scale population replacement.

    Irrespective of this, it will still be interesting to see where and why steppe males became L51, having been exclusively Z2103 previously. Vucedol and Hungarian Yamnaya still seem to have been Z2103 dominated. The TMRCA of 3700 B. C. and the 'Mediterranean' distribution of basal L51 clades do look weird and not very consistent with Yamnaya expansion for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Keep in mind that David Reich probably has a huge database of unpublished samples. I think if there was any evidence that L51 was in the west he'd probably adapt his views to fit the facts.

    I used to be convinced L51 diversified in LN/Chalcolithic Western Europe, but if it isn't there then modern phylogeographic diversity might be a result of large-scale population replacement.

    Irrespective of this, it will still be interesting to see where and why steppe males became L51, having been exclusively Z2103 previously. Vucedol and Hungarian Yamnaya still seem to have been Z2103 dominated.
    Agreed, but more so than that - can you identify a single Steppe/Eastern European culture that could be identified with L51? Because I sure can't... Bell Beaker makes a lot of sense EVEN with that Olalde paper showing them to be typical Megalithic I2 - the remains of the "true" Beaker folk in Spain are extremely sparse.

    And also, I keep having to say this, but Reich isn't some god. He used to think Northern Europeans were Caucasoid-Amerindian hybrids

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Agreed, but more so than that - can you identify a single Steppe/Eastern European culture that could be identified with L51? Because I sure can't...
    Nope, no idea. I edited the post and added the points about the TMRCA and 'Mediterranean' distribution of L51 basal clades. Very strange indeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Nope, no idea. I edited the post and added the points about the TMRCA and 'Mediterranean' distribution of L51 basal clades. Very strange indeed.
    I know this isn't how empiricism works, but it isn't really that much of a mystery, AT LEAST in terms of forming the most likely hypothesis. It's clearly the Beaker hypothesis. That, and the distribution of the Swastika and links of L23 to metallurgy (see http://archive.is/uGFGX - somewhat wacky, and I've changed my view quite a bit, but the essence is the same), makes me very confident in my hypothesis that I posted above. But we'll see with time.

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    Well actually I've changed my view so much that you may as well just look at what I posted above and ignore that archive link, but whatever. Ignoring details, tl;dr: Swatikas and L23 and metallurgy are all connected during the Chalcolithic.

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    On a bit of a ramble here, but what about this (Three individuals who lived in the Chalcolithic era (c. 5700–6250 years BP), found at the Areni-1 ("Bird's Eye") cave in the South Caucasus mountains (present-day Vayots Dzor Province, Armenia), was also identified as belonging to haplogroup L1a. The individual's genome also indicated that he had red hair and blue eyes.), and the connection of Gedrosian admixture to R1b and L (amongst others).

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    Valdiosera et al. (2018) studied 13 ancient Iberian individuals and they found the European farmer-associated haplogroup G2a2 and the European farmer-associated haplogroup H2 among the Early Neolithic individuals, while two Bronze Age males carried haplogroup R1b-M269 or R1b1a1a2. David Reich possibly referred to this study's data set to explain the population turnover in the Iberian Bronze Age.



    Nine of the 13 ancient Iberian individuals were found to carry mitochondrial haplogroups associated with European early farmers, namely K, J, N, and X (SI Appendix, Table S4.1), distributed throughout the Early Neolithic to the Bronze Age (6, 45). Two individuals have haplogroups HV0 and H, known in both European early farmers and hunter-gatherers (25, 45) and are present during the LNCA. Further, haplogroup U5, characteristic of hunter-gatherers (46, 47), is found in a Late Copper Age individual. Consistent with the mitochondrial haplogroup composition of the ancient Iberians, the Y chromosome composition (Dataset S1) displays a mix of haplogroups associated with both European farmers and hunter-gatherers. Among the Early Neolithic individuals, we find the European farmer-associated haplogroup G2a2 (9) and the European farmer-associated haplogroup H2 (1, 6), while in the LNCA we observe haplogroup I2, previously found in both hunter-gatherers and farmers (SI Appendix, Table S4.1) (1, 6). Both Bronze Age males carried haplogroup R1b-M269 (SI Appendix, Table S4.1), which is frequent among Late Neolithic and Bronze Age samples from other parts of Europe (4, 6). This uniparental marker composition is in agreement with the well-known admixture between resident hunter-gatherers and incoming farmers.
    Давайте вместе снова сделаем мир великий!

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    Reich is talking about their Olalde et al paper. We've discussed it extensively here:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ghlight=Olalde

    When it was a pre-print:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ghlight=Olalde


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    Not all because R1b is far from being 100% in modern Iberia.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    All Iberian men? So where does all the ~20% to as much as 55% of non-R1b Y-DNA haplogroups (depending on the region) come from, exclusively through Yamna-derived mixed EEF+Steppe men who migrated there during the Bronze Age? And why is the autosomal contribution of Yamnaya-like people so low in most of Iberia? I can definitely see a long-term replacement of Neolithic Iberia haplogroups with Pontic-Caspian Y-DNA haplogroups, but not through a massive and rapid "wiping out" of all Iberian males. Such a massive replacement would mean that nearly 50% of the genetic pool from which the later Iberians would be born would be Yamnaya-like. Instead, if what happened was a gradual, slow but relentless replacement caused by the different rates of reproductive success, favoring males with Yamna-derived male lineages, that relatively low autosomal contribution could be made easily compatible with the replacement of Y-DNA haplogroups in favor of Pontic-Caspian male lineages.

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    check Olalde 2017
    after the arrival of BB in Britain, these BB folks with steppe ancestry made up 90 % of the population
    yet the neolithic Y-DNA, which is I2a-S2639, I2a-Z161 and I2a-M284 still lives in Britain
    I2a-M284 were probably British HG who adopted farming
    but I2a-Z161 and I2a-L161.1, ancestral to I2a-S2639 were of Iberian origin
    both clades went practicaly extinct in Iberia
    but I doubt only Yamna is to blaim
    the 4 ka El Argar were intrusive too and very dominant in spreading bronze from the Iberian eastcoast
    those El Argar were not even Indo-European
    when the Phoenicians and Greeks arrived on the Iberian eastcoast, 'Iberian' languages were spoken there
    besides R1b, the 2nd largest Y-DNA in Iberia is J2

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I know this isn't how empiricism works, but it isn't really that much of a mystery, AT LEAST in terms of forming the most likely hypothesis. It's clearly the Beaker hypothesis. That, and the distribution of the Swastika and links of L23 to metallurgy (see http://archive.is/uGFGX - somewhat wacky, and I've changed my view quite a bit, but the essence is the same), makes me very confident in my hypothesis that I posted above. But we'll see with time.

    I've thought about Mesopotamia as the center of the ideological transition that took place in the Chalcolithic and the Bronze Age before. Another noteworthy development is that we find in those Mesopotamian Chalcolithic cultures the first evidence of male gods - Alberto Green wrote about this in his book "The Storm God in the Ancient Near East". It's certainly interesting, but it's probably too early to talk about the demic impact of these developments.

    As for BB and Coon: it certainly looks like Coon was right about mostly everything, for all his faults. It's still baffling to me how he predicted what we now know about the genetics of Central European & British BB with seemingly 100% accuracy - he even knew that the pop. replacement in Britain was close to complete. My mind would be blown if his hypothesis of BB origins turned out to be correct as well.

    If Coon was right there should be very few genuine Bell Beakers in Iberia, and most skeletons buried with Beaker implements would instead belong to the subjected Megalithic population.
    Last edited by markod; 02-10-18 at 11:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Agreed, but more so than that - can you identify a single Steppe/Eastern European culture that could be identified with L51? Because I sure can't... Bell Beaker makes a lot of sense EVEN with that Olalde paper showing them to be typical Megalithic I2 - the remains of the "true" Beaker folk in Spain are extremely sparse.

    And also, I keep having to say this, but Reich isn't some god. He used to think Northern Europeans were Caucasoid-Amerindian hybrids
    If a remember, modern distribution of R1b-L51 is very located in the Alps, not very in the Iberian Peninsula.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    I've thought about Mesopotamia as the center of the ideological transition that took place in the Chalcolithic and the Bronze Age before. Another noteworthy development is that we find in those Mesopotamian Chalcolithic cultures the first evidence of male gods - Alberto Green wrote about this in his book "The Storm God in the Ancient Near East". It's certainly interesting, but it's probably too early to talk about the demic impact of these developments.

    As for BB and Coon: it certainly looks like Coon was right about mostly everything, for all his faults. It's still baffling to me how he predicted what we now know about the genetics of Central European & British BB with seemingly 100% accuracy - he even knew that the pop. replacement in Britain was close to complete. My mind would be blown if his hypothesis of BB origins turned out to be correct as well.

    If Coon was right there should be very few genuine Bell Beakers in Iberia, and most skeletons buried with Beaker implements would instead belong to the subjected Megalithic population.
    Btw, i've intensively research for anthropologic fact after the Iron_Gates_HG paper of Mathiesen came out and what i've found is that one of the romanian one ( something like Corvul Ostruli ) is really " borreby-like ".

    Edit: It was Schela Cladovei and this is the boy.

    http://alexisphoenix.org/imagesromania2/schela1053.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    check Olalde 2017
    after the arrival of BB in Britain, these BB folks with steppe ancestry made up 90 % of the population
    yet the neolithic Y-DNA, which is I2a-S2639, I2a-Z161 and I2a-M284 still lives in Britain
    I2a-M284 were probably British HG who adopted farming
    but I2a-Z161 and I2a-L161.1, ancestral to I2a-S2639 were of Iberian origin
    both clades went practicaly extinct in Iberia
    but I doubt only Yamna is to blaim
    the 4 ka El Argar were intrusive too and very dominant in spreading bronze from the Iberian eastcoast
    those El Argar were not even Indo-European
    when the Phoenicians and Greeks arrived on the Iberian eastcoast, 'Iberian' languages were spoken there
    besides R1b, the 2nd largest Y-DNA in Iberia is J2
    Exactly right. This comment was probably just the typical misunderstanding and exaggeration of journalists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    And also, I keep having to say this, but Reich isn't some god. He used to think Northern Europeans were Caucasoid-Amerindian hybrids
    The guy is of course a fallible mortal like the rest of us, but when exactly did he say this?

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    Sloppy exaggeration.

    See:
    Patterson et al,

    "Population mixture is an important process in biology. We present a suite of methods for learning about population mixtures, implemented in a software package called ADMIXTOOLS, that support formal tests for whether mixture occurred and make it possible to infer proportions and dates of mixture. We also describe the development of a new single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) array consisting of 629,433 sites with clearly documented ascertainment that was specifically designed for population genetic analyses and that we genotyped in 934 individuals from 53 diverse populations. To illustrate the methods, we give a number of examples that provide new insights about the history of human admixture. The most striking finding is a clear signal of admixture into northern Europe, with one ancestral population related to present-day Basques and Sardinians and the other related to present-day populations of northeast Asia and the Americas. This likely reflects a history of admixture between Neolithic migrants and the indigenous Mesolithic population of Europe, consistent with recent analyses of ancient bones from Sweden and the sequencing of the genome of the Tyrolean “Iceman.”
    http://www.genetics.org/content/192/3/1065


    Patterson saw non-Sardinian Europeans as having North Eurasian like ancestry that links them to Amerindian populations, which was, of course, completely accurate. He got the "source" wrong, but that was before we had any ancient samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Not all because R1b is far from being 100% in modern Iberia.
    Right. I2a and G2a (original Proto-Basque y-DNA haplogroups), are still present.
    I have also revised the Basques' Y-DNA frequencies using four different sources (Underhill et al., Adams et al., Iberianroots and the study in link above) totalling 597 samples. There are only a few changes, but important ones. I2a decreased from 9% to 5% to the profit of E1b1b (increase from 1% to 2.5%) and G2a, which had 0% and now has 1.5%. We now have a pre-IE admixture suggesting a considerable West Asian admixture, since the total of G2a, J1 and J2 is 4.5%, about the same as the Paleolithic I2a1 (5%). The big question mark is E1b1b (2.5%), which would be Paleolithic as well as Neolithic, or even an influence of neighbouring Cantabria.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...or-the-Basques

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