Debate Lazaridis Bias of Individual Geneticists Ethics Discussion

I am Albanian and i am curious to know what historical narrative we have developed in my country and how this has influenced on how we perceive Greeks. I am sure that you have an answer for this question.

I will not answer that specifically. All I can say is that the view of Albanians about Greece is highly selective at the very least. By no means are Albanians experts in Greek history.


It’s true that there is a rich literature in Greek language. Ancient Greek was the language of an great civilization, Greek was lingua franca also Greek was the language of the Orthodox Church. Having all this historical material available, the Greek scholars have had the opportunity to be among the best scholars in the world for certain historical periods. But it is the opposite, no one takes Greek scholars into consideration, no serious scholar in the world uses Paparigopulos as a reference for example, even Sathas has been accused of having invented "The Chronicles of Galaxidi". There are so many concrete denunciations with names and surnames made even by the Greeks. From your sources we know that in Greece there are structures specialized in falsifying history.

As I said, Greeks get most of the analysis about Greek history from Western historiographers. They are no exception to this. The difference is that they evaluate all the material which concerns them. Why would Albanians evaluate all the material about Greek history?

Also, as I said, Greeks have a Graeco-centric bias since they have acces to their extremely rich historical material. Perhaps at the expense of Arab, Persian, Spanish material etc. But we should not underestimate them in that regard since there are also many respected academics in the Greek diaspora.

For this reason and others, i think that even the case of this Lazaridis and this Stamatogonidis, they are not an the exception of the rule that exists in your country.

These are geneticists. They are not even historians. They are educated in elite universities and the colleagues who work on their projects are also from various countries. Their work only allows for little bias. Geneticists could easily be refuted and risk harming their reputation as scientists.

Besides, on a side note, their conclusions are not even that pro-Greek. Their work indicates that Mycenaeans are only the primary genetic source of modern Greeks. It indicates that Greeks absorbed newcomers in later era's. Most likely post-ancient times.
 
If this turns into another Balkan war I will close the thread.

Asking Albanians for a leap of faith towards this Lazaridis Greek person is too much. Many Venetian documents are been translated in Albanian nowadays, their Greek translation from well known Greek researchers is in many case simple forgery of facts.


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This is exactly my point. Fallmerayer is part of Western historiography. He expressed his view at his time which is noted. But he is only a part of the overall sum of historians (classisists, byzantologists, slavicists, balkanologists) anthropologists, geneticists etc. etc. His work is out there for the world to see. Plentyfull Byzantologists wrote books after him with different perspectives. Yet, as you very well stated, what about him? Naturally, you are not in expert in medieval Greek history. Yet, for some reason his work is of some importance to you. While the work of many others is not. This is exactly what I mean. Balkan nations have a very narrow view of Greek history.

Miss interpretations and miss translation of historical documents with the purpose to mislead.....it is not a matter of narrow view.


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Miss interpretations and miss translation of historical documents with the purpose to mislead.....it is not a matter of narrow view.


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Let's put it this way. Instead of pointing fingers, feel free to present sciencific research using a methodology which can be evaluated and falsified if incorrect. This is the beauty of science. You can participate yourself. Sitting back and refuting a peer reviewed research because someone has a certain origin is not productive. Try instead to refute the research scientifically. Shooting the messenger is not getting you anywhere.
 
Asking Albanians for a leap of faith towards this Lazaridis Greek person is too much. Many Venetian documents are been translated in Albanian nowadays, their Greek translation from well known Greek researchers is in many case simple forgery of facts.


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What the heck are you people talking about? What does the paper on the Mycenaeans and Minoans have to do with the ancient authors or Venetian documents or even the difference between Arvanites and Greeks proper?

The paper was an analysis of the autosomal admixture of these ancient people in terms of the Neolithic Europeans and the steppe people. Beyond that, it was to see if there was overlap between these ancient people and the modern Greek people in the publicly available datasets, samples NOT collected or chosen by the Reich Lab or Lazaridis in particular. Whether Lazaridis found the results personally gratifying is besides the point. Nobody can demand that someone have no preferences. What one demands is integrity in the WORK.

If you have some problem with the nature of those datasets, do your homework, contact the people who collected them and find out how the samples were collected.

Nobody cares whether the conclusions upset your view of the world. All anybody but the Albanians cares about is whether the conclusions of the paper are accurate. If you think they're inaccurate, pit your intellect and mathematical computational ability against theirs, and PROVE where they're wrong.

If you continue you will just damage your own reputations more.

I've read an awful lot of written material written by scientists or all types and non-scientists as well, and every major population genetics paper of the last ten years, and there is no better computational geneticist, statistician, general logical thinker and lucid writer than Iosif Lazaridis working today. If someone can be said to be in love with how someone's mind works, that's how I would describe it.

This sniping from people who don't have a smattering of his intellect, education, or integrity is really sad.
 
This sniping from people who don't have a smattering of his intellect, education, or integrity is really sad.[/QUOTE]

Seriously .....how you come to this conclusion, you don’t even know the people here and their background.....it seems that you are a researcher, but the way you concluded here show that you lack a lot on your process, just like Lazaridis for Bubulina.


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What the heck are you people talking about? What does the paper on the Mycenaeans and Minoans have to do with the ancient authors or Venetian documents or even the difference between Arvanites and Greeks proper?

The paper was an analysis of the autosomal admixture of these ancient people in terms of the Neolithic Europeans and the steppe people. Beyond that, it was to see if there was overlap between these ancient people and the modern Greek people in the publicly available datasets, samples NOT collected or chosen by the Reich Lab or Lazaridis in particular. Whether Lazaridis found the results personally gratifying is besides the point. Nobody can demand that someone have no preferences. What one demands is integrity in the WORK.

If you have some problem with the nature of those datasets, do your homework, contact the people who collected them and find out how the samples were collected.

Nobody cares whether the conclusions upset your view of the world. All anybody but the Albanians cares about is whether the conclusions of the paper are accurate. If you think they're inaccurate, pit your intellect and mathematical computational ability against theirs, and PROVE where they're wrong.

If you continue you will just damage your own reputations more.

I've read an awful lot of written material written by scientists or all types and non-scientists as well, and every major population genetics paper of the last ten years, and there is no better computational geneticist, statistician, general logical thinker and lucid writer than Iosif Lazaridis working today. If someone can be said to be in love with how someone's mind works, that's how I would describe it.

This sniping from people who don't have a smattering of his intellect, education, or integrity is really sad.

So if you like what he writes keep reading him, we simply do not believe him. If Rich had written the stuff I had no problems. Do not try to influence others with your views!
 
What the heck are you people talking about? What does the paper on the Mycenaeans and Minoans have to do with the ancient authors or Venetian documents or even the difference between Arvanites and Greeks proper?

The paper was an analysis of the autosomal admixture of these ancient people in terms of the Neolithic Europeans and the steppe people. Beyond that, it was to see if there was overlap between these ancient people and the modern Greek people in the publicly available datasets, samples NOT collected or chosen by the Reich Lab or Lazaridis in particular. Whether Lazaridis found the results personally gratifying is besides the point. Nobody can demand that someone have no preferences. What one demands is integrity in the WORK.

If you have some problem with the nature of those datasets, do your homework, contact the people who collected them and find out how the samples were collected.

Nobody cares whether the conclusions upset your view of the world. All anybody but the Albanians cares about is whether the conclusions of the paper are accurate. If you think they're inaccurate, pit your intellect and mathematical computational ability against theirs, and PROVE where they're wrong.

If you continue you will just damage your own reputations more.

I've read an awful lot of written material written by scientists or all types and non-scientists as well, and every major population genetics paper of the last ten years, and there is no better computational geneticist, statistician, general logical thinker and lucid writer than Iosif Lazaridis working today. If someone can be said to be in love with how someone's mind works, that's how I would describe it.

This sniping from people who don't have a smattering of his intellect, education, or integrity is really sad.
When someone writes a papper conflict of interests is declared! He simply is not believable for conflict of interest reasons.
 
When someone writes a papper conflict of interests is declared! He simply is not believable for conflict of interest reasons.
All he said was Mycenaeans=mostly Anatolian farmer + small amts of Caucasus and steppe. He then compared them to modern Greeks who seem to be mostly Mycenaean plus additional mixtures. What's the issue here?
 
When someone writes a papper conflict of interests is declared! He simply is not believable for conflict of interest reasons.

Why would he have to DECLARE it? According to you it exists by reason of his birth.

@Blevins,

The posters who specialize in this constant anti-Greek rhetoric and name calling have not shown that they even UNDERSTAND these papers, much less have the capability to criticize them.

@Davef,

There IS no issue here, other than the typical Balkan warfare based on no facts or logic.
 
The entire point of this was that Lazaridis considers Bubulina pure Greek and used her as a point of reference for possibly explaining Cretan Greek admixture in India. And that this is worrying for a geneticist. If someone argues culturally she is greek thats different.

Thats it. When a high profile and extremely powerful geneticist totally erases her being Arvanite purposefully or not, its worrying.

If we had Bublinas dna and Lazaridis tested and analyzed it we can safely surmise he would label her DNa results as Greek based on how he wrote about her.
 
The entire point of this was that Lazaridis considers Bubulina pure Greek and used her as a point of reference for possibly explaining Cretan Greek admixture in India. And that this is worrying for a geneticist. If someone argues culturally she is greek thats different.

Thats it. When a high profile and extremely powerful geneticist totally erases her being Arvanite purposefully or not, its worrying.

If we had Bublinas dna and Lazaridis tested and analyzed it we can safely surmise he would label her DNa results as Greek based on how he wrote about her.

When he does an analysis of modern Greeks vs Albanians and uses samples he collects, I'll pay attention.
 
It's no surprise that ancient DNA triggers distrust in the likes of thread starter. Such DNA will continue to discredit racial/ethnic nationalist narratives.

When someone writes a papper conflict of interests is declared! He simply is not believable for conflict of interest reasons.

Has Turkey admitted the Young Turks' genocides happened yet? How many of Yugoslavia's massacres have their government admitted to?
 
The entire point of this was that Lazaridis considers Bubulina pure Greek and used her as a point of reference for possibly explaining Cretan Greek admixture in India. And that this is worrying for a geneticist. If someone argues culturally she is greek thats different.

Thats it. When a high profile and extremely powerful geneticist totally erases her being Arvanite purposefully or not, its worrying.

If we had Bublinas dna and Lazaridis tested and analyzed it we can safely surmise he would label her DNa results as Greek based on how he wrote about her.

Many Greeks don't know that Arvanites are of Albanian origin, it might've been a mistake. Most of Arvanites feel insulted when you tell them that they are of Albanian origin.
 
Why would he have to DECLARE it? According to you it exists by reason of his birth.

@Blevins,

The posters who specialize in this constant anti-Greek rhetoric and name calling have not shown that they even UNDERSTAND these papers, much less have the capability to criticize them.

@Davef,

There IS no issue here, other than the typical Balkan warfare based on no facts or logic.

What paper are you talking about (this thread is not about any paper).... here we have an example hopefully of ignorance from Lazaridis....than we have you calling us not educated enough, unethical, etc.....because we do not share the same view for your idol Lazaridis. As I said previously, you do not know most of the people here (so be careful with your conclusions) and there is no anti-Greek, is just reasonable misbelieve....based upon on Greek past researchers....read them and you will understand were we come from.


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So if you like what he writes keep reading him, we simply do not believe him. If Rich had written the stuff I had no problems. Do not try to influence others with your views!

Like I said, you don't understand the papers or how any of this works. Reich is FULL CO-AUTHOR. There's also many other authors. Forget reading the paper; did you even look at the darn title page????

@Blevins,

You judge geneticists by their work output, i.e. their papers, not by some off the cuff tweet about some topic they've never addressed.

Please don't pretend that you and some of your compatriots are objective in any way, shape or form where someone of Greek extraction is concerned. It's sad and disheartening in this day and age.

Btw, he's not my "idol". He has been and will no doubt be wrong about certain things in the future; he's a fallible human being like the rest of us. However, he is an exceptionally gifted statistician and population geneticist, and in addition, which isn't always the case, he's an extremely logical thinker and lucid and logical writer. Most importantly, I've never seen him cut corners or do anything dishonest in his analysis, so, yes, I admire him a great deal. There are other people I admire as well, but they aren't the subject of a thread where they're being attacked with nonsense like this.

Now I'm out. I have nothing more to say.
 
For whatever reason, i thought Lazaridis was Bulgarian.
 

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