Ancient genomes of Srubnaya, Cimmerians, Scythians and Sarmatians(Science, 2018)

Well, unless we got lost in European to Brazilian Portuguese translation, it does seem that you were provoking other members or more specifically me (as I am supposedly the only one who speaks Portuguese in this thread, too). If that were not your intent, or maybe if your joke is not easily understood by anyone else who does not come from Portugal, explain what you really meant and that's fine. According to Wiktionary, this Portuguese expression means that someone or something is uninteresting, banal, boring, unconvincing. Now if you still think that is just a joke, and not an unfair provocation against people were not attacking you in any way, you probably should've got an infraction, indeed.

Anyway, sorry, but I will keep "threatening" (that's called moderation, mind you) to give infractions to people whose behavior looks suspisciously *****-like unless they stop it (and you know that making provocative jokes AND simultaneously speaking in another language make you sound like that, especially since it's not the first time that you try to demean other people who simply do not agree with your pet theory). I have barely given any infractions to anyone here since I started to be a moderator, except for people with really harsh and offensive language and spammers, and everyone in this forum can prove that for themselves if they give a good look at the threads. But some people need to be warned because they apparently can't control themselves.

You know very well it means - I am crazy but you are even Crazier!
 
Well, unle....
Anyway, sorry, but I will keep "threatening" (that's called moderation, mind you) to give infractions to people whose behavior looks suspisciously *****-like unless they stop it (and you know that making provocative jokes AND simultaneously speaking in another language make you sound like that.

No. -- What is happening here is that you don't like that I think you are never positing Propositions statements that we can address as true or false. You do not build something we can test. What you do is called "error detection", which is something akin to setting arguments that call into question the premises by which others are trying to make a conclusion(to be fair with you, I think you are changing that). This error detection comes across as unfair in a subject that nobody really and truly knows much . - That is what you call impolite, that is what annoys you
and ... No, you do not have the privilege to define how I express myself. You may end up having the power to ban me, but never prevent me from expressing the way I see fit. You or angela or anyone else for that matter. - So be ready.
 
You are on a public forum owned privatelly by an individual, wich means it is privatized. You have the privilege to be here, but you dont really have the privlege to express everything you want. Too much verbiage ain't gonna help. I found it interesting that you think you can be " extreme " in your exclamations without any consequences. The consequences might not be fair, it will happened because the world cannot turn exclusively around us ( and i incriminate myself with all that advocacy :D ).
 
No. -- What is happening here is that you don't like that I think you are never positing Propositions statements that we can address as true or false. You do not build something we can test. What you do is called "error detection", which is something akin to setting arguments that call into question the premises by which others are trying to make a conclusion(to be fair with you, I think you are changing that). This error detection comes across as unfair in a subject that nobody really and truly knows much . - That is what you call impolite, that is what annoys you
and ... No, you do not have the privilege to define how I express myself. You may end up having the power to ban me, but never prevent me from expressing the way I see fit. You or angela or anyone else for that matter. - So be ready.

Welcome to the world of science (or at least people who value science), what you call error detection is nothing but your peers pointing out flaws in your reasoning and demonstrating the greatest quality of science, which is that it constantly improves itself by being falsifiable and open to criticism. Of course that does not apply to people who have their pet theories and defend them against any counter-evidence or criticism whatsoever, and that is precisely why you'll end up screwing your own theory, because it is not open to "error detections" and therefore will never get the chance to be refined and improved. What you think is a flaw of mine ("never positing propositions") is actually just a result of my being humble and realistic enough to know my limits and to understand that at least for now I should learn and read, with critical thinking, much more than propose and make conclusions.

I am also down to earth enough to not believe way too much in an entire "scientific hypothesis" created out of my own amateur knowledge about archaeology and population genetics. I have my personal guesses and hunches about what I think is more likely to be true on many issues that haven't been established by science yet, however I won't be as bold as to create and insist on a pet theory of mine, even without broad support from actual scientists, that I would then keep trying to force to fit to any genetic and archaeological study that is published. Unlike you, I know perfectly well who I am and how qualified I am on population genetics, so yes, I have much more intellectual conditions to make "error detection" (because I know the conclusions and data of scientic papers well enough to detect when someone is saying things that do not match up with what actual studies have shown) than to make ad hoc presumably scientific propositions that are nothing but speculations (yes, because a scientific hypothesis needs much more serious - and not online - scientific resarch). But at least I know that my speculations are... well... speculations until we gather much, much more genetic data, especially in terms of aDNA.

Now, this issue with you is over. The next time you even insinuate someone is crazier than you (even though nobody had called you crazy, so it's funny you yourself acknowledge that) you'll get an infraction, and you may whine about your freedom of expression or whatever, that will change nothing. You're free to say whatever you want... but you're not exempt from the consequences thereof, especially as you are in a private forum. I do not have the privilege to define how you express youself - HOWEVER you also do not have the privilege to force other people to put up with your lack of civilized behavior and respect for others. So you're free to be completely free elsewhere if you want to. Here you will have to obey some rules, otherwise you'll be out. It's as simple as that.

Now let's go back to the original subject of this thread.
 
Welcome to the world of science (or at least people who value science), what you call error detection is nothing but your peers pointing out flaws in your reasoning and demonstrating the greatest quality of science, which is that it constantly improves itself by being falsifiable and open to criticism. Of course that does not apply to people who have their pet theories and defend them against any counter-evidence or criticism whatsoever, and that is precisely why you'll end up screwing your own theory, because it is not open to "error detections" and therefore will never get the chance to be refined and improved. What you think is a flaw of mine ("never positing propositions") is actually just a result of my being humble and realistic enough to know my limits and to understand that at least for now I should learn and read, with critical thinking, much more than propose and make conclusions.
I am also down to earth enough to not believe way too much in an entire "scientific hypothesis" created out of my own amateur knowledge about archaeology and population genetics. I have my personal guesses and hunches about what I think is more likely to be true on many issues that haven't been established by science yet, however I won't be as bold as to create and insist on a pet theory of mine, even without broad support from actual scientists, that I would then keep trying to force to fit to any genetic and archaeological study that is published. Unlike you, I know perfectly well who I am and how qualified I am on population genetics, so yes, I have much more intellectual conditions to make "error detection" (because I know the conclusions and data of scientic papers well enough to detect when someone is saying things that do not match up with what actual studies have shown) than to make ad hoc presumably scientific propositions that are nothing but speculations (yes, because a scientific hypothesis needs much more serious - and not online - scientific resarch). But at least I know that my speculations are... well... speculations until we gather much, much more genetic data, especially in terms of aDNA.
Now, this issue with you is over. The next time you even insinuate someone is crazier than you (even though nobody had called you crazy, so it's funny you yourself acknowledge that) you'll get an infraction, and you may whine about your freedom of expression or whatever, that will change nothing. You're free to say whatever you want... but you're not exempt from the consequences thereof, especially as you are in a private forum. I do not have the privilege to define how you express youself - HOWEVER you also do not have the privilege to force other people to put up with your lack of civilized behavior and respect for others. So you're free to be completely free elsewhere if you want to. Here you will have to obey some rules, otherwise you'll be out. It's as simple as that.
Now let's go back to the original subject of this thread.
The truth is after a 1000 words post attacking me you are just provoking because Angela just gave me an infraction and you are dying to do the same. Just do it. You little little man. I dare you to ban me. Have the balls to do it. Just be a big man like Davidski at eurogenes. Long learned lesson.... Never give power to little man. Never.

One important cautionary advise to Maciamo: after Davidski or others in similar Forums allowed this sort of behaviour from moderators their sites went from hundreds of comments and thousand of hits to a shadow of their past. There is a reason for it!
I may be brisk but never offended anyone. There is a difference and this sort of snowflake behaviour from so called moderators are true killers of open debate.
So I am here....
 
The truth is after a 1000 words post attacking me you are just provoking because Angela just gave me an infraction and you are dying to do the same. Just do it. You little little man. I dare you to ban me. Have the balls to do it. Just be a big man like Davidski at eurogenes. Long learned lesson.... Never give power to little man. Never.

One important cautionary advise to Maciamo: after Davidski or others in similar Forums allowed this sort of behaviour from moderators their sites went from hundreds of comments and thousand of hits to a shadow of their past. There is a reason for it!
I may be brisk but never offended anyone. There is a difference and this sort of snowflake behaviour from so called moderators are true killers of open debate.
So I am here....

In Portuguese too: rapaz, para de vitimismo e drama e vai achar algo para fazer. Nós aqui temos uma vida fora desse fórum, tu não passas de um qualquer cujas mensagens nós lemos de vez em quando por aqui. Ninguém tem nenhum interesse nem em te punir, nem em te aplaudir. Indiferente. Tu não és um herói épico perseguido pelos vilões malvados. Já estás me dando vergonha alheia. Vai aproveitar o domingo!

But just before I forget it... Take one more infraction from the little man (oh my God did you really think this would sound offensive to me? lol) for trying to (and failing) offend members of this forum TWICE (and in two different languages). Now go away and remember there is a life out there. You're taking this way too seriously. That probably explains why you're acting so annoyingly. All of this could've been easily solved if you just said "okay, I see, but I didn't aim to offend or provoke anyone". Simple words, but maybe at that moment you lacked the down to earth humbleness that would've saved us time and many characters. Have a nice sunday.
 
In Portuguese too: rapaz, para de vitimismo e drama e vai achar algo para fazer. Nós aqui temos uma vida fora desse fórum, tu não passas de um qualquer cujas mensagens nós lemos de vez em quando por aqui. Ninguém tem nenhum interesse nem em te punir, nem em te aplaudir. Indiferente. Tu não és um herói épico perseguido pelos vilões malvados. Já estás me dando vergonha alheia. Vai aproveitar o domingo!
But just before I forget it... Take one more infraction from the little man (oh my God did you really think this would sound offensive to me? lol) for trying to (and failing) offend members of this forum TWICE (and in two different languages). Now go away and remember there is a life out there. You're taking this way too seriously. That probably explains why you're acting so annoyingly.
Thank you. Rest my case. Lol!!!


.... I need to add: you don't even realize that by your own description and standards you just did what you acuse me of. Someone needed to give you an infraction. Unbelievable.
 
Hallo to everybody. I’m reading these blogs for roughly two years and I highly appreciate your work. Thanks a lot. I sustained myself of posting since I have not enough expertise in this area. But this time it is to challenging. Let me make a few points:

  1. When I observed Muradyim/Kazburun(1890-1750 BCE) haplogroups, I found that the upper levels of mtDNA spectrum cover more than 50% of modern Slovenian population. This is the best match for single settlement up to now. Taking in account that 30% of our male population is carrying R1a-Z280 haplogroup might lead to conclusion that at least 1/3 Slovenians might have ancestry in the Srubna-Andronovo (Alakulskaya)contact zone. This would be the main cluster in the national body.
  2. Slovenians are categorised as South Slavic people in the wider Balto-Slavic IE language tree, with dominant male R1a-Z280 and only small amount of R1a-M458 component which presence can easily be explained by diffusion over time.
  3. Muradym settlement is placed in the area of copper sandstone deposits relatively near to Kalgary mining and metallurgical complex. “Early metallurgy of the Urals (3000 BC) had been developed under influence from the Caucasus. In bronze age the bronze from this area was arsenic. Almost all of the metal produced had only a westward distribution. In 1500 BC there is some indication of invasion. "Living-producing complex" in Gornyi settlement (Srubnaya culture) was burned in a fire. In a roof, tin-bronzearrowhead, different from those of local production, was found. After the decline of the Srubnaya culture, the complex did not function for several centuries.” (Ludmila Koryakova;Andrej Epimakhov. TheUrals and Western Siberia in the Bronze and Iron Ages (CambridgeUniv. Press, 2007)). The time of this hostility roughly coincides with Balto-Slavic language split from main IE language tree.
  4. “The Indo-Europeanization of the steppe occurred when the Maikop people, who spoke late PIE, expanded northwards and transmitted their language to the proto-Yamnaya people together with the CHG component. Because the southern Y-chromosome haplogroups J and L arepresent in Maikop and pre-Maikop but not in the steppe, the CHG component andthe language were transmitted mostly by WOMEN.”(Alexander Kozintsev. PROTO-INDO-EUROPEANS: WHERE, WHEN AND WHENCE? (abstract,2018)).
Are these points correct? What does it mean all this?

  • Is Srubna-Andronvo contact point the place and time when mainly male pre-Balts were Indo-Europeanised with influx of women due to high mobility of steppe people and local exogamic attitude? Is this the cause that now days Balts have a lot of pre-Sanskrit words (more than Balto-Slavic people)?
  • If Indo-Europeanised pre-Balts (or earlyBalts?) are the core group of Slovenian population, where they had received Slavic character? Since there is small amount of R1a-M458 the probable alternatives are: the mix with population with I2a1males, or???

I would appreciate a constructive discussion. Thank’s in advance.
 
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Slovenians are categorised as South Slavic people in the wider Balto-Slavic IE language tree, with dominant male R1a-Z280 and only small amount of R1a-M458 component which presence can easily be explained by diffusion over time.

It is similar to a Croatian sample. Our dominant R1a is R1a-Z280. However, the I2a is more common then R1a, most probably due to a founder effect. For that reason I believe that the medieval Croats and Slovenians came to their present countries with the same migration wave. Were they both originally Balts is an interesting question.
 
Yes, thereare a number of indices to be so, but there are also a number of issues to be clarified.We should wait a little to hear other opinions.

 

According to people on Anthro who examined some of the samples:

scy304 is R1b-Z2103 (M12149/Y4371/Z8128+)
scy305 is R1b-Z2103>Z2106 (Z2106+, Y12538/Z8131+)
Supposedly scy197 and scy301 aren't R1b, but E-V13 and I2-Y7219, respectively.


E-V13,possibly I2a,but also some of the R1b-L23, come from the Getic(Thracian)population.

The archeology supports this,with plenty of evidence,in the entire northwestern Pontic area(Moldavia and SW Ukraine) ,the sedentary Thracian population lived together with the nomadic Scythians.


Thracian-Getic settlements reached the Lower Dnieper area,that will become later the eastern border of Burebista's state,he took Olbia too.


The sites are dated to 7th.c-5th and 5th-3rd if I recall,but if I take into consideration the Babyno culture,we were always there...*


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-cordoned_ware_culture


https://www.e-anthropology.com/English/glinoe_summary/default.aspx


https://www.e-anthropology.com/English/Catalog/Archaeology/STM_DWL_7IrY_i3GjMT2xs4kZ.aspx


https://www.e-anthropology.com/English/Catalog/Archaeology/Telnov.aspx

* not addressed to the speaker
 
E-V13,possibly I2a,but also some of the R1b-L23, come from the Getic(Thracian)population.

The archeology supports this,with plenty of evidence,in the entire northwestern Pontic area(Moldavia and SW Ukraine) ,the sedentary Thracian population lived together with the nomadic Scythians.


Thracian-Getic settlements reached the Lower Dnieper area,that will become later the eastern border of Burebista's state,he took Olbia too.


The sites are dated to 7th.c-5th and 5th-3rd if I recall,but if I take into consideration the Babyno culture,we were always there...*


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-cordoned_ware_culture


https://www.e-anthropology.com/English/glinoe_summary/default.aspx


https://www.e-anthropology.com/English/Catalog/Archaeology/STM_DWL_7IrY_i3GjMT2xs4kZ.aspx


https://www.e-anthropology.com/English/Catalog/Archaeology/Telnov.aspx

* not addressed to the speaker

To be clear, E-V13 almost always plot with other south Europeans, so it was not derived from the steppe, but rather a culture that spread farming northwards into Europe. Quite possibly a LBK related or C-T related culture that has inhabited the territory 7500 years or less. Another point of clarification is that the "I2a" is under M223>L701 which is closely related to the Yamnaya type, rather than the Atlantic-Neolithic I2-M223-M284. Also not to be confused with the very populous I2-M423 branches that are found heavily in the Slavic speaking regions there today. Again, completely unrelated group.
 
To be clear, E-V13 almost always plot with other south Europeans, so it was not derived from the steppe, but rather a culture that spread farming northwards into Europe. Quite possibly a LBK related or C-T related culture that has inhabited the territory 7500 years or less. Another point of clarification is that the "I2a" is under M223>L701 which is closely related to the Yamnaya type, rather than the Atlantic-Neolithic I2-M223-M284. Also not to be confused with the very populous I2-M423 branches that are found heavily in the Slavic speaking regions there today. Again, completely unrelated group.


There are clear differences between the LBK and Cucuteni,the first one represents the initial wave,proved as mostly G2a,while latter is a new entry in the area,judging by the ceramics and female figurines,it resembles the Levant-Mesopotamia,so you'd better don't mix these things up.


Later ,cultures at least partially similar to Cucuteni can be found in the Balkans-Danube,such as Gumelnita or Vinca,all of these three are very good candidates for E-V13,if it came to this area in the Neolithic.


An important issue,is the fact that Late Tripolye settlements have survived the first Yamnaya,IE, waves,by moving en-masse to the hillside,most likely absorbed by the following, long lasting, IE cultures from these areas,such as the Western Catacomb or Babyno.


The other two places where E-V13 could have survived are Carpathians and the mountains from the Balkans(Vinca culture).


What is for sure,this HG was not involved in the formation of the IE people,other than Paleo-Balkanics and Greeks.
 
No wonder,they were matriarchal...


https://romaniadacia.wordpress.com/...elnita/cucuteni-trypillian-figurines-romania/


Paleo-Balkanics were clearly a patriarchal society, this is were the mismatch appears.





In the traditional Romanian society, the woman had many rights,was independent,couldn't be different, because she had shepherd relatives with big bats,staffs,usually very tenacious(she), but she liked to play by the standards,was feminine*, clearly not some sort of valkirie or amazon.


Still,since both husband and wife were very vigorous, conflicts appeared,if it wasn't something serious, the man instantly restored woman's dignity,that's because she was both his status and personal assistant.

*in actions


EDIT


In any case ,the man cared about his woman,he didn't applied... strategic beatings,but he had to make sure he's more dominant, because his wife was steady and many times not eager to follow him that easy.


Another thing,sentiments *were clearly involved in these relations,but usually somehow coulder(yet long lasting) than in the Mediterranean or Slavic societies.

*still,breaking them,would have boosted the momentum...
 
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The use of the label 'Cimmerians' is very problematic because in ancient sources it seems like a term used for some pre-Scythian inhabitants of the Pontic-Caspian steppe, some of whom migrated to West Asia after the Scythian migrations. Can we label all pre-Scythian inhabitants of the Steppe 'Cimmerians'? Those samples are rather late (less than 3000 y. ago)

The term Scythians is used in a way which is probably inconsistent too. Those who use it should clarify some things. Can we call, for example, al post 6th century BC nomads of Western steppes 'Scythians'? Is that really helpful or it creates more problems?

I don't understand why they use the label 'Sarmatian' for samples in the Southern Urals and Bashkortostan either.
 
Hallo to everybody. I’m reading these blogs for roughly two years and I highly appreciate your work. Thanks a lot. I sustained myself of posting since I have not enough expertise in this area. But this time it is to challenging. Let me make a few points:

  1. When I observed Muradyim/Kazburun(1890-1750 BCE) haplogroups, I found that the upper levels of mtDNA spectrum cover more than 50% of modern Slovenian population. This is the best match for single settlement up to now. Taking in account that 30% of our male population is carrying R1a-Z280 haplogroup might lead to conclusion that at least 1/3 Slovenians might have ancestry in the Srubna-Andronovo (Alakulskaya)contact zone. This would be the main cluster in the national body.
  2. Slovenians are categorised as South Slavic people in the wider Balto-Slavic IE language tree, with dominant male R1a-Z280 and only small amount of R1a-M458 component which presence can easily be explained by diffusion over time.
  3. Muradym settlement is placed in the area of copper sandstone deposits relatively near to Kalgary mining and metallurgical complex. “Early metallurgy of the Urals (3000 BC) had been developed under influence from the Caucasus. In bronze age the bronze from this area was arsenic. Almost all of the metal produced had only a westward distribution. In 1500 BC there is some indication of invasion. "Living-producing complex" in Gornyi settlement (Srubnaya culture) was burned in a fire. In a roof, tin-bronzearrowhead, different from those of local production, was found. After the decline of the Srubnaya culture, the complex did not function for several centuries.” (Ludmila Koryakova;Andrej Epimakhov. TheUrals and Western Siberia in the Bronze and Iron Ages (CambridgeUniv. Press, 2007)). The time of this hostility roughly coincides with Balto-Slavic language split from main IE language tree.
  4. “The Indo-Europeanization of the steppe occurred when the Maikop people, who spoke late PIE, expanded northwards and transmitted their language to the proto-Yamnaya people together with the CHG component. Because the southern Y-chromosome haplogroups J and L arepresent in Maikop and pre-Maikop but not in the steppe, the CHG component andthe language were transmitted mostly by WOMEN.”(Alexander Kozintsev. PROTO-INDO-EUROPEANS: WHERE, WHEN AND WHENCE? (abstract,2018)).
Are these points correct? What does it mean all this?

  • Is Srubna-Andronvo contact point the place and time when mainly male pre-Balts were Indo-Europeanised with influx of women due to high mobility of steppe people and local exogamic attitude? Is this the cause that now days Balts have a lot of pre-Sanskrit words (more than Balto-Slavic people)?
  • If Indo-Europeanised pre-Balts (or earlyBalts?) are the core group of Slovenian population, where they had received Slavic character? Since there is small amount of R1a-M458 the probable alternatives are: the mix with population with I2a1males, or???

I would appreciate a constructive discussion. Thank’s in advance.

I have placed the possible place of origin of Avars near Ufa and I had considered them to have been possibly Ugric, because Theophylact says they were from the river Til 'whom the Turks call Black'. Therefore I had assumed that the source says they were from 'Kara Itil' ('a left tributary to the Kama was named the Aq Itil “White Itil” which unites with the Kara Itil “Black Itil” at the modern city of Ufa.')

The proto-Balts should descend from a Late PIE group and Late PIE should be placed in Balkans, for example Romania works (Cucuteni etc.). Proto-Balts imo, could have been even GAC like. EEF and WHG ancestry increased after the Neolithic in the Baltic region, if I am not wrong.

Groups from the Balkans and Caucasus (EEF rich and IE related imo) played a role in the diffusion of the metallurgy, important role in proto-Uralic and possibly a (more minor) role in proto-Turkic too.

The expansion of Indo-Aryans happened at a relatively late date and based on the data I have seen a southern route is at least possible.
 
I have placed the possible place of origin of Avars near Ufa and I had considered them to have been possibly Ugric, because Theophylact says they were from the river Til 'whom the Turks call Black'. Therefore I had assumed that the source says they were from 'Kara Itil' ('a left tributary to the Kama was named the Aq Itil “White Itil” which unites with the Kara Itil “Black Itil” at the modern city of Ufa.')


Do you mean that “White Itil” and “Black Itil” to be modern days “Belaya river” and “Ufa river”?

Well, scholars definitely distinguish Avars from Slavs. Even they would had had genetically similar origin, their path through history in few thousand years is different. Avars probably picked up members of Slavic tribes on their way and/or facilitated their migration.

But regarding “Ugric”, there might be something on it. If you look genetic average distances between modern Hungarian, Croatian and Slovenian population, you will always find relatively small triangle in the PCA graphs. One possible explanation might be, that in the Ufa region was at the time certain genetical admixture or mixture of tribes with language gradient from “Ugric” biased to “(Balto)(proto)(Slavic)?” biased. And, due to some historical events, the “(proto)Slavic” part later migrated to the west, probably landing in the Komarev area or elsewhere(?).
 
Avars came probably from somewhere near river Ob,that's why were called Obri in Slavic if i follow my logic and yes i think they were Ugric speakers too.

I even hypothesize they were Hungarian speakers originally,like one Hungarian scholar suggested.
On the river Ob live Mansi and Khanty,the Hungarian language relatives.
 
Avars came probably from somewhere near river Ob,that's why were called Obri in Slavic if i follow my logic and yes i think they were Ugric speakers too.

I even hypothesize they were Hungarian speakers originally,like one Hungarian scholar suggested.
On the river Ob live Mansi and Khanty,the Hungarian language relatives.

Calling Avars Turkic is so sloppy people should just call them what they are Slavic/Mongolian mixed people from Central Asia. They exist today too that's why Central Asians have a higher percentage of light hair and eyes than normal Mongolic people
 
Calling Avars Turkic is so sloppy people should just call them what they are Slavic/Mongolian mixed people from Central Asia. They exist today too that's why Central Asians have a higher percentage of light hair and eyes than normal Mongolic people

If his description was sloppy, yours was abominable. Light hair and eyes in central Asians (both Turkic and Mongolic) long predates "Slavs". The Yenisei Kirghiz, Borjigin Mongols, etc were all blue eyed and blond/red haired Caucasoids without any Slavic admixture.
 

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