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Thread: Lazaridis Bias of Individual Geneticists Ethics Discussion

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Miss interpretations and miss translation of historical documents with the purpose to mislead.....it is not a matter of narrow view.


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    Let's put it this way. Instead of pointing fingers, feel free to present sciencific research using a methodology which can be evaluated and falsified if incorrect. This is the beauty of science. You can participate yourself. Sitting back and refuting a peer reviewed research because someone has a certain origin is not productive. Try instead to refute the research scientifically. Shooting the messenger is not getting you anywhere.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Asking Albanians for a leap of faith towards this Lazaridis Greek person is too much. Many Venetian documents are been translated in Albanian nowadays, their Greek translation from well known Greek researchers is in many case simple forgery of facts.


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    What the heck are you people talking about? What does the paper on the Mycenaeans and Minoans have to do with the ancient authors or Venetian documents or even the difference between Arvanites and Greeks proper?

    The paper was an analysis of the autosomal admixture of these ancient people in terms of the Neolithic Europeans and the steppe people. Beyond that, it was to see if there was overlap between these ancient people and the modern Greek people in the publicly available datasets, samples NOT collected or chosen by the Reich Lab or Lazaridis in particular. Whether Lazaridis found the results personally gratifying is besides the point. Nobody can demand that someone have no preferences. What one demands is integrity in the WORK.

    If you have some problem with the nature of those datasets, do your homework, contact the people who collected them and find out how the samples were collected.

    Nobody cares whether the conclusions upset your view of the world. All anybody but the Albanians cares about is whether the conclusions of the paper are accurate. If you think they're inaccurate, pit your intellect and mathematical computational ability against theirs, and PROVE where they're wrong.

    If you continue you will just damage your own reputations more.

    I've read an awful lot of written material written by scientists or all types and non-scientists as well, and every major population genetics paper of the last ten years, and there is no better computational geneticist, statistician, general logical thinker and lucid writer than Iosif Lazaridis working today. If someone can be said to be in love with how someone's mind works, that's how I would describe it.

    This sniping from people who don't have a smattering of his intellect, education, or integrity is really sad.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    ...........
    Last edited by ihype02; 05-10-18 at 22:51.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    This sniping from people who don't have a smattering of his intellect, education, or integrity is really sad.[/QUOTE]

    Seriously .....how you come to this conclusion, you don’t even know the people here and their background.....it seems that you are a researcher, but the way you concluded here show that you lack a lot on your process, just like Lazaridis for Bubulina.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What the heck are you people talking about? What does the paper on the Mycenaeans and Minoans have to do with the ancient authors or Venetian documents or even the difference between Arvanites and Greeks proper?

    The paper was an analysis of the autosomal admixture of these ancient people in terms of the Neolithic Europeans and the steppe people. Beyond that, it was to see if there was overlap between these ancient people and the modern Greek people in the publicly available datasets, samples NOT collected or chosen by the Reich Lab or Lazaridis in particular. Whether Lazaridis found the results personally gratifying is besides the point. Nobody can demand that someone have no preferences. What one demands is integrity in the WORK.

    If you have some problem with the nature of those datasets, do your homework, contact the people who collected them and find out how the samples were collected.

    Nobody cares whether the conclusions upset your view of the world. All anybody but the Albanians cares about is whether the conclusions of the paper are accurate. If you think they're inaccurate, pit your intellect and mathematical computational ability against theirs, and PROVE where they're wrong.

    If you continue you will just damage your own reputations more.

    I've read an awful lot of written material written by scientists or all types and non-scientists as well, and every major population genetics paper of the last ten years, and there is no better computational geneticist, statistician, general logical thinker and lucid writer than Iosif Lazaridis working today. If someone can be said to be in love with how someone's mind works, that's how I would describe it.

    This sniping from people who don't have a smattering of his intellect, education, or integrity is really sad.
    So if you like what he writes keep reading him, we simply do not believe him. If Rich had written the stuff I had no problems. Do not try to influence others with your views!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What the heck are you people talking about? What does the paper on the Mycenaeans and Minoans have to do with the ancient authors or Venetian documents or even the difference between Arvanites and Greeks proper?

    The paper was an analysis of the autosomal admixture of these ancient people in terms of the Neolithic Europeans and the steppe people. Beyond that, it was to see if there was overlap between these ancient people and the modern Greek people in the publicly available datasets, samples NOT collected or chosen by the Reich Lab or Lazaridis in particular. Whether Lazaridis found the results personally gratifying is besides the point. Nobody can demand that someone have no preferences. What one demands is integrity in the WORK.

    If you have some problem with the nature of those datasets, do your homework, contact the people who collected them and find out how the samples were collected.

    Nobody cares whether the conclusions upset your view of the world. All anybody but the Albanians cares about is whether the conclusions of the paper are accurate. If you think they're inaccurate, pit your intellect and mathematical computational ability against theirs, and PROVE where they're wrong.

    If you continue you will just damage your own reputations more.

    I've read an awful lot of written material written by scientists or all types and non-scientists as well, and every major population genetics paper of the last ten years, and there is no better computational geneticist, statistician, general logical thinker and lucid writer than Iosif Lazaridis working today. If someone can be said to be in love with how someone's mind works, that's how I would describe it.

    This sniping from people who don't have a smattering of his intellect, education, or integrity is really sad.
    When someone writes a papper conflict of interests is declared! He simply is not believable for conflict of interest reasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    When someone writes a papper conflict of interests is declared! He simply is not believable for conflict of interest reasons.
    All he said was Mycenaeans=mostly Anatolian farmer + small amts of Caucasus and steppe. He then compared them to modern Greeks who seem to be mostly Mycenaean plus additional mixtures. What's the issue here?
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    When someone writes a papper conflict of interests is declared! He simply is not believable for conflict of interest reasons.
    Why would he have to DECLARE it? According to you it exists by reason of his birth.

    @Blevins,

    The posters who specialize in this constant anti-Greek rhetoric and name calling have not shown that they even UNDERSTAND these papers, much less have the capability to criticize them.

    @Davef,

    There IS no issue here, other than the typical Balkan warfare based on no facts or logic.

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    The entire point of this was that Lazaridis considers Bubulina pure Greek and used her as a point of reference for possibly explaining Cretan Greek admixture in India. And that this is worrying for a geneticist. If someone argues culturally she is greek thats different.

    Thats it. When a high profile and extremely powerful geneticist totally erases her being Arvanite purposefully or not, its worrying.

    If we had Bublinas dna and Lazaridis tested and analyzed it we can safely surmise he would label her DNa results as Greek based on how he wrote about her.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The entire point of this was that Lazaridis considers Bubulina pure Greek and used her as a point of reference for possibly explaining Cretan Greek admixture in India. And that this is worrying for a geneticist. If someone argues culturally she is greek thats different.

    Thats it. When a high profile and extremely powerful geneticist totally erases her being Arvanite purposefully or not, its worrying.

    If we had Bublinas dna and Lazaridis tested and analyzed it we can safely surmise he would label her DNa results as Greek based on how he wrote about her.
    When he does an analysis of modern Greeks vs Albanians and uses samples he collects, I'll pay attention.

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    It's no surprise that ancient DNA triggers distrust in the likes of thread starter. Such DNA will continue to discredit racial/ethnic nationalist narratives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    When someone writes a papper conflict of interests is declared! He simply is not believable for conflict of interest reasons.
    Has Turkey admitted the Young Turks' genocides happened yet? How many of Yugoslavia's massacres have their government admitted to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The entire point of this was that Lazaridis considers Bubulina pure Greek and used her as a point of reference for possibly explaining Cretan Greek admixture in India. And that this is worrying for a geneticist. If someone argues culturally she is greek thats different.

    Thats it. When a high profile and extremely powerful geneticist totally erases her being Arvanite purposefully or not, its worrying.

    If we had Bublinas dna and Lazaridis tested and analyzed it we can safely surmise he would label her DNa results as Greek based on how he wrote about her.
    Many Greeks don't know that Arvanites are of Albanian origin, it might've been a mistake. Most of Arvanites feel insulted when you tell them that they are of Albanian origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Why would he have to DECLARE it? According to you it exists by reason of his birth.

    @Blevins,

    The posters who specialize in this constant anti-Greek rhetoric and name calling have not shown that they even UNDERSTAND these papers, much less have the capability to criticize them.

    @Davef,

    There IS no issue here, other than the typical Balkan warfare based on no facts or logic.
    What paper are you talking about (this thread is not about any paper).... here we have an example hopefully of ignorance from Lazaridis....than we have you calling us not educated enough, unethical, etc.....because we do not share the same view for your idol Lazaridis. As I said previously, you do not know most of the people here (so be careful with your conclusions) and there is no anti-Greek, is just reasonable misbelieve....based upon on Greek past researchers....read them and you will understand were we come from.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    So if you like what he writes keep reading him, we simply do not believe him. If Rich had written the stuff I had no problems. Do not try to influence others with your views!
    Like I said, you don't understand the papers or how any of this works. Reich is FULL CO-AUTHOR. There's also many other authors. Forget reading the paper; did you even look at the darn title page????

    @Blevins,

    You judge geneticists by their work output, i.e. their papers, not by some off the cuff tweet about some topic they've never addressed.

    Please don't pretend that you and some of your compatriots are objective in any way, shape or form where someone of Greek extraction is concerned. It's sad and disheartening in this day and age.

    Btw, he's not my "idol". He has been and will no doubt be wrong about certain things in the future; he's a fallible human being like the rest of us. However, he is an exceptionally gifted statistician and population geneticist, and in addition, which isn't always the case, he's an extremely logical thinker and lucid and logical writer. Most importantly, I've never seen him cut corners or do anything dishonest in his analysis, so, yes, I admire him a great deal. There are other people I admire as well, but they aren't the subject of a thread where they're being attacked with nonsense like this.

    Now I'm out. I have nothing more to say.

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    For whatever reason, i thought Lazaridis was Bulgarian.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Much of the "bias" comes from how ethnicity is defined and perceived. Being Greek Orthodox and writing in Greek has usually sufficed for Greek historians to label a person or a people as Greek. This is a pretty loose definition for others in the Balkans who believe native language and ethnic ancestry is also very important, maybe even more so.
    The Balkans has been populated by numerous tribes. So having a commmon ethnic ancestry is a very loose definition and very biased. A people will at the very least need a reference point. A language/culture enveloped in its litterary tradition.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    All of these ethnocentric geneticists are biased and they have all been debunked.

    None of them should be taken seriously at any rate.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Who are you and what makes you think your position is the respected one?

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