The Genetics of the Finns

[Jovialis]

Here's a new episode from the Insight. I'm just listening to it now:

https://insitome.libsyn.com/the-genetics-of-the-finns

[Angela]

Here's a new episode from the Insight. I'm just listening to it now:

https://insitome.libsyn.com/the-genetics-of-the-finns

Interesting stuff.

[Ukko]

Interesting stuff.

Several myths repeated again as facts, they dont have a clue about linguistics or ancient history and that makes them basically clueless

[markod]

Several myths repeated again as facts, they dont have a clue about linguistics or ancient history and that makes them basically clueless

Did you see the Iron Age Finnland sample in the new Siberia paper? She's from near Vaasa dated to ~500 A.D. . Low Siberian admixture (seems to cluster with Norwegians).

What's your opinon regarding the linguistic affiliation of this sample?

[Ukko]

Did you see the Iron Age Finnland sample in the new Siberia paper? She's from near Vaasa dated to ~500 A.D. . Low Siberian admixture (seems to cluster with Norwegians).

What's your opinon regarding the linguistic affiliation of this sample?

Could be Germanic, but the recent papers also show low siberia in the Estonian iron age samples.

Baltic Finns got the Siberian admixture after moving to Finland from Estonia-Livonia and mixing with Sami who themselves mixed with the Fennoscandian paleopopulation most likely originating from Siberia.

[Kristiina]

Oh my god, so much misinformation: Finns are originally not white. Western Uralic is spoken in Kola Peninsula, Proto-Uralic is from Taimyr. Finnish speaking Finns (= men) were hunter-gatherers still in the early Middle Ages when they arrived in Finland and made a living by hunting and managed to subjugate the IEs. Regarding Finns, the Uralic DNA is again drained from everything else but the small Siberian fraction and the non-Siberian part is robbed by IEs. Uralic expansion was of course not demic but was based on a conquest by a handful of reindeer riding Nganasans.

[Angela]

Oh my god, so much misinformation: Finns are originally not white. Western Uralic is spoken in Kola Peninsula, Proto-Uralic is from Taimyr. Finnish speaking Finns (= men) were hunter-gatherers still in the early Middle Ages when they arrived in Finland and made a living by hunting and managed to subjugate the IEs. Regarding Finns, the Uralic DNA is again drained from everything else but the small Siberian fraction and the non-Siberian part is robbed by IEs. Uralic expansion was of course not demic but was based on a conquest by a handful of reindeer riding Nganasans.

If you're responding to the Insight podcast, have you informed them they're posting incorrect information?

When there's no pushback, things just get accepted.

[Ukko]

If you're responding to the Insight podcast, have you informed them they're posting incorrect information?

When there's no pushback, things just get accepted.

Finns have been pushing back in these anthroforums, blogs and by sending emails to people doing the studies, the feedback has mainly been poorly received.
The reason is most likely the contradictions and questions raised to the accepted consensus beliefs inside the Indo-European and Germanic studies.

I have posted also here much of the relevant information in the form on of links to studies and papers about the Uralic/Finnic enthnogenesis and expansion.



We do get a lot of enjoyment from the fact that the truth is out there and it will come out eventually.

[markod]

Oh my god, so much misinformation: Finns are originally not white. Western Uralic is spoken in Kola Peninsula, Proto-Uralic is from Taimyr. Finnish speaking Finns (= men) were hunter-gatherers still in the early Middle Ages when they arrived in Finland and made a living by hunting and managed to subjugate the IEs. Regarding Finns, the Uralic DNA is again drained from everything else but the small Siberian fraction and the non-Siberian part is robbed by IEs. Uralic expansion was of course not demic but was based on a conquest by a handful of reindeer riding Nganasans.

The reindeer horde

[bicicleur]

why do they claim Finland was populated only recently?
that doesn't seem correct to me
what does the arcehological record say?
why don't they mention the warm climate 4.7-2.8 ka and the sudden climate drop ca 650 B.C. ?

[markod]

Could be Germanic, but the recent papers also show low siberia in the Estonian iron age samples.

Baltic Finns got the Siberian admixture after moving to Finland from Estonia-Livonia and mixing with Sami who themselves mixed with the Fennoscandian paleopopulation most likely originating from Siberia.

Could the Siberians in Fennoscandia have spoken Laplandic/Lakelandic rather than Uralic?

In that scenario coast-dwelling Finnic and Sami speakers would have imposed their language on the non-Uralic populations of inner Fennoscandia in the Roman period perhaps.

[bicicleur]

judging from Y-DNA (M2126), these 3.5 ka in Murmansk seem to have been Uralic
some of the mtDNA the is Siberian

Russia Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-3, 57-1] F 3473+/-87 calBP 2 samples 16093C, 16129A, 16311C, 16356C U4a1
Russia Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-1, 72-11] 3500 BP 2 samples 16192T, 16256T, 16270T U5a
Russia Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 72-9, 72-10, 72-14, 78-8] F 3473+/-87 calBP 4 samples 16192T, 16256T, 16270T, 16399G U5a1, U5a1d
Russia Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 72-4] F 3473+/-87 calBP 16093C, 16126C, 16294T T*, T2d1b1
Russia Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-2, 49-4, 57-3, 72-2, 72-7, 72-12] M 3473+/-87 calBP N1c1a1a (2016) N1a1a1a1 (2018) P298 = M2126 7,4 ka > 6,4 ka 6 samples 16223T, 16298C, 16327C C*, C4b
Russia Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 72-5, 72-6] 3500 BP 2 samples 16148T, 16223T, 16288C, 16298C, 16311C, 16327C C5
Russia Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-6, 72-13, 72-15] F 3473+/-87 calBP 3 samples 16223T, 16362C D*, D4e4
Russia Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-5, 72-3] 3473+/-87 calBP 2 samples 16129A, 16185T, 16223T, 16224C, 16260T, 16298C Z1a
Russia Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 72-1] M 3473+/-87 calBP N1c1a1a (2016) N1a1a1a1 (2018) P298 = M2126 7,4 ka > 6,4 ka Z1a, Z1a1a

could they have expanded south when climate deterioriated?

[Kristiina]

A crucible and some metal objects were found in Bolshoy, therefore they knew how to make metal tools. Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov people may have spoken an early Eastern Uralic language, i.e. they could be related to the ancestors of Khanties and Mansis and the Garino Bor culture. The yDNA of Bolshoy with all probability became extinct.
The Finnish language came definitely from the south as Finns were farmers who turned all arable land into fields.

[Kristiina]

The Finnish colonization of Finland was surely demic as there are written documents from the Middle Ages onwards. Therefore, Finns did not impose their language on anybody, but they obviously assimilated a significant amount of lakeland (Saami) people into their farming economy which was so efficient as to cause a significant increase of population.

[Ukko]

why do they claim Finland was populated only recently?
that doesn't seem correct to me
what does the arcehological record say?
why don't they mention the warm climate 4.7-2.8 ka and the sudden climate drop ca 650 B.C. ?

Finland was populated just after the Ice Age.

[ThirdTerm]

In the podcast, Razib Khan proposes that the indigenous European hunter-gatherer community in Finland was conquered by Siberian hunter-gatherers around 4,000 years ago, who admixed with the local European hunter-gatherer population and imposed their their Uralic culture and language, based on a recent paper (Lamnids et al. 2018). The spread of Uralic language speakers from the east, who carried haplogroup N1c, contributed to the male gene pool of Finnish and Baltic populations and left linguistic descendants in the Finno-Ugric languages. N1c1a1a (N-L392) was detected in individuals BOO002 and BOO004 from Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov, dated 3473±87 calBP.

In this study we present new genome-wide data from 11 individuals from Finland and the Russian Kola Peninsula who lived between 3,500 to 200 years ago. In addition, we present a new high-coverage genome from a modern Saami individual for whom low coverage data was published previously 1. Our results suggest that a new genetic component with strong Siberian affinity first arrived in Europe around 4,000 years ago, as observed in our oldest analysed individuals from northern Russia, and that the gene pool of modern north-eastern Europeans in general, and speakers of Uralic languages in particular, is the result of multiple admixture events between Eastern and Western sources since that first appearance. Additionally, we gain further insights into the genetic history of the Saami in Finland, by showing that during the Iron Age, close genetic relatives of modern Saami lived in an area much further south than their current geographic range.

The Siberian ancestry seen in EHG probably corresponds to a previously reported affinity towards Ancient North Eurasians (ANE) 2,24, which also comprises part of the ancestry of Nganasans. Interestingly, results from uniparentally-inherited markers (mtDNA and Y chromosome) as well as certain phenotypic SNPs also show Siberian signals in Bolshoy: mtDNA haplogroups Z1, C4 and D4, common in modern Siberia 18,25,26 , in individuals BOO002, BOO004 and BOO006, respectively (confirming previous findings 18), as well as Y-chromosomal haplotype N1c1a1a (N-L392) in individuals BOO002 and BOO004. Haplogroup N1c, to which this haplotype belongs, is the major Y chromosomal lineage in modern North-East Europe and European Russia, especially in Uralic speakers, for example comprising as much as 54% of Eastern Finnish male lineages today 27.

Notably, this is the earliest known occurrence of Y-haplogroup N1c in Fennoscandia. Additionally, within the Bolshoy population we observe the derived allele of rs3827760 in the EDAR gene, which is found in near-fixation in East Asian and Native American populations but is extremely rare elsewhere 28, and has been linked to phenotypes related to tooth shape 29 and hair morphology 30,31 (Supplementary Table 7). Scandinavian hunter-gatherers from Motala in Sweden have also been found to carry haplotypes associated with this allele 4. Finally, we see high frequencies of haplotypes associated with diets rich in high poly-unsaturated fatty acids, on the FADS genes 4,32,33. The FADS haplotype observed here has previously been linked with Greenlanders 32, and is found in lower frequencies within Europe 33.

[Kristiina]

Razib Khan's theory is with all probability rubbish.
The Finnish language spread with farming and that is a historic fact. The genetic evidence indicates that the land was mostly Saami-speaking to a late date.
Serteya N1c from Zhizhitskaya Neolithic (Smolensk) is older than Bolshoy, i.e.dated to c. 2500 BC. You could just as well consider it the origin of Finnish haplotypes.

[bicicleur]

so there were multiple waves of Uralic speakers, but only the last wave spoke Finnish

the recent paper (Lamnids et al. 2018) exposes a clear correlation between Y-DNA N-L708 and Uralic
the Yakuts, N-M1993 must have made a language shift somewhere along the way

[Kristiina]

In the podcast, Razib Khan proposes that the indigenous European hunter-gatherer community in Finland was conquered by Siberian hunter-gatherers around 4,000 years ago, who admixed with the local European hunter-gatherer population and imposed their their Uralic culture and language, based on a recent paper (Lamnids et al. 2018).

I do not understand where that 4000 years ago comes from, but Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov population in Kola Peninsula (1500 BC) cannot be taken as a sign of the entry of Uralic speaking N1c hunter-gatherers to Finland because,
- Bolshoy people knew how to make metal tools
- Bolshoy people were aware of the creamation techniques as a cremation burial was found in Bolshoy
- in the QpAdm, Bolshoy people are c. 22% Yamnaya
- one of the mtDNA haplotypes is rare T2d1b1 which is today found in Khanties, Komis, Persians and Haryana Brahmins.
- there is N1c in Smolensk area already c. 2500 BC

[Ukko]

Could the Siberians in Fennoscandia have spoken Laplandic/Lakelandic rather than Uralic?

In that scenario coast-dwelling Finnic and Sami speakers would have imposed their language on the non-Uralic populations of inner Fennoscandia in the Roman period perhaps.

Yes, they spoke some paleolanguages that we still have traces of in Sami, Finnish and place names, dont remember if Norse borrowed something also.

[mihaitzateo]

There is a writing from a Roman Empire historian, from around 100 AD or so, mentioning in the North "the most gentle Finns".

[Kristiina]

Some true information:

Human mitochondrial DNA lineages in Iron-Age Fennoscandia suggest incipient admixture and eastern introduction of farming-related maternal ancestry

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-51045-8

As a support for the late introduction of farming populations in to Finland we do not see strong affinities of western IAM ( Iron-Age and medieval sites ) to for example the CWC maternal gene pools from Estonia and Lithuania6,12,13,14, suggesting either that the mtDNA gene flow between these two regions has been low or that shared mtDNA variation had dissolved before the Iron-Age in Finland. Alternatively, the CWC expansion may have been largely male-driven as suggested by51. However, we observe a strong Neolithic signal in the Iron-Age mtDNA pool in Eastern Finland, thus rather suggesting a southeastern/eastern arrival route of an agro-pastoralist population into the country. Interestingly, their maternal genetic legacy also corresponded to the contemporary modern Finland, especially in SW. We therefore propose that either there has been east-to-west directed gene flow during the Middle Ages, after the introduction of agricultural haplogroups into the east, or that the late change in SW maternal gene pool may reflect recent immigration from more western/southern sources, such as the migration from Sweden during the Swedish reign in Finland (from 1200s–1809). Iron-Age has evidenced high mobility around the Baltic Sea, as evidenced by the genetic and isotope analyses of human remains from 10th to 12th century in Sigtuna, eastern Sweden.

The ancient mitochondrial genomes analyzed here show a notable pattern opposite to the modern variation: mtDNA types usually associated with the hunter-gatherer communities were significantly more common in the ancient western cluster (Levänluhta, Luistari and Hollola) than in the east (Hiitola, Tuukkala), with the haplogroup U frequency as high as 58.3%. In contrast, the farming-related lineages were observed in particular in the ancient eastern cluster. This pattern of division between the ancient sites, and the contradictions with their respective local modern population frequencies emerged also in formal testing of pairwise ΦST values: the western cluster was closer to the modern NE subpopulation than to the modern SW subpopulation whereas the eastern cluster showed closer affinity with the modern mtDNA variation in southwestern Finland.

[Turbino]

Razib has always been posting his takes on Finnish ancestry, he has even admitted to being a bit obsessed with Finns in the podcast. Every time its a pretty bad theory. He doesnt seem to take to criticism in the comments either.

I dont want to speculate, but takes on Uralics by R1a carriers seem to often be pretty biased, probably because the same areas are involved.