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Thread: Poland-Middle Neolithic to the Bronze Age

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    markod

    Those CWC samples are very diverse internally, with the women pulling closer to the steppe and the men pulling closer to WHG, consistent with their I2a2 haplogroups. CWC seems to have been in serious decline a few hundred years after its explosive expansion. I wonder what caused this.

    One is also tempted to believe that the WHGs had some kind of adaptive advantage, seeing how WHG-rich groups managed to bounce back against farmers and herders so many times despite having no particularly innovations to boast of. Perhaps they were strongly selected for physical performance or cold climate resistance.


    Big dick energy

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    So, a little bit off topic but, i've noticed that the sample of this paper were already on uMap, wich is an interactive map of ancient samples. But this map doesn't contain all the ancient samples that we know as today, do anybody knows why?
    can you provide a link to uMap?

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    more Y-DNA from Vladimir Semargl :


    Vladimir Semargl, three individuals from Neolithic Poland, N26, N27, and N28, are all G-PF3345 but ancestral for all G-U1, G-L497, and G-CTS342 SNPs with reads. However, YFull has 4 other single individuals who are in their own basal branches of G-PF3345*. Would it be possible to check these kits for the "novel" YFull SNPs for these other branches? Thanks.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1309370204

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    can you provide a link to uMap?
    http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/...#4/50.09/46.00

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    A great tool. Thanks, halfalp.
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    Thank you for sharing the tracing of Poland's culture. Tracing the steps backward and forward is a reminder of just how much has happening. That at one time would have seemed strange yet seeing it unfold before our eyes is one more reminder that Ancient History is more than old isn't just collected dust. I have to wonder how one piece of any puzzle is enough when so much has come before. Human Evolution has been a process of sytematic transitions and any opportunity to uncove another pieces is beyond existence and has led to settled communities.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    Origin of the I2-Dinaric folks, pushed initially west by R1a, later pushed east by I1/R1b Jastorf, end up in western Ukraine when the Scythians collapsed and merged with the local R1a folks to form the Slavs. Ta da.
    I2-Dinaric hasn't been found in ancient DNA to date, almost all of the I2 found has been branched under M223. In fact, even the CWC R1a seems more closely related to Scandinavian and western European R1a such as L664 (a rare lineage today, suggesting it was superseded by later R1b- BBC?) The most successful branches of CWC are alive and well in Scandinavia since the Battle Axe culture. (ie: Z284)

    I think you'll find R1a-M458 and I2-Dinaric as being the melting pot of Slavic ancestry originating in NW Russia/Belarus ie:Pripet marshes. I know this is politically unpopular, but likely the reality. I would be extremely surprised if I2-Dinaric originated in the Balkans and just happened to expand rapidly from the region all over central-eastern Europe. The historic record, archaeological record, and now the aDNA record does not suggest it.

    Ancient Balkan hunter-gatherers were probably R1b-V88 and I2-M223 since the last glacial retreat, and possibly something else even before that, such as C-V20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    more Y-DNA from Vladimir Semargl :


    Vladimir Semargl, three individuals from Neolithic Poland, N26, N27, and N28, are all G-PF3345 but ancestral for all G-U1, G-L497, and G-CTS342 SNPs with reads. However, YFull has 4 other single individuals who are in their own basal branches of G-PF3345*. Would it be possible to check these kits for the "novel" YFull SNPs for these other branches? Thanks.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1309370204
    G-L497 is the common European type just downstream of this, so I wonder if the founder lived somewhere near Poland or in central Europe somewhere. Here I was thinking L497 arrived recently, but maybe only 1-2 of the Neolithic communities needed to leave any descendants, because up to this point, the excavated subclades haven't seemed to produce many descendants in modern day. This doesn't seem the case with L497+, there are many of them, especially in the core of central Europe and southern Europe. Somewhere like Italy or Spain might also be a candidate for the birth of L497+ if not Germany/Poland.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    G-L497 is the common European type just downstream of this, so I wonder if the founder lived somewhere near Poland or in central Europe somewhere. Here I was thinking L497 arrived recently, but maybe only 1-2 of the Neolithic communities needed to leave any descendants, because up to this point, the excavated subclades haven't seemed to produce many descendants in modern day. This doesn't seem the case with L497+, there are many of them, especially in the core of central Europe and southern Europe. Somewhere like Italy or Spain might also be a candidate for the birth of L497+ if not Germany/Poland.
    no,

    G-PF3345 PF3345formed 11000 ybp, TMRCA 10700 ybp

    G-L497 Z750/CTS8506 * Z744 * Z754/PF6852+47 SNPsformed 10700 ybp, TMRCA 7200 ybp

    L497 was born 10.7 ka, that must have been in Anatolia
    he expanded 7.2 ka though, probably in Europe

    the Polish are PF3345*, certainly a dead end

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    no,
    G-PF3345 PF3345formed 11000 ybp, TMRCA 10700 ybp
    G-L497 Z750/CTS8506 * Z744 * Z754/PF6852+47 SNPsformed 10700 ybp, TMRCA 7200 ybp
    L497 was born 10.7 ka, that must have been in Anatolia
    he expanded 7.2 ka though, probably in Europe
    the Polish are PF3345*, certainly a dead end
    L497 itself is only one of 47 L497-equivalent SNPs, so might have been the last of these SNPs to arise, putting its age into a confidence interval that might not exceed 4,200 BC (well within the European Neolithic timeframe). STR variance analysis also gives a significantly more recent birth date than SNP variance analysis, possibly bringing L497's true origin date even further forward. Even PF3345's formation date falls within a confidence interval that includes the relatively recent 7,600 BC.

    While the Neolithic Polish PF3345 might be a dead end (most ancient samples are), it also seems quite possible that it was the direct ancestor of one or more of the four modern PF3345* samples shown on yfull, particularly as PF3345 is (i) a lone SNP, and (ii) likely to have originated in Anatolia despite all known PF3345* samples (both ancient and modern) being located in Europe.

    The important thing to notice is that most, and possibly all, of the branches of PF3345 (and also its immediate ancestor) appear to be wholly located in or to coalesce to estimated origin points in Europe - indeed, quite far into Europe - Poland, North West Ukraine, Norway, Southern Germany. If PF3345 and L497 were spawned in Anatolia, it appears they had little or no impact there, and only came into fruition in Europe.

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