Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: Earliest evidence of spoken Slavic language

  1. #1
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    13-01-12
    Location
    Bucharest
    Posts
    922
    Points
    12,914
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,914, Level: 34
    Level completed: 38%, Points required for next Level: 436
    Overall activity: 19.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    proly R1B

    Ethnic group
    Romanian
    Country: Romania



    Earliest evidence of spoken Slavic language



    Hello

    I was curious, what is the earliest evidence of spoken Slavic language?
    Like some written document in Slavic or some serious documents from historians.
    I suppose that are not early archaeological evidences of Slavic languages.
    Also, what is the theory about Slavic languages, is there any written proof of a ProtoSlavic language?
    I guess there is a supposition of ProtoSlavic language, but is there any mention anywhere that ProtoSlavic language have existed?
    Are there any attempts to reconstruct the ProtoSlavic language?

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    762
    Points
    6,054
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,054, Level: 23
    Level completed: 1%, Points required for next Level: 496
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Sweden



    https://link.springer.com/article/10...185-015-9150-9

    Mutual intelligibility between West and South Slavic languages

    Abstract

    In the present study we tested the level of mutual intelligibility between three West Slavic (Czech, Slovak and Polish) and three South Slavic languages (Croatian, Slovene and Bulgarian). Three different methods were used: a word translation task, a cloze test and a picture task. The results show that in most cases, a division between West and South Slavic languages does exist and that West Slavic languages are more intelligible among speakers of West Slavic languages than among those of South Slavic languages. We found an asymmetry in Croatian-Slovene intelligibility, whereby Slovene speakers can understand written and spoken Croatian better than vice versa. Finally, we compared the three methods and found that the word translation task and the cloze test give very similar results, while the results of the picture task are somewhat unreliable.

  3. #3
    Enfant Terrible Achievements:
    1 year registered500 Experience Points
    Wonomyro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-17
    Posts
    462
    Points
    890
    Level
    7
    Points: 890, Level: 7
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 60
    Overall activity: 35.0%


    Country: Croatia



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    I was curious, what is the earliest evidence of spoken Slavic language?
    This one is partly Church Slavonic:

    Baška tablet (Croatian: Bašćanska ploča, pronounced [bâʃt͡ɕanskaː plɔ̂t͡ʃa]) is one of the first monuments containing an inscription in the Croatian recension of the Church Slavonic language, dating from c. 1100.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba%C5%A1ka_tablet

    This one is written in a spoken language:

    Law Codex of Vinodol or Vinodol statute (Croatian: Vinodolski zakonik) is one of the oldest law texts written in the Chakavian dialect of Croatian language and is among the oldest Slavic codes.[1][2][3] It was written in the Glagolitic alphabet. It was originally compiled in 1288 by a commission of 42 members in Novi Vinodolski, a town on the Adriatic Sea coast in Croatia, located south of Crikvenica, Selce and Bribir and north of Senj. However, the codex itself is preserved in a 16th-century copy.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinodol_Codex

    Although Church Slavonic hampered vernacular literatures, it fostered Slavonic literary activity and abetted linguistic independence from external influences. Only the Croatian vernacular literary tradition nearly matches Church Slavonic in age.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_languages

    Old Church Slavonic was created in 9th century based on a local Slavic dialect of Thessalonica:

    The 9th-century Byzantine missionaries Saints Cyril and Methodius are credited with standardizing the language and using it in translating the Bible and other Ancient Greek ecclesiastical texts as part of the Christianization of the Slavs.[5][6] It is thought to have been based primarily on the dialect of the 9th century Byzantine Slavs living in the Province of Thessalonica (now in Greece).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic

    Old Novgorod dialect (Russian: древненовгородский диалект, translit. drevnenovgorodskiy dialekt; also translated as Old Novgorodian or Ancient Novgorod dialect) is a term introduced by Andrey Zaliznyak to describe the dialect found in the Old East Slavic birch bark writings ("berestyanaya gramota"). Dating from the 11th to 15th centuries, the letters were excavated in Novgorod and its surroundings.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Novgorod_dialect
    Neopisivo

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    13-01-12
    Location
    Bucharest
    Posts
    922
    Points
    12,914
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,914, Level: 34
    Level completed: 38%, Points required for next Level: 436
    Overall activity: 19.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    proly R1B

    Ethnic group
    Romanian
    Country: Romania



    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    This one is partly Church Slavonic:



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba%C5%A1ka_tablet

    This one is written in a spoken language:



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinodol_Codex



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_languages

    Old Church Slavonic was created in 9th century based on a local Slavic dialect of Thessalonica:



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Novgorod_dialect
    Thank you very much mate.
    Very comprehensive response.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-05-18
    Posts
    59
    Points
    907
    Level
    7
    Points: 907, Level: 7
    Level completed: 79%, Points required for next Level: 43
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Serbia



    Earliest evidence is, of course, Old Church Slavonic language, but, why is that important?

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    13-01-12
    Location
    Bucharest
    Posts
    922
    Points
    12,914
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,914, Level: 34
    Level completed: 38%, Points required for next Level: 436
    Overall activity: 19.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    proly R1B

    Ethnic group
    Romanian
    Country: Romania



    @Srbadija:
    I was curious.
    Because from what I understand Sclaveni means people that are speaking same language.
    Which supports the idea that at a time, South Slavs, West Slavs and East Slavs spoke all the same language.
    Some people say that Slavic appeared branching from a common Slavic-BaltoSlavic language.
    But I think Slavic language actually appeared from the migration South of some Balto-Slavic speakers, that assimilated local Gothic tribes, Thracian and Dacian tribes and Iranic tribes (like Sarmatians) and what other people where in the area.
    Balto-Slavic people are renown as very tough fighters, only the Teutonic knights with very superior equipment and battle techniques could defeat the Old Prussians for example.
    Is very possible that some BaltoSlavic people were sometimes going Viking together with their Northern neighbors from South Sweden or Denmark or Norway.
    There is plenty of R1A on the shores of Ireland and Scotland where Vikings have raided and also, so called "Eastern European admixture",not so plenty, but some.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second Class10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Dibran's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-09-16
    Posts
    814
    Points
    12,582
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,582, Level: 33
    Level completed: 91%, Points required for next Level: 68
    Overall activity: 33.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a-L1029*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H11a2*-146+

    Ethnic group
    Albanian/Gheg/Dibran/Okshtun
    Country: United States



    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    @Srbadija:
    I was curious.
    Because from what I understand Sclaveni means people that are speaking same language.
    Which supports the idea that at a time, South Slavs, West Slavs and East Slavs spoke all the same language.
    Some people say that Slavic appeared branching from a common Slavic-BaltoSlavic language.
    But I think Slavic language actually appeared from the migration South of some Balto-Slavic speakers, that assimilated local Gothic tribes, Thracian and Dacian tribes and Iranic tribes (like Sarmatians) and what other people where in the area.
    Balto-Slavic people are renown as very tough fighters, only the Teutonic knights with very superior equipment and battle techniques could defeat the Old Prussians for example.
    Is very possible that some BaltoSlavic people were sometimes going Viking together with their Northern neighbors from South Sweden or Denmark or Norway.
    There is plenty of R1A on the shores of Ireland and Scotland where Vikings have raided and also, so called "Eastern European admixture",not so plenty, but some.
    Wrong. Viking R1a that can be called specifically Scandinavian in nature is Z284. This clade is virtually absent in Slavs, outside perhaps some Poles, and Balts, which makes sense given geographic proximity.

    The supposed "Proto-Slavic" Cultures are all located around the Danube. The most popular of which is between southern poland, northern romania, and western ukraine(give or take some approximations). The popular theory is they were located either somewhere north of the Danube, or on the upper Danube bordering the lower Danube. The Proto-Slavs already had heavy "southern" admixture prior to invading the Balkans for instance, which is why I don't buy the claim that all their neolithic type admixture is southern balkan derived. The North regions associated with the Slavs were the domain of the Balts. So either Proto-Slavs were located somewhere south-west of the Balts or South-East of them. somewhere on the Danube. The other less supported theory being that Proto-Slavic evolved from a Southern Baltic tribe that absorbed Goths, and others located on the Danube.

    The only surefire Culture linked to the blanket Balto-Slavs is the Terzniec Culture, which supposedly evolved from the Corded Ware folk, possibly being connected or related to Lusatian Culture which was more central european. Theres really no way to know without ADNA. The only line we have plenty ADNA for is Z280. which was found everywhere in the Balts, and recently a basal sample in Ukraine. A few modern specific subclades of Z280 are more Western however, and so far only found in Germany, Britain, Netherlands, and Sweden(with some downstream balts from the Swede). These are clades CTS1055, YP5000, S24902, and YP4094.

    Most all I2a1b-CTS10228, is characteristically only found in Slavs in abundance. Despite its basal clade being old, the clades to which over 95 percent of carriers belong to are quite young, only 1000-1700 years old. The only ADNA we have for I2a1b is a medieval Slavic Pole who is positive for the parent clade of all living CTS10228 found in modern carriers.

    M458 is more problematic. Theres 3 major sublcades, L260, which is found mostly in West Slavs, YP515, which is mostly found in East Slavs, and L1029, which is found in both west and east Slavs, with its highest frequency in Germans and Poles, but its highest diversity in Romania. In the Balkans, L1029 is the most common variety. Predominantly found in Romanians, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Northern Greeks etc. YP417 is most common L1029 clade with YP263 following in second place. Both clades between 1900-2000ypb. Currently the only M458 ADNA is from the later middle ages so its not very helpful. The problem with these is they practiced Cremation. Hence my connection of M458 with possibly Free Dacians, due to the same practices of dealing with their dead.

    Its all very complicating. I2a1b, R1a-Z280, R1a-M458 definitely took part in the Proto-Slavic ethnogenesis. Some clades in each branch are questionable, but the majority is younger. For instance clades under YP263 and YP417 they belong are younger, between 1400-1600ypb. Those of basal clades which are few(like myself) could possibly be traced to Proto-Slavic ethnogenesis, maybe Bastarnae, or Free Dacians. But thats really it. Unless a ancient sample of L1029 that is as old as the founder of the clade is found(3100ypb) pushing back the TMRCA, then most of it is probably due to survivors of these scattered danubian tribes that took part in Proto-Slavic ethnogenesis.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    13-01-12
    Location
    Bucharest
    Posts
    922
    Points
    12,914
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,914, Level: 34
    Level completed: 38%, Points required for next Level: 436
    Overall activity: 19.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    proly R1B

    Ethnic group
    Romanian
    Country: Romania



    @Dibran:
    What about the R1A-Z280 from Russia, is that related to Balto-Slavic people, or it is not?
    As for Eastern European admixture that is present on the shores of Britain and Ireland where the vikings raided, it was brought by North Germanic speakers?
    Which means north Germanic speakers were already carrying in that time the so called "Eastern European" admixture?

  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-05-18
    Posts
    59
    Points
    907
    Level
    7
    Points: 907, Level: 7
    Level completed: 79%, Points required for next Level: 43
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Serbia



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran
    So either Proto-Slavs were located somewhere south-west of the Balts or South-East of them. somewhere on the Danube. The other less supported theory being that Proto-Slavic evolved from a Southern Baltic tribe that absorbed Goths, and others located on the Danube.
    When you speak about Balts and Slavs, it's only about terminology. According to archaeology, it's impossible to make accurate interpretation when were Slavs separated (and did they).

    So when you say "Southern Baltic tribe", it is also matter of terminology.

    General consensus between linguists is that East Baltic and West Baltic languages didn't form their proto-language which would not including Slavic one, which in adittion means that "Proto-Baltic" means Proto-Balto-Slavic.

    Those; proto-Balto-Slavic splitted into three branches: ancestor dialect of East Baltic (Lithuanian, Latvian), ancestor of West Baltic (Prussian) and ancestor of Slavic, and they were equidistant, then Slavic differentiated in year 1500 BC (while West and East Baltic continued development without differentiation. So it's all about terminology, if you rename Slavic as "South Baltic" then you can rename proto-Balto-Slavic into proto-Baltic. But also phrase that "Balts are conglomerate of non-Slavic speaking Balto-Slavs" is correct. So, it's really question of terminology.

    But to say that Slavic descended from Baltic, it would be same to say that (modern) humans descend from (modern) monkeys. But it isn't like that, right? Both (humans and monkeys) have the same ancestor, and humans doesn't descend from modern monkeys.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-05-18
    Posts
    59
    Points
    907
    Level
    7
    Points: 907, Level: 7
    Level completed: 79%, Points required for next Level: 43
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    @Dibran:
    What about the R1A-Z280 from Russia, is that related to Balto-Slavic people, or it is not?
    As for Eastern European admixture that is present on the shores of Britain and Ireland where the vikings raided, it was brought by North Germanic speakers?
    Which means north Germanic speakers were already carrying in that time the so called "Eastern European" admixture?
    In short; All R1a-Z280 are Balto-Slavic.

    Z284 is another thing. It have the same ancestors as Z280 (Balto-Slavs), but not necessary belong to this group. Because of that, there is discussion about existence of Germano-Balto-Slavic language.

    What can be said is that in proto-Germanic there are words which are of non-IE origin, while in Balto-Slavic, there are no such words.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second Class10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Dibran's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-09-16
    Posts
    814
    Points
    12,582
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,582, Level: 33
    Level completed: 91%, Points required for next Level: 68
    Overall activity: 33.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a-L1029*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H11a2*-146+

    Ethnic group
    Albanian/Gheg/Dibran/Okshtun
    Country: United States



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    @Dibran:
    What about the R1A-Z280 from Russia, is that related to Balto-Slavic people, or it is not?
    As for Eastern European admixture that is present on the shores of Britain and Ireland where the vikings raided, it was brought by North Germanic speakers?
    Which means north Germanic speakers were already carrying in that time the so called "Eastern European" admixture?
    Yes. The Z280 in Russians is certainly Balto-Slavic. The Germanics have been historically neighbors with Balto-Slavs, so its not unheard of that they carried East European admixture, as certainly many Germans do today as do Scandinavians. Also Slavic Pirates took part in the Heathen Army that moved with the Vikings. It could easily just as well be from them. Theres some M458 and Z280 which is surely due to Slavic Pirates/Saxons that assimilated Balts etc.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second Class10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Dibran's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-09-16
    Posts
    814
    Points
    12,582
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,582, Level: 33
    Level completed: 91%, Points required for next Level: 68
    Overall activity: 33.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a-L1029*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H11a2*-146+

    Ethnic group
    Albanian/Gheg/Dibran/Okshtun
    Country: United States



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Srbadija View Post
    In short; All R1a-Z280 are Balto-Slavic.

    Z284 is another thing. It have the same ancestors as Z280 (Balto-Slavs), but not necessary belong to this group. Because of that, there is discussion about existence of Germano-Balto-Slavic language.


    What can be said is that in proto-Germanic there are words which are of non-IE origin, while in Balto-Slavic, there are no such words.
    Yes and no. Z280 is not entirely Balto Slavic, but only CTS1211 and Z92. The aforementioned clades CTS1055, YP5000, S24902, and YP4094 are not found in Slavic speakers. Therefore considering all Slavic/Baltic Z280 predominantly belongs to only CTS1211 and Z92, the other clades as for now cannot be associated with Balto-Slavs when they don't even carry any of it. The only basal Z280 is a Ukrainian, and recent studies found basal Z280 in a Pre-Scythian around the Chernolyes Cultural zone.

    Words in Proto-Germanic not IE are probably due to I1 lineages.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second Class10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Dibran's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-09-16
    Posts
    814
    Points
    12,582
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,582, Level: 33
    Level completed: 91%, Points required for next Level: 68
    Overall activity: 33.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a-L1029*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H11a2*-146+

    Ethnic group
    Albanian/Gheg/Dibran/Okshtun
    Country: United States



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Srbadija View Post
    When you speak about Balts and Slavs, it's only about terminology. According to archaeology, it's impossible to make accurate interpretation when were Slavs separated (and did they).

    So when you say "Southern Baltic tribe", it is also matter of terminology.

    General consensus between linguists is that East Baltic and West Baltic languages didn't form their proto-language which would not including Slavic one, which in adittion means that "Proto-Baltic" means Proto-Balto-Slavic.

    Those; proto-Balto-Slavic splitted into three branches: ancestor dialect of East Baltic (Lithuanian, Latvian), ancestor of West Baltic (Prussian) and ancestor of Slavic, and they were equidistant, then Slavic differentiated in year 1500 BC (while West and East Baltic continued development without differentiation. So it's all about terminology, if you rename Slavic as "South Baltic" then you can rename proto-Balto-Slavic into proto-Baltic. But also phrase that "Balts are conglomerate of non-Slavic speaking Balto-Slavs" is correct. So, it's really question of terminology.

    But to say that Slavic descended from Baltic, it would be same to say that (modern) humans descend from (modern) monkeys. But it isn't like that, right? Both (humans and monkeys) have the same ancestor, and humans doesn't descend from modern monkeys.
    Well its not my theory. I forget who spearheaded that idea of Slavic evolving from Baltic. However its clear Z280(CTS1211 and Z92) are the quintessential lineage of linguistic unity between Slavs and Balts. You are wrong in one thing. Proto-Slavic is only attested in the early middle ages, and is believed to have developed only in the Iron Age. There was no such thing as Proto-Slavic in 1500BC let alone Slavic, so I think you are jumping the gun there. Around that time period there was still probably a Balto-Slavic union before divergence. Proto-Balto-Slavic is probably only dated to around 2000-2500BC anyway. Not Slavic, which only diverged from Proto-Slavic in the middle ages, and then individual Slavic languages from Common Slavic in the high middle ages.

  14. #14
    Moderator Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Awards:
    Most Popular

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,727
    Points
    26,994
    Level
    50
    Points: 26,994, Level: 50
    Level completed: 45%, Points required for next Level: 556
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Wrong. Viking R1a that can be called specifically Scandinavian in nature is Z284. This clade is virtually absent in Slavs, outside perhaps some Poles, and Balts, which makes sense given geographic proximity.

    The supposed "Proto-Slavic" Cultures are all located around the Danube. The most popular of which is between southern poland, northern romania, and western ukraine(give or take some approximations). The popular theory is they were located either somewhere north of the Danube, or on the upper Danube bordering the lower Danube. The Proto-Slavs already had heavy "southern" admixture prior to invading the Balkans for instance, which is why I don't buy the claim that all their neolithic type admixture is southern balkan derived. The North regions associated with the Slavs were the domain of the Balts. So either Proto-Slavs were located somewhere south-west of the Balts or South-East of them. somewhere on the Danube. The other less supported theory being that Proto-Slavic evolved from a Southern Baltic tribe that absorbed Goths, and others located on the Danube.
    Excellent, very informative post, thank you. But only a small quibble of mine: isn't the homeland most often posited for Proto-Slavic a bit tofor far away from the Danube for you to say it was located "somewhere on the Danube"? The most likely Urheimat was somewhere between Southern Poland, Northwestern Ukraine, Southern Belarus and Northern Romania, as you yourself mentioned in your post. That's to the north of the Danube, but far enough (and with the Carpathians and the Slovakian mountains making the traverse harder), isn't it? AFAIK the region most identified by archaeologists as the probable homeland of Proto-Slavs is in and around the Pripyat Marshes, so more on the Ukraine/Belarus border than anywhere near the Danube.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-05-18
    Posts
    59
    Points
    907
    Level
    7
    Points: 907, Level: 7
    Level completed: 79%, Points required for next Level: 43
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Serbia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Well its not my theory. I forget who spearheaded that idea of Slavic evolving from Baltic. However its clear Z280(CTS1211 and Z92) are the quintessential lineage of linguistic unity between Slavs and Balts. You are wrong in one thing. Proto-Slavic is only attested in the early middle ages, and is believed to have developed only in the Iron Age. There was no such thing as Proto-Slavic in 1500BC let alone Slavic, so I think you are jumping the gun there. Around that time period there was still probably a Balto-Slavic union before divergence. Proto-Balto-Slavic is probably only dated to around 2000-2500BC anyway. Not Slavic, which only diverged from Proto-Slavic in the middle ages, and then individual Slavic languages from Common Slavic in the high middle ages.
    When i say Slavic, i mean the dialect from 1500 BC, which separated and became ancestral to proto-Slavic.
    And no, proto-Slavic doesn't mean only early middle ages.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Slavic#Introduction

    "Proto-Slavic is divided into periods. One division is made up of three periods:[2]

    • Early Proto-Slavic (until 1000 BC)
    • Middle Proto-Slavic (1000 BC – AD 1)
    • Late Proto-Slavic (AD 1–600)"



    Late Proto-Slavic is actually proto-Slavic in literally meaning of it.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-05-18
    Posts
    59
    Points
    907
    Level
    7
    Points: 907, Level: 7
    Level completed: 79%, Points required for next Level: 43
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Excellent, very informative post, thank you. But only a small quibble of mine: isn't the homeland most often posited for Proto-Slavic a bit tofor far away from the Danube for you to say it was located "somewhere on the Danube"? The most likely Urheimat was somewhere between Southern Poland, Northwestern Ukraine, Southern Belarus and Northern Romania, as you yourself mentioned in your post. That's to the north of the Danube, but far enough (and with the Carpathians and the Slovakian mountains making the traverse harder), isn't it? AFAIK the region most identified by archaeologists as the probable homeland of Proto-Slavs is in and around the Pripyat Marshes, so more on the Ukraine/Belarus border than anywhere near the Danube.


    Red dots = ancient Slavic toponyms (hydronyms).

    So, it's possible also the Middle Dnieper region.

  17. #17
    Moderator Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Awards:
    Most Popular

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,727
    Points
    26,994
    Level
    50
    Points: 26,994, Level: 50
    Level completed: 45%, Points required for next Level: 556
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by Srbadija View Post


    Red dots = ancient Slavic toponyms (hydronyms).

    So, it's possible also the Middle Dnieper region.
    Yes, you're right, I had forgot that point, but it's really another possibility. Anyway, I do not think any of the most prevalent hypothesis about the Proto-Slavic homeland places them anywhere in or near the Danube river. They're usually placed on the north/northeast of the Carpathians and the Ore Mountains. And I think that makes sense if you consider the Slavic hydronyms, the presence of some Indo-Iranian influence and the genetic makeup (haplogroups and so on) that seem to have been most associated with the Slavic expansion.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Achievements:
    500 Experience Points3 months registered
    Krum's Avatar
    Join Date
    29-06-19
    Location
    Varna
    Posts
    48
    Points
    671
    Level
    6
    Points: 671, Level: 6
    Level completed: 61%, Points required for next Level: 79
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Ethnic group
    Bulgarian
    Country: Bulgaria



    според милостивото божие обещание, в 9-ти век славяните придобили писание, създавайки първата славянска азбука (глаголица) на двамата български братя кирил и методий. една от първите задачи, с които се занимават след писането на сценария, е да преведат библията на славянски. преводът започва около 864 г. в константинопол. скоро след това братята бяха изпратени на мисия в моравия и панония, където продължиха да превеждат. в продължение на три години, между 864 и 867 г., те успяват да преведат четирите евангелия, деянията на апостолите и псалмите. през 869 г. двамата братя отиват в рим, за да защитават правото на славяните да имат собствено писане. там кирил внезапно починал и методий се върнал в моравия, където с помощта на няколко от своите ученици той продължил да превежда речта.
    съвсем скоро обаче работата е била прекъсната от германските католически епископи, които завиждат на проспериращата работа на славянското просветление. ученици с извинения. предполага се, че те ще бъдат изпратени в райхнауерския манастир в южна германия, където са затворени за две години и половина. през 874 г. папа йоан viii решава да освободи методий от затвора, но това не е знак за подкрепа на неговия случай. с специално писмо папата му забранява да проповядва в славянски. без страх от забраните и преследването на папата от германските епископи, методий продължава работата си в стадото си и вероятно около 885 г., преди смъртта си, завършва превода на библията. в допълнение, подготвя повече от 200 студенти, готови да продължат работата на бога, много от които са българи. възраженията срещу славянското просвещение бяха възобновени с нова сила след смъртта на методий през 885 г. папа стефан v изпрати писмо до моравския княз светловск, в което пише: „тайнствата и свещената литургия, които методий си позволил да извърши на славянски език, независимо от клетвата, която е дал над мощите на благословения петър, че няма да направи това, като пренебрегне престъплението на заклената клетва, ние ни заповядваме да не го прави по никакъв начин, с божията и нашата апостолска власт. под страх от анатема забранявам. ”това писмо бележи началото на тежкото преследване на учениците на солунските братя. те са хвърлени в затвора, бити и продавани в робство, а много от тях умират. присъдата на папа стефан v срещу творчеството на кирил и методий е потвърдена от многобройни последователи - джон x, йоан xiii, венедиг, александър ii и григорий vii. вследствие на това славянското писмо било унищожено в земите на западните славяни под властта на папството. през 886 г. петима от учениците на кирил и методий - климент, наум, ангеларий, сава и горазд - са изгонени от моравия и се завръщат в родната си българия. хан борис се интересува повече от първата славянска азбука, създадена от кирил и методий. българия искаше да приложи славянската азбука, както и средство за спиране на културното влияние на византийската империя. през 864. българия официално приема християнството най-старият превод на част от библията на старобългарски е този на братята кирил и методий от 9-ти век в солунския диалект. преславската школа за литература е първата литературна школа в българия, основана от княз борис i в 885 или 886 в столицата плиска. там е създадена кирилицата. след 893 г. симеон преместил седалището на училището в новата българска столица преслав. училището е и център за превод, особено византийски автори, както и създаването на поезия, живопис и рисувана керамика. в района на преслав са открити най-ранните кирилски надписи. намерени са в самия средновековен град и в близкия патлейнски манастир, както в днешна шуменска област; в крепча, която е в днешна област търговище; и в равна, днешна варненска област. преславската книжовна школа е най-важният литературен и културен център на българската империя и на всички славяни. в училището работят редица изтъкнати български писатели и учени, в това число наум на преслав до 893 г .; константин преславски; йоан екзарх (също прехвърлен на йоан екзарх); и черноризец храбър, наред с другото охридското книжовно училище е едно от двата най-големи културни центъра на първото българско царство, заедно с преславската литературна школа (плиска). училището е създадено в охрид (сега в северна македония) през 886 г. от свети климент охридски по заповед на борис i на българия едновременно или малко след създаването на преславската литературна школа. след климент е ръкоположен в епископ на дрембица, позицията на ръководител на училището е заета от наум от преслав. охридската литературна школа използва глаголицата от създаването си до 12-ти век и кирилицата от края на 9-ти век. до обединението на влахия и молдова в средата на 19-ти век, кирилицата е написана в земите на днешна румъния, а богослужението се извършва на църковнославянски език. и досега в старите църкви в румъния иконите са изписани на кирилица (такъв надпис е и на каменна колона на хълма на патриаршията в букурещ), а църковният речник е пълен с църковни думи като "сподание" - изповед, "покаяние" - покаяние и други. позицията на ръководител на училището е заета от наум от преслав. охридската литературна школа използва глаголицата от създаването си до 12-ти век и кирилицата от края на 9-ти век. до обединението на влахия и молдова в средата на 19-ти век, кирилицата е написана в земите на днешна румъния, а богослужението се извършва на църковнославянски език. и досега в старите църкви в румъния иконите са изписани на кирилица (такъв надпис е и на каменна колона на хълма на патриаршията в букурещ), а църковният речник е пълен с църковни думи като "сподание" - изповед, "покаяние" - покаяние и други. охридската литературна школа използва глаголицата от създаването си до 12-ти век и кирилицата от края на 9-ти век. до обединението на влахия и молдова в средата на 19-ти век, кирилицата е написана в земите на днешна румъния, а богослужението се извършва на църковнославянски език. и досега в старите църкви в румъния иконите са изписани на кирилица (такъв надпис е и на каменна колона на хълма на патриаршията в букурещ), а църковният речник е пълен с църковни думи като "сподание" - изповед, "покаяние" - покаяние и други. охридската литературна школа използва глаголицата от създаването си до 12-ти век и кирилицата от края на 9-ти век. до обединението на влахия и молдова в средата на 19-ти век, кирилицата е написана в земите на днешна румъния, а богослужението се извършва на църковнославянски език. и досега в старите църкви в румъния иконите са изписани на кирилица (такъв надпис е и на каменна колона на хълма на патриаршията в букурещ), а църковният речник е пълен с църковни думи като "сподание" - изповед, "покаяние" - покаяние и други. до обединението на влахия и молдова в средата на 19-ти век, кирилицата е написана в земите на днешна румъния, а богослужението се извършва на църковнославянски език. и досега в старите църкви в румъния иконите са изписани на кирилица (такъв надпис е и на каменна колона на хълма на патриаршията в букурещ), а църковният речник е пълен с църковни думи като "сподание" - изповед, "покаяние" - покаяние и други. до обединението на влахия и молдова в средата на 19-ти век, кирилицата е написана в земите на днешна румъния, а богослужението се извършва на църковнославянски език. и досега в старите църкви в румъния иконите са изписани на кирилица (такъв надпис е и на каменна колона на хълма на патриаршията в букурещ), а църковният речник е пълен с църковни думи като "сподание" - изповед, "покаяние" - покаяние и други.
    едва през xviii век започва бавният обмен на славянския език с румънския език. румънският език е романтичен. започвайки от западните земи на немското население, латинската азбука постепенно се налага, особено след пенсионирането на фанариотите през 1815 г. това се случва в дунавските княжества, но бавно, защото църквата се бои от влиянието на католицизма. австрийското влияние прониква и прилага чрез трансилвания чрез въведената гражданска азбука, която цели постепенно да измести и замени кирилицата.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    500 Experience Points3 months registered
    Krum's Avatar
    Join Date
    29-06-19
    Location
    Varna
    Posts
    48
    Points
    671
    Level
    6
    Points: 671, Level: 6
    Level completed: 61%, Points required for next Level: 79
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Ethnic group
    Bulgarian
    Country: Bulgaria



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    According to the merciful promise of God, in the 9th century the Slavs acquired scripture, creating the first Slavic alphabet (Glagolitic) of the two Bulgarian brothers Cyril and Methodius. One of the first tasks they deal with after writing the script is to translate the Bible into Slavic. The translation began around 864 in Constantinople. Shortly thereafter, the brothers were sent to a mission in Moravia and Pannonia where they continued to translate. For three years, between 864 and 867, they managed to translate the four Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles and the Psalms. In 869 the two brothers went to Rome to defend the right of the Slavs to have their own writing. There Cyril suddenly died, and Metodius returned to Moravia, where, with the help of several of his students, he continued to translate the speech.
    Quite soon, however, the work was interrupted by German Catholic bishops who were envious of the prosperous work of the Slavic enlightenment In 870 the German spiritual leaders convened an episcopal meeting in the presence of the German Emperor Ludwig German and condemned Metodi and five of his disciples with excuses. They are supposed to be sent to the Reichnauer Monastery in southern Germany, where they are closed for two and a half years. In 874, Pope John VIII decided to release Methodius from prison, but that is no sign of support for his case. With a special letter, the Pope forbids him to preach in Slavic. Without fear of the pope's prohibitions and persecution by the German bishops, Metodius continued his work in his flock, and probably around 885, before his death, completed the translation of the Bible. In addition, he prepares more than 200 students ready to continue the work of God, many of whom are Bulgarians. The objections to the work of the Slavic Enlightenment were resumed with a new force after the death of Metodius in 885. Papa Stefan V sent a letter to the moravian prince Svetlovsk, which reads: "The sacraments and holy Liturgy which Metodius allowed himself to perform in Slavic language in spite of the oath he has given over the blessed Peter's relics, that he will not do this by disregarding the misdeed of the sworn oath, we are commanding no one to do so in any way, with God's and our apostolic authority, under the fear of anathema, I forbid is. " This letter marks the beginning of the severe persecution of the students of the Thessalonian brothers. They are thrown into prison, beaten and sold in slavery, and many of them die. The verdict of Pope Stephen V against the work of Cyril and Methodius was confirmed by many subsequent paps - John X, John XIII, Venedig, Alexander II and Gregory VII. As a consequence, the Slavic letter was wiped out in the lands of Western Slavs under the authority of the Papacy. In 886, five of the disciples of Cyril and Methodius - Clement, Naum, Angelarius, Sava, and Gorazd - were expelled from Moravia and returned to their native Bulgaria. Khan Boris was more interested in the first Slavonic alphabet Cyril and Methodius had created. Bulgaria wanted to implement the Slavonic alphabet as well as a means to stop the cultural influence of the Byzantine Empire. In 864. Bulgaria officially accepts Christianity The oldest translation of part of the Bible into the Old Bulgarian language is that of the Cyril and Methodius brothers of the 9th Century of Thessaloniki dialect.Preslav School of Literature is the first literary school in Bulgaria founded by Prince Boris I in 885 or 886 in the capital of Pliska. The Cyrillic alphabet was created there. After 893 Simeon I moved the headquarters of the school to the new Bulgarian capital Preslav. The school is also a center of translation, especially Byzantine authors, as well as the creation of poetry, painting and painted ceramics. The earliest datable Cyrillic inscriptions have been found in the area of Preslav. They have been found in the medieval city itself, and at nearby Patleina Monastery, both in present-day Shumen Province; in Krepcha, which is in present-day Targovishte Province; and in Ravna, present-day Varna Province. The Preslav Literary School was the most important literary and cultural centre of the Bulgarian Empire and of all Slavs. A number of prominent Bulgarian writers and scholars worked at the school, including Naum of Preslav until 893; Constantine of Preslav; Joan Ekzarh (also transcr. John the Exarch); and Chernorizets Hrabar, among others The Ohrid Literary School was one of the two major cultural centres of the First Bulgarian Empire, along with the Preslav Literary School (Pliska Literary School).The school was established in Ohrid (in what is now North Macedonia) in 886 by Saint Clement of Ohrid on the order of Boris I of Bulgaria simultaneously or shortly after the establishment of the Preslav Literary School. After Clement was ordained bishop of Drembica, (Velika (bishopric) in 893, the position of head of the school was assumed by Naum of Preslav. The Ohrid Literary School used

  20. #20
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Zeus10's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-07-12
    Posts
    229
    Points
    4,995
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,995, Level: 20
    Level completed: 87%, Points required for next Level: 55
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: Canada



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    @Srbadija:
    I was curious.
    Because from what I understand Sclaveni means people that are speaking same language.
    Which supports the idea that at a time, South Slavs, West Slavs and East Slavs spoke all the same language.
    Some people say that Slavic appeared branching from a common Slavic-BaltoSlavic language.
    But I think Slavic language actually appeared from the migration South of some Balto-Slavic speakers, that assimilated local Gothic tribes, Thracian and Dacian tribes and Iranic tribes (like Sarmatians) and what other people where in the area.
    Balto-Slavic people are renown as very tough fighters, only the Teutonic knights with very superior equipment and battle techniques could defeat the Old Prussians for example.
    Is very possible that some BaltoSlavic people were sometimes going Viking together with their Northern neighbors from South Sweden or Denmark or Norway.
    There is plenty of R1A on the shores of Ireland and Scotland where Vikings have raided and also, so called "Eastern European admixture",not so plenty, but some.
    Sclaveni, means oppressed people or slaves. The theory, that the origin of the word Slavs derives from the word "letter" is due to the fact, that even the word "letter"(in Slavic) dedicates its own meaning to the word: press, oppress, because a letter is acquired through the process of pressing.
    Now, the oldest evidence of spoken( I must say written) Slavic are of course the writings of Old Church Slavonic. All forms and dialects spoken by Slavic people today originate by Old Church Slavonic. There is NO ethnic ties on the first place for the Slavic people, Slavic is a culture linked by language, and the oldest evidence of written Slavic are deeds of the clergy belonging to the Old Slavonic Church. No secular, ethnic or vernacular involved.
    Period.

  21. #21
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,404
    Points
    39,556
    Level
    61
    Points: 39,556, Level: 61
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 794
    Overall activity: 26.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    WIKIPEDIA SAYS:
    The Slavic autonym *Slověninъ is usually considered a derivation from slovo "word", originally denoting "people who speak (the same language)", i. e. people who understand each other, in contrast to the Slavic word denoting "foreign people", namely němci, meaning "mumbling, murmuring people" (from Slavic *němъ "mumbling, mute"). The latter word may be the derivation of words to denote "Germans" or "Germanic peoples" in many later Slavic languages: e. g., Czech Němec, Slovak Nemec, Slovene Nemec, Belarusian, Russian and Bulgarian Немец, Serbo-Croatian Немац and Nijemac, Polish Niemiec, Ukrainian Німець, etc., but another theory states that rather these words are derived from the name of the Nemetes tribe, which is derived from the Celtic root nemeto-.

    The word slovo ("word") and the related slava ("glory, fame") and slukh ("hearing") originate from the Proto-Indo-European root *ḱlew- ("be spoken of, glory"), cognate with Ancient Greek κλέος (kléos "fame"), whence comes the name Pericles, Latin clueo ("be called"), and English loud.

    Alternative proposals for the etymology of *Slověninъ propounded by some scholars have much less support. B. Philip Lozinski argues that the word *slava once had the meaning of "worshipper", in this context "practicer of a common Slavic religion", and from that evolved into an ethnonym. S. B. Bernstein speculated that it derives from a reconstructed Proto-Indo-European *(s)lawos, cognate to Ancient Greek λαός (laós) "population, people", which itself has no commonly accepted etymology. Meanwhile, others theorize that Slavyane (Russian: Славяне) is of toponymic origin, from a place named Slovo or a river named Slova; this, according to some, is implied by the suffix -enin. The Old East Slavic Slavuta for the Dnieper River was argued by Henrich Bartek (1907–1986) to be derived from slova and also the origin of Slověne.[20]

    The English term slave derives from the ethnonym Slav. In medieval wars many Slavs were captured and enslaved, which led to the word slav becoming synonym to "enslaved person"In plus, the English word Slav derives from the Middle English word sclave, which was borrowed from Medieval Latin sclavus or slavus, itself a borrowing and Byzantine Greek σκλάβος sklábos "slave," which was in turn apparently derived from a misunderstanding of the Slavic autonym (denoting a speaker of their own languages). The Byzantine term Sklavinoi was loaned into Arabic as Saqaliba (صقالبة; sing. Saqlabi, صقلبي) by medieval Arab historiographers. However, the origin of this word is disputed.

    Etymology is a perilous sport as we know. Look above. But I would rather put a prudent penny on the "glory" and "language" explanations. The meaning 'slave' seems being come after, as a result and not as a cause.
    Affirming Slav current ethnicity is based ONLY on a religious language - of a very limited area of South-East Europe - which would have prospered and imposed itself over numerous pops seems very weird to me. The phonetic tendancies which acted to differentiate it from other close IE languages seems being stronger among West- and East-Slavic languages rather than among South-Slavic ones. And the destructions which seem linked to colonization moves concerned rather the southern parts of their "domaine" indicating to me an origin from elsewhere (they were at some stage compared to sedentist Scythians, which could indicate a more northeastern position compared to Southern Balkans).
    I 'm sure of nothing but I see rather their etnogenesis as something involving Proto-Balto-Slavic and maybe kind of Thracian, involving N-E Y-R1a subclades and more southern Y-I2a1b subclades.
    &: the explanation by your pressing (printing) concept appears a bit farfetched to me (no offense).

  22. #22
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,404
    Points
    39,556
    Level
    61
    Points: 39,556, Level: 61
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 794
    Overall activity: 26.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    As I see the Slavic languages interest a lot of people I mention here a paper about European language continuity so dear to Alinei, where Slavic holds a glorious place in the IE genesis, paper based too on a very surprising view (to me) about the human Y-haplo's tree and wanderings.
    I avow I was stroken at first, obliged to water my face and then to take a solid glassful of whisky. (old people become fragile).
    Based on Russian and Chinese works apparently.

    International Journal of Social Science Studies Vol. 6, No. 1; January 2018 ISSN 2324-8033 E-ISSN 2324-8041 Published by Redfame Publishing URL: http://ijsss.redfame.com 18

    Continuity of European Languages from the Point of View of DNA Genealogy

    Anton Perdih

    1

    1

    Faculty of Chemistry and Chemical Technology, University of Ljubljana, Slovenia (retired) Correspondence: Anton Perdih, Faculty of Chemistry and Chemical Technology, University of Ljubljana, Slovenia. Received: October 30, 2017 Accepted: November 20, 2017 Available online: November 23, 2017 doi:10.11114/ijsss.v6i1.2809 URL: https://doi.org/10.11114/ijsss.v6i1.2809



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •