Ancient genomes of Srubnaya, Cimmerians, Scythians and Sarmatians(Science, 2018)

berun said:
Also it's fine to take into account the suppossedly descendency of Alans or Scythes os Sarmatians, the Ossetines of th north Caucasus, in a sample of n=132 some 92 were G2a, 24 J2a and 6 R1b1b2... it's thought that they are the remnants of Alans taking refuge in the mountains after Goth or Hun or Avar or Magyar or Turkish taking their steppes.
Click to expand...

Alans, Scythians and Sarmatians cannot be lumped under one category, they were different peoples, very likely carrying different lineages (usually different Z93 clades too). Also Sarmatians were quite differentiated among themselves descending from several waves.. Ossetians are descendants of Alans of late antiquity to a significant degree. By that time Alans absorbed some G2a L293 Caucasian clades. Namely almost 50 % of all Ossetians belongs to a cluster G-FGC719 with the current TMRCA of only 700 years. This cluster is best defined by STR's such as dys438=9 and dys391=9 (instead of modal 10 for most other clades), one of these haplotypes with such values is present in a sample of Swiss from Basel (National Database Switzerland) in the company of two other G2a L293 clades. So in Basel Swiss G-L293 is 3/138. Not that far are some archaeological traces of Alan presence. So, make no mistake about it: westwards migrating Alans of the Migration Period had G-L293. Proto-Alans who reached Caucasus some centuries earlier seem to be more present among Karachay-Balkars in the form of some R-Z93 clades.

Ossetian R1b is of Z2103>Y5586 variety. This clade seems certainly Thracian with 2 clades in Bulgaria having TMRCA of 4300 ybp. The reason Ossetians have it are most likely Thraco-Cimmerians. And that might go for their E-V13 cluster as well. Although this study shows Cimmerians had substantial Inner Asian influences both automatically and by Y-dna lineages (Q-Y558, N-Y6503, likely/possibly also related N-P189.2), within the archaeological "Thraco-Cimmerian" spectrum various "Thracoid" populations seem to have been "Cimmerianized", unfortunately we don't have as of yet any samples from these cultures but I have a pretty good idea what lineages they must have had.
 
Dibran said:
http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/10/eaat4457
Maja Krzewińska1,*,†, Gülşah Merve Kılınç1,*,†, Anna Juras2, Dilek Koptekin3, Maciej Chyleński4, Alexey G. Nikitin5, Nikolai Shcherbakov6, Iia Shuteleva6,7, Tatiana Leon

Ancient genomes suggest the eastern Pontic-Caspian steppe as the source of western Iron Age nomads



Code: 
Table S3. Summary sequencing statistics for mitochondrial variants for individuals sequenced in this study.                         
                        
Individual    Site    Culture    Age (cal BC) 95%    Biological Sex    MtDNA Haplogroup    Y Haplogroup
chy001    Cherniy Yar    Late Sarmatian    55 - 140 CE    XX    H2a1    -
chy002    Cherniy Yar    Late Sarmatian    65 - 220 CE    XY    T1a1    R1a1a
tem001    Temyaysovo    Late Sarmatian    135 - 320 CE    XX    U5b2b    -
tem002    Temyaysovo    Late Sarmatian    125 - 240 CE    XY    D4q    R1b1a1a2
tem003    Temyaysovo    Late Sarmatian    130-320 CE    XY    U5b2b    R1b1a1a2?
scy006*    Starosillya    Scythian    ND    XX    D4j2    -
scy009*    Starosillya    Scythian    770 - 415 BCE    XY    J2b1a6    R1b1a1a2
scy010*    Starosillya    Scythian    790 - 540 BCE    XX    N1b1a    -
scy011*    Nesterivka    Scythian    355 - 115 BCE    XX    A    -
scy192*    Glinoe    Scythian    2863 - 2503 BCE    XX    H8c    -
scy193*    Glinoe    Scythian    ND    XY    U5a2a1    R1b1a1a2?
scy197*    Glinoe    Scythian    2885 - 2632 BCE    XY    U5a1a1    R1b1a1a2
scy300*    Glinoe    Scythian    397 - 209 BCE    XX    H5b    -
scy301    Glinoe    Scythian    392 - 204 BCE    XY    U5b2a3    R1b1a1a2
scy303*    Glinoe    Scythian    380 - 203 BCE    XX    U5a1a2b    -
scy304    Glinoe    Scythian    361 - 172 BCE    XY    U4*    R1b1a1a2
scy305*    Glinoe    Scythian    399 - 209 BCE    XY    U5a2b    R1b1a1a2
scy311*    Glinoe    Scythian    389 - 204 BCE    XX    T2b    -
scy332*    Glinoe    Scythian    248 - 391 CE    XX    M10a1a1a    -
cim357    Glinoe Sad    Cimmerian    914 - 805 BCE    XY    H9a    R1b1a
cim358    Glinoe Sad    Cimmerian    936 -809 BCE    XY    C5c (50%)    Q1a1
cim359    Mokra    Cimmerian    1008 - 838 BCE    XX    R    -
kzb001    Kazburun 1    Srubno-alakulskaya    1735 - 1565 BCE    XX    U4b1a1a1    -
kzb002    Kazburun 1    Srubno-alakulskaya    1875 - 1665 BCE    XY    J1c3a    R1a1a1
kzb003    Kazburun 1    Srubno-alakulskaya    1765 - 1630 BCE    XY    H    R1a1a1
kzb004    Kazburun 1    Srubno-alakulskaya    1750 - 1620 BCE    XX    U5b2a2    -
kzb005    Kazburun 1    Srubno-alakulskaya    1880 - 1690 BCE    XY    HV0a    R1a1a1
kzb006    Kazburun 1    Srubno-alakulskaya    1745 - 1620 BCE    XX    U2e2a1a2    -
kzb007    Kazburun 1    Srubno-alakulskaya    1755 - 1630 BCE    XY    U5a1    R1a1a1
kzb008    Kazburun 1    Srubno-alakulskaya    1880 -1690 BCE    XY    HV0a    R1a1a1
kzb009    Kazburun 1    Srubno-alakulskaya    1745 - 1620 BCE    XX    U4b1a1a1    -
mur001    Muradym 8    Srubno-alakulskaya    ND    XX    H2a1    -
mur002    Muradym 8    Srubno-alakulskaya    ND    XY    K1a4b    ?
mur003    Muradym 8    Srubno-alakulskaya    1880 - 1685 BCE    XY    T2a1    R1a1a1?
mur004    Muradym 8    Srubno-alakulskaya    1885 - 1695 BCE    XX    J1c5e    -
(*) Individuals previously used in a study focusing on mitochondrial genomes (Juras et al.2017) and are thus reported elsewhere.
Click to expand...


The above chart is confusing or not properly formatted.

I am looking in the column for YDNA and can find nothing, however I fund haplogroups under mtDNA that are apparently YDNA such as R1a1a and R1b

Can this chart be reformatted and properly displayed or can a link to it be provided?
 
halfalp said:
Their lineage are pretty concordant with what we assumed until there, fusion between west eurasians ( mainly eastern european ) and siberians / east asians.

Are those the first Cimmerians sample that we ever had? Q1a1 and R1b1a, very interesting. Where is " Glinoe Sad? "
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5 of those Scythians look more like Southeastern European than broadly Eastern European. So, they were likely already settled.
 
Aspurg said:
Alans, Scythians and Sarmatians cannot be lumped under one category, they were different peoples, very likely carrying different lineages (usually different Z93 clades too). Also Sarmatians were quite differentiated among themselves descending from several waves.. Ossetians are descendants of Alans of late antiquity to a significant degree. By that time Alans absorbed some G2a L293 Caucasian clades. Namely almost 50 % of all Ossetians belongs to a cluster G-FGC719 with the current TMRCA of only 700 years. This cluster is best defined by STR's such as dys438=9 and dys391=9 (instead of modal 10 for most other clades), one of these haplotypes with such values is present in a sample of Swiss from Basel (National Database Switzerland) in the company of two other G2a L293 clades. So in Basel Swiss G-L293 is 3/138. Not that far are some archaeological traces of Alan presence. So, make no mistake about it: westwards migrating Alans of the Migration Period had G-L293. Proto-Alans who reached Caucasus some centuries earlier seem to be more present among Karachay-Balkars in the form of some R-Z93 clades.

Ossetian R1b is of Z2103>Y5586 variety. This clade seems certainly Thracian with 2 clades in Bulgaria having TMRCA of 4300 ybp. The reason Ossetians have it are most likely Thraco-Cimmerians. And that might go for their E-V13 cluster as well. Although this study shows Cimmerians had substantial Inner Asian influences both automatically and by Y-dna lineages (Q-Y558, N-Y6503, likely/possibly also related N-P189.2), within the archaeological "Thraco-Cimmerian" spectrum various "Thracoid" populations seem to have been "Cimmerianized", unfortunately we don't have as of yet any samples from these cultures but I have a pretty good idea what lineages they must have had.
Click to expand...

to me it is very confussing to hear that TMRCA of Caucasian G-FGC719 is 700 years and thereafter hear that Alans carried it westwards in the Migration period... moreover hearing nothing about Jassic tribe settling Hungary by the XIII century... you only leave as originaly Alan R1b-Z2103.
 
berun said:
to me it is very confussing to hear that TMRCA of Caucasian G-FGC719 is 700 years and thereafter hear that Alans carried it westwards in the Migration period... moreover hearing nothing about Jassic tribe settling Hungary by the XIII century... you only leave as originaly Alan R1b-Z2103.
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I said "current" TMRCA because out of 5 samples at Yfull, only 2 seem Ossetian, 3 are Ingush. I think some important Ossetian haplotypes might not be there yet. Also this Basel sample while looking like a certain G-FGC719 has some unique STR values, such as GATAH4=14, or dys643=12 (only 1 Ossetian cluster has 12 others along the Ingush have 11), dys458=18 (most have 17), so once this Swiss sample eventually enters the picture he looks fairly certain to increase the TMRCA, he is 5/23 or 6/23 to Ossetian/Ingush clusters, so no very close matches (hence also excluding any possibility this was a recent migrant from Ossetia, presence of other G-L293 also confirms that, also those who take samples pay attention to that as well).. Not to mention the greater incidence of G-L293 in some regions of Spain, and that seems like a certain Alan trace as well. FGC719 had a recent expansion, it seems not to have been that common 1000-1500 years ago.. Some other L293 clades that are today less common were likely more represented among Migration Period Alans (only one FGC719 in the West to plenty of other L293's).

About the Hungarian Jasz, well some have been tested, including seemingly several of Z2103>Y5587 clade (not SNP confirmed yet), they don't closely match with the Ossetian cluster but I am inclined to think they might be Jassic, I've seen some other interesting haplotypes.
 
Very interesting:

scy197* Glinoe Scythian 2885 - 2632 BCE XY U5a1a1 E1b

If I understand correctly, it means: 4800 years old scythian who was E1b?
 
Almost surely.

As I know, the scythians arrived at the Pontic steppe about 800 BC. 2000 years earlier bones how can be scythian?

Otherwise. The EV13 TMRCA lived 4800 ybp (based on YFULL). Among R1a and R1b peoples. This candidate is appropriate.
 
kuzmosi said:
Almost surely.

As I know, the scythians arrived at the Pontic steppe about 800 BC. 2000 years earlier bones how can be scythian?

Otherwise. The EV13 TMRCA lived 4800 ybp (based on YFULL). Among R1a and R1b peoples. This candidate is appropriate.
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The dating for this is not reliable. The authors claim so explicitly.

"Calibrated ages were reported as years cal BCE or CE. For all but two samples (scy192 and scy197), reliable results were obtained. "
 
kuzmosi said:
Almost surely.

As I know, the scythians arrived at the Pontic steppe about 800 BC. 2000 years earlier bones how can be scythian?

Otherwise. The EV13 TMRCA lived 4800 ybp (based on YFULL). Among R1a and R1b peoples. This candidate is appropriate.
Click to expand...

The E-V13 guy is part of the southern European cluster which is aligned with what we already expected, an expansion north from the SE/Balkans. These aren't really Scythians, just like the P312+ guy wasn't a Schytian, who plots with other north Europeans, including modern Slavic speaking countries like Poland and Ukraine.

THe question really is, did E-V13 expand with the Danubian farmers (LBK or Cucuteni) or something after that? In my view it could have been both, but I think leaning on the Cucuteni side.
 
The LBK expansion happened thousends of years earlier. 7500 ybp. I also vote for Cucuteni or other Danubian late neolithic, calcholitic culture, shich the PIE people were attacked. And the EV13 expansion happened with the PIE tribes.
 
kuzmosi said:
The LBK expansion happened thousends of years earlier. 7500 ybp. I also vote for Cucuteni or other Danubian late neolithic, calcholitic culture, shich the PIE people were attacked. And the EV13 expansion happened with the PIE tribes.
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We already know that Early Chalcolithic steppe people barely had any EEF, but by the time of Yamnaya they had some EEF, even if a very minor percentage. Y-DNA haplogroups may have been absorbed too, including some G2a and E-V13. I'm not sure, but I think some of it may have come not even directly from Cucuteni-Tripolye people, but from Western Steppe people of the former Sredny Stog II culture absorbed into the Yamnaya horizon (IIRC a Dereivka man of Sredny Stog culture had as much as 1/3 EEF). Anyway, the ultimate influence would've come from Cucuteni-Tripolye or maybe even GAC, the main EEF cultures to the west of Yamnaya.
 
Ygorcs said:
We already know that Early Chalcolithic steppe people barely had any EEF, but by the time of Yamnaya they had some EEF, even if a very minor percentage. Y-DNA haplogroups may have been absorbed too, including some G2a and E-V13. I'm not sure, but I think some of it may have come not even directly from Cucuteni-Tripolye people, but from Western Steppe people of the former Sredny Stog II culture absorbed into the Yamnaya horizon (IIRC a Dereivka man of Sredny Stog culture had as much as 1/3 EEF). Anyway, the ultimate influence would've come from Cucuteni-Tripolye or maybe even GAC, the main EEF cultures to the west of Yamnaya.
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Heiishh. Eu sou maluco, mas vocês não lembram nem ao menino jesus.
 
Olympus Mons said:
Heiishh. Eu sou maluco, mas vocês não lembram nem ao menino jesus.
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You're not crazy. As I can see now again, you're just impolite and a pain in the ass. If you want me to repeat this opinion of mine in good ol' Portuguese, let me know. Now stop provoking other members, otherwise you'll get an infraction next time.
 
Dibran said:
http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/10/eaat4457


Ancient genomes suggest the eastern Pontic-Caspian steppe as the source of western Iron Age nomads


Maja Krzewińska1,*,†, Gülşah Merve Kılınç1,*,†, Anna Juras2, Dilek Koptekin3, Maciej Chyleński4, Alexey G. Nikitin5, Nikolai Shcherbakov6, Iia Shuteleva6,7, Tatiana Leonova6, Liudmila Kraeva8, Flarit A. Sungatov9, Alfija N. Sultanova9, Inna Potekhina10, Sylwia Łukasik2, Marta Krenz-Niedbała2, Love Dalén11, Vitaly Sinika12,13, Mattias Jakobsson14,15,16, Jan Storå17 and Anders Götherström1,†


Science Advances 03 Oct 2018:
Vol. 4, no. 10, eaat4457
DOI: 10.1126/sciadv.aat4457


Abstract


For millennia, the Pontic-Caspian steppe was a connector between the Eurasian steppe and Europe. In this scene, multidirectional and sequential movements of different populations may have occurred, including those of the Eurasian steppe nomads. We sequenced 35 genomes (low to medium coverage) of Bronze Age individuals (Srubnaya-Alakulskaya) and Iron Age nomads (Cimmerians, Scythians, and Sarmatians) that represent four distinct cultural entities corresponding to the chronological sequence of cultural complexes in the region. Our results suggest that, despite genetic links among these peoples, no group can be considered a direct ancestor of the subsequent group. The nomadic populations were heterogeneous and carried genetic affinities with populations from several other regions including the Far East and the southern Urals. We found evidence of a stable shared genetic signature, making the eastern Pontic-Caspian steppe a likely source of western nomadic groups.


Code: 
Table S3. Summary sequencing statistics for mitochondrial variants for individuals sequenced in this study.                         
                        
Individual    Site    Culture    Age (cal BC) 95%    Biological Sex    MtDNA Haplogroup    Y Haplogroup
chy001    Cherniy Yar    Late Sarmatian    55 - 140 CE    XX    H2a1    -
chy002    Cherniy Yar    Late Sarmatian    65 - 220 CE    XY    T1a1    R1a1a
tem001    Temyaysovo    Late Sarmatian    135 - 320 CE    XX    U5b2b    -
tem002    Temyaysovo    Late Sarmatian    125 - 240 CE    XY    D4q    R1b1a1a2
tem003    Temyaysovo    Late Sarmatian    130-320 CE    XY    U5b2b    R1b1a1a2?
scy006*    Starosillya    Scythian    ND    XX    D4j2    -
scy009*    Starosillya    Scythian    770 - 415 BCE    XY    J2b1a6    R1b1a1a2
scy010*    Starosillya    Scythian    790 - 540 BCE    XX    N1b1a    -
scy011*    Nesterivka    Scythian    355 - 115 BCE    XX    A    -
scy192*    Glinoe    Scythian    2863 - 2503 BCE    XX    H8c    -
scy193*    Glinoe    Scythian    ND    XY    U5a2a1    R1b1a1a2?
scy197*    Glinoe    Scythian    2885 - 2632 BCE    XY    U5a1a1    R1b1a1a2
scy300*    Glinoe    Scythian    397 - 209 BCE    XX    H5b    -
scy301    Glinoe    Scythian    392 - 204 BCE    XY    U5b2a3    R1b1a1a2
scy303*    Glinoe    Scythian    380 - 203 BCE    XX    U5a1a2b    -
scy304    Glinoe    Scythian    361 - 172 BCE    XY    U4*    R1b1a1a2
scy305*    Glinoe    Scythian    399 - 209 BCE    XY    U5a2b    R1b1a1a2
scy311*    Glinoe    Scythian    389 - 204 BCE    XX    T2b    -
scy332*    Glinoe    Scythian    248 - 391 CE    XX    M10a1a1a    -
cim357    Glinoe Sad    Cimmerian    914 - 805 BCE    XY    H9a    R1b1a
cim358    Glinoe Sad    Cimmerian    936 -809 BCE    XY    C5c (50%)    Q1a1
cim359    Mokra    Cimmerian    1008 - 838 BCE    XX    R    -
kzb001    Kazburun 1    Srubno-alakulskaya    1735 - 1565 BCE    XX    U4b1a1a1    -
kzb002    Kazburun 1    Srubno-alakulskaya    1875 - 1665 BCE    XY    J1c3a    R1a1a1
kzb003    Kazburun 1    Srubno-alakulskaya    1765 - 1630 BCE    XY    H    R1a1a1
kzb004    Kazburun 1    Srubno-alakulskaya    1750 - 1620 BCE    XX    U5b2a2    -
kzb005    Kazburun 1    Srubno-alakulskaya    1880 - 1690 BCE    XY    HV0a    R1a1a1
kzb006    Kazburun 1    Srubno-alakulskaya    1745 - 1620 BCE    XX    U2e2a1a2    -
kzb007    Kazburun 1    Srubno-alakulskaya    1755 - 1630 BCE    XY    U5a1    R1a1a1
kzb008    Kazburun 1    Srubno-alakulskaya    1880 -1690 BCE    XY    HV0a    R1a1a1
kzb009    Kazburun 1    Srubno-alakulskaya    1745 - 1620 BCE    XX    U4b1a1a1    -
mur001    Muradym 8    Srubno-alakulskaya    ND    XX    H2a1    -
mur002    Muradym 8    Srubno-alakulskaya    ND    XY    K1a4b    ?
mur003    Muradym 8    Srubno-alakulskaya    1880 - 1685 BCE    XY    T2a1    R1a1a1?
mur004    Muradym 8    Srubno-alakulskaya    1885 - 1695 BCE    XX    J1c5e    -
(*) Individuals previously used in a study focusing on mitochondrial genomes (Juras et al.2017) and are thus reported elsewhere.
Click to expand...
Very interesting post.
Am I seeing wrong or most Scythians from here are bearing R1b1a1a2?
 
Ygorcs said:
You're not crazy. As I can see now again, you're just impolite and a pain in the ass. If you want me to repeat this opinion of mine in good ol' Portuguese, let me know. Now stop provoking other members, otherwise you'll get an infraction next time.
Click to expand...
In what way does me making a joke in Portuguese to you is impolite or a provocation?
What we need to do in this kind of forums is find a solution to prevent certain people from working their way up to acquire power to do "infractions" to those that either challenge them or contradict them.
So, who is going to give you an infraction for threating me?
 
^^You're lucky to still be here. Every other forum has banned you. Watch your step.

People here don't get banned for stupidity or agendas. If it was allowed there'd be quite a few people who would be long gone. People get banned for insulting other people, t-rolling, or posting racist remarks. Period.
 
Angela said:
^^You're lucky to still be here. Every other forum has banned you. Watch your step.
People here don't get banned for stupidity or agendas. If it was allowed there'd be quite a few people who would be long gone. People get banned for insulting other people, t-rolling, or posting racist remarks. Period.
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And which of those things are you accusing me of? I have done either. Or are you calling me stupid? are you t-roll-ing me? who is going to ban you?

The only every other forum that banned was Anthrogenica and Eurogenes and those are badges of honor! Means I have courage to face them until they do what who just veily are threatening to do also.

have just been threaten to be "infractiomed" by Ygorcs for nothing. I never engage Ygorcs but it has always him (as halfalp) that first engage me.
To be fair the reason why you yourself just engage me is because once I gave you the answer you deserved at that point.

If you have the power to ban me just do it but don't make escuses for it!
 
Olympus Mons said:
In what way does me making a joke in Portuguese to you is impolite or a provocation?
What we need to do in this kind of forums is find a solution to prevent certain people from working their way up to acquire power to do "infractions" to those that either challenge them or contradict them.
So, who is going to give you an infraction for threating me?
Click to expand...

Well, unless we got lost in European to Brazilian Portuguese translation, it does seem that you were provoking other members or more specifically me (as I am supposedly the only one who speaks Portuguese in this thread, too). If that were not your intent, or maybe if your joke is not easily understood by anyone else who does not come from Portugal, explain what you really meant and that's fine. According to Wiktionary, this Portuguese expression means that someone or something is uninteresting, banal, boring, unconvincing. Now if you still think that is just a joke, and not an unfair provocation against people were not attacking you in any way, you probably should've got an infraction, indeed.

Anyway, sorry, but I will keep "threatening" (that's called moderation, mind you) to give infractions to people whose behavior looks suspisciously *****-like unless they stop it (and you know that making provocative jokes AND simultaneously speaking in another language make you sound like that, especially since it's not the first time that you try to demean other people who simply do not agree with your pet theory). I have barely given any infractions to anyone here since I started to be a moderator, except for people with really harsh and offensive language and spammers, and everyone in this forum can prove that for themselves if they give a good look at the threads. But some people need to be warned because they apparently can't control themselves.
 
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