how the Berber HG survived while EEF got extinct

bicicleur 2

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The-Early-Neolithic-of-Morocco-and-the-Atlantic-facade-Centres-of-Neolithisation-are.png


https://www.researchgate.net/public...y_and_the_Missing_Middle_Neolithic_of_Morocco

Climate Induced Mobility and the Missing Middle Neolithic of Morocco.

This is my take :

Cardial Ware farmers settled on the Moroccon coasts just before they settled in Southern Iberia.
The Capsian HG remained semi-nomadic and complemented a HG lifestyle with herding and some occasional agriculture.
It proved a better strategy than the Cardial Ware farming.
After 6 ka climate started to deteriorate, causing the 'Green Sahara' to end by about 5,5 ka.
The Cardial Ware farmers dissapeared, but the Berber tribes survived.

The Fregel 2017 paper showed that the Cardial Ware Folks were EEF, while the Capsian HG were E-L19 → M81 proto-Berber.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/02/20/191569

Morocco Ifri n'Amur or Moussa IAM.3 F 5325-5210 Cal BC M1b1
Morocco Ifri n'Amur or Moussa IAM.4 M 5215-5005 Cal BC E-L19 → M81 U6a1b
Morocco Ifri n'Amur or Moussa IAM.5 M 5199-5176 5066-4942 Cal BC E-L19 → M81 U6a1b
Morocco Ifri n'Amur or Moussa IAM.6 F 5290-5265 5230-5195 5180-5060 Cal BC U607b2
Morocco Ifri n'Amur or Moussa IAM.7 M 5000-4840 Cal BC U60a3

Morocco Kelif el Boroud KEB.1 F 3780-3650 Cal BC X2b
Morocco Kelif el Boroud KEB.3 - 3780-3650 Cal BC K1a1b1
Morocco Kelif el Boroud KEB.5 F 3780-3650 Cal BC K1a1b1
Morocco Kelif el Boroud KEB.6 M 3780-3650 Cal BC T-M184 T1a-M70xT1a1a-L208 K1a4a1
Morocco Kelif el Boroud KEB.7 M 3780-3650 Cal BC T2b3
Morocco Kelif el Boroud KEB.8 F 3780-3650 Cal BC X2b

Spain El Toro TOR.1 - 5280-4780 Cal BC T2c1d
Spain El Toro TOR.5 M 5040-4850 Cal BC G-M201 G2a2ab2a3a-Z39334 = Z39310, 11,3->1,65 ka (P303 derived) J2b1a
Spain El Toro TOR.6 F 5280-4780 Cal BC T2b3
Spain El Toro TOR.7 F 5280-4780 Cal BC T2b3
Spain El Toro TOR.8 F 5280-4780 Cal BC K1a1
Spain El Toro TOR.11 F 5280-4780 Cal BC K1a2a
Spain El Toro TOR.12 M 5280-4780 Cal BC J2b1a

EEF survived it Europe, which didn't get affected that much by unstable climate, yet there was a later resurgence of WHG.
Where the EEF more vulnerable to changes in climate and nature than HG?
Where they to much dependant on monoculture, while HG who adopted agriculture maintained their hunting and fishing skills?
 
The-Early-Neolithic-of-Morocco-and-the-Atlantic-facade-Centres-of-Neolithisation-are.png


https://www.researchgate.net/public...y_and_the_Missing_Middle_Neolithic_of_Morocco

Climate Induced Mobility and the Missing Middle Neolithic of Morocco.

This is my take :

Cardial Ware farmers settled on the Moroccon coasts just before they settled in Southern Iberia.
The Capsian HG remained semi-nomadic and complemented a HG lifestyle with herding and some occasional agriculture.
It proved a better strategy than the Cardial Ware farming.
After 6 ka climate started to deteriorate, causing the 'Green Sahara' to end by about 5,5 ka.
The Cardial Ware farmers dissapeared, but the Berber tribes survived.

The Fregel 2017 paper showed that the Cardial Ware Folks were EEF, while the Capsian HG were E-L19 → M81 proto-Berber.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/02/20/191569

Morocco Ifri n'Amur or Moussa IAM.3 F 5325-5210 Cal BC M1b1
Morocco Ifri n'Amur or Moussa IAM.4 M 5215-5005 Cal BC E-L19 → M81 U6a1b
Morocco Ifri n'Amur or Moussa IAM.5 M 5199-5176 5066-4942 Cal BC E-L19 → M81 U6a1b
Morocco Ifri n'Amur or Moussa IAM.6 F 5290-5265 5230-5195 5180-5060 Cal BC U607b2
Morocco Ifri n'Amur or Moussa IAM.7 M 5000-4840 Cal BC U60a3

Morocco Kelif el Boroud KEB.1 F 3780-3650 Cal BC X2b
Morocco Kelif el Boroud KEB.3 - 3780-3650 Cal BC K1a1b1
Morocco Kelif el Boroud KEB.5 F 3780-3650 Cal BC K1a1b1
Morocco Kelif el Boroud KEB.6 M 3780-3650 Cal BC T-M184 T1a-M70xT1a1a-L208 K1a4a1
Morocco Kelif el Boroud KEB.7 M 3780-3650 Cal BC T2b3
Morocco Kelif el Boroud KEB.8 F 3780-3650 Cal BC X2b

Spain El Toro TOR.1 - 5280-4780 Cal BC T2c1d
Spain El Toro TOR.5 M 5040-4850 Cal BC G-M201 G2a2ab2a3a-Z39334 = Z39310, 11,3->1,65 ka (P303 derived) J2b1a
Spain El Toro TOR.6 F 5280-4780 Cal BC T2b3
Spain El Toro TOR.7 F 5280-4780 Cal BC T2b3
Spain El Toro TOR.8 F 5280-4780 Cal BC K1a1
Spain El Toro TOR.11 F 5280-4780 Cal BC K1a2a
Spain El Toro TOR.12 M 5280-4780 Cal BC J2b1a

EEF survived it Europe, which didn't get affected that much by unstable climate, yet there was a later resurgence of WHG.
Where the EEF more vulnerable to changes in climate and nature than HG?
Where they to much dependant on monoculture, while HG who adopted agriculture maintained their hunting and fishing skills?

I don't see it, Bicicleur.

No "pure" group survived, whatever that even means given that any "pure" group we can name is itself the product of prior mixing. The hunter-gatherers of Morocco no more "survived" than the hunter-gatherers or Europe or the EEF of Europe. Eventually, everyone mixed, to one degree or another.

If you mean that a mixed economic structure is more resilient than one based on one means of subsistence, there I agree.

Well, maybe the Sardinians of the Barbagia are an exception, but most Sardinians are not. Even with them, those Sardinians of the Barbagia are themselves a mix.
 
The-Early-Neolithic-of-Morocco-and-the-Atlantic-facade-Centres-of-Neolithisation-are.png

https://www.researchgate.net/public...y_and_the_Missing_Middle_Neolithic_of_Morocco
Climate Induced Mobility and the Missing Middle Neolithic of Morocco.
This is my take :
Cardial Ware farmers settled on the Moroccon coasts just before they settled in Southern Iberia.
The Capsian HG remained semi-nomadic and complemented a HG lifestyle with herding and some occasional agriculture.
It proved a better strategy than the Cardial Ware farming.
After 6 ka climate started to deteriorate, causing the 'Green Sahara' to end by about 5,5 ka.
The Cardial Ware farmers dissapeared, but the Berber tribes survived.
The Fregel 2017 paper showed that the Cardial Ware Folks were EEF, while the Capsian HG were E-L19 → M81 proto-Berber.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/02/20/191569
Morocco Ifri n'Amur or Moussa IAM.3 F 5325-5210 Cal BC M1b1
Morocco Ifri n'Amur or Moussa IAM.4 M 5215-5005 Cal BC E-L19 → M81 U6a1b
Morocco Ifri n'Amur or Moussa IAM.5 M 5199-5176 5066-4942 Cal BC E-L19 → M81 U6a1b
Morocco Ifri n'Amur or Moussa IAM.6 F 5290-5265 5230-5195 5180-5060 Cal BC U607b2
Morocco Ifri n'Amur or Moussa IAM.7 M 5000-4840 Cal BC U60a3
Morocco Kelif el Boroud KEB.1 F 3780-3650 Cal BC X2b
Morocco Kelif el Boroud KEB.3 - 3780-3650 Cal BC K1a1b1
Morocco Kelif el Boroud KEB.5 F 3780-3650 Cal BC K1a1b1
Morocco Kelif el Boroud KEB.6 M 3780-3650 Cal BC T-M184 T1a-M70xT1a1a-L208 K1a4a1
Morocco Kelif el Boroud KEB.7 M 3780-3650 Cal BC T2b3
Morocco Kelif el Boroud KEB.8 F 3780-3650 Cal BC X2b
Spain El Toro TOR.1 - 5280-4780 Cal BC T2c1d
Spain El Toro TOR.5 M 5040-4850 Cal BC G-M201 G2a2ab2a3a-Z39334 = Z39310, 11,3->1,65 ka (P303 derived) J2b1a
Spain El Toro TOR.6 F 5280-4780 Cal BC T2b3
Spain El Toro TOR.7 F 5280-4780 Cal BC T2b3
Spain El Toro TOR.8 F 5280-4780 Cal BC K1a1
Spain El Toro TOR.11 F 5280-4780 Cal BC K1a2a
Spain El Toro TOR.12 M 5280-4780 Cal BC J2b1a
EEF survived it Europe, which didn't get affected that much by unstable climate, yet there was a later resurgence of WHG.
Where the EEF more vulnerable to changes in climate and nature than HG?
Where they to much dependant on monoculture, while HG who adopted agriculture maintained their hunting and fishing skills?
The Fregel paper stated the markers came via Europe form Anatolia ( especially Galician and northern Spain ) , was there Berbers already in Morocco ?
The founding of Carthage in 800BC and the settlement of Carthagians/phoenicians ( or as the Romans state them, Punic ) occurred circa 700BC even the huge town of Gates ( Cadiz) was later.
Can you clarify on where you are going, in trying to match BB pottery in Morocco with who?
 
The Fregel paper stated the markers came via Europe form Anatolia ( especially Galician and northern Spain ) , was there Berbers already in Morocco ?
The founding of Carthage in 800BC and the settlement of Carthagians/phoenicians ( or as the Romans state them, Punic ) occurred circa 700BC even the huge town of Gates ( Cadiz) was later.
Can you clarify on where you are going, in trying to match BB pottery in Morocco with who?

The so called Berbers moved from Anatolia to the coast of the Red Sea/North Africa after the great flood of Sumer i'll bet you anything Berbers match to pre historic Caucasus people in a genetic sense, if anything.
 
I don't see it, Bicicleur.
No "pure" group survived, whatever that even means given that any "pure" group we can name is itself the product of prior mixing. The hunter-gatherers of Morocco no more "survived" than the hunter-gatherers or Europe or the EEF of Europe. Eventually, everyone mixed, to one degree or another.
If you mean that a mixed economic structure is more resilient than one based on one means of subsistence, there I agree.
Well, maybe the Sardinians of the Barbagia are an exception, but most Sardinians are not. Even with them, those Sardinians of the Barbagia are themselves a mix.

check the PCA in figure 2 of the Fregel paper
modern north african aligns with the IAM samples while southern europe aligns with the TOR and Europe EN samples
the KEB samples are intermediate between IAM and TOR, but modern north african remains to the left of KEB
modern north african is on a cline between IAM and modern middle eastern
 
The Fregel paper stated the markers came via Europe form Anatolia ( especially Galician and northern Spain ) , was there Berbers already in Morocco ?
The founding of Carthage in 800BC and the settlement of Carthagians/phoenicians ( or as the Romans state them, Punic ) occurred circa 700BC even the huge town of Gates ( Cadiz) was later.
Can you clarify on where you are going, in trying to match BB pottery in Morocco with who?

yes, modern north africans are a mixture of berber and arab

and on the PCA modern north african is a mixture of IAM and middle eastern


please note Fregel labels the IAM as 'early neolithic', while archeology labels them as 'epipaleolithic'
I prefer to label them Berber HG
 
I don't know... I think your main hypothesis is spot on (the more diverse and adaptable lifestyle of the pastoralists and hunter-gatherers prevailed over that of the intensive farmers), but I'm not sure the "Berber HG" survived while "EEF got extinct". Didn't that recent North African paper show Late Neolithic North Africans to have a minor but sizeable EEF-like, "Iberian" component? And don't modern Maghrebis also have some EEF? I'd think that the farmers declined due to climatic issues, but they did not get extinct, instead they mixed with the more successful pastoralists who were not exactly the same as the former HGs. Also, IIRC the non-"European-like" prevalent part of the genome of the Neolithic North Africans was related to, but quite different from the genetic makeup of the earlier, Paleolithic Iberomaurusians, lacking much of the Hadza-like Subsaharan component that existed in the latter. Therefore, I find it hard to believe that the Berbers who eventually survived and prevailed were exactly a continuation of the former hunter-gatherers. They seem to have become much more Levantine/Natufian-like and less Subsaharan-like, probably owing to an expansion of either the "intensive hunter-gatherers" of Natufian culture (who were pretty advanced for their time) or of the early pastoralists through North Africa - and then mixing with the local hunter-gatherers, who probably did not speak Berber IMO, as Berber is still more related to Semitic and Egyptian than to other Afro-Asiatic subfamilies, and not that divergent (Proto-Afro-Asiatic itself is estimated to have been spoken at most around 15,000 years ago).
 
I don't know... I think your main hypothesis is spot on (the more diverse and adaptable lifestyle of the pastoralists and hunter-gatherers prevailed over that of the intensive farmers), but I'm not sure the "Berber HG" survived while "EEF got extinct". Didn't that recent North African paper show Late Neolithic North Africans to have a minor but sizeable EEF-like, "Iberian" component? And don't modern Maghrebis also have some EEF? I'd think that the farmers declined due to climatic issues, but they did not get extinct, instead they mixed with the more successful pastoralists who were not exactly the same as the former HGs. Also, IIRC the non-"European-like" prevalent part of the genome of the Neolithic North Africans was related to, but quite different from the genetic makeup of the earlier, Paleolithic Iberomaurusians, lacking much of the Hadza-like Subsaharan component that existed in the latter. Therefore, I find it hard to believe that the Berbers who eventually survived and prevailed were exactly a continuation of the former hunter-gatherers. They seem to have become much more Levantine/Natufian-like and less Subsaharan-like, probably owing to an expansion of either the "intensive hunter-gatherers" of Natufian culture (who were pretty advanced for their time) or of the early pastoralists through North Africa - and then mixing with the local hunter-gatherers, who probably did not speak Berber IMO, as Berber is still more related to Semitic and Egyptian than to other Afro-Asiatic subfamilies, and not that divergent (Proto-Afro-Asiatic itself is estimated to have been spoken at most around 15,000 years ago).

I very much agree.
 
I'm not sure the "Berber HG" survived while "EEF got extinct". Didn't that recent North African paper show Late Neolithic North Africans to have a minor but sizeable EEF-like, "Iberian" component?
If you are talking about KEB (Late Neolitic Moroccans) they were modeled as 80% Anatolian Neolithic 14% IAM/Iberomaurusians.
But they were a transitional population.
And don't modern Maghrebis also have some EEF? I'd think that the farmers declined due to climatic issues, but they did not get extinct, instead they mixed with the more successful pastoralists who were not exactly the same as the former HGs.
Coastal Berbers of northern Morocco, Algeria or Tunisia (such as Riffians, Kabyles etc as we get it) can easily be modeled as 50% of Anatolian Neolithic ancestry from the Cardial Ware settlers. They didn't disapear for sure, they progressively mixed with local Mesolithic North Africans (i.e Iberomaurusians/Capsians).
The berber populations further south generally have an increase of higher IAM/Mesolithic North African affinity. Narurally the further east you go Middle Eastern admixture is more important as closer to Egypt.
Also, IIRC the non-"European-like" prevalent part of the genome of the Neolithic North Africans was related to, but quite different from the genetic makeup of the earlier, Paleolithic Iberomaurusians, lacking much of the Hadza-like Subsaharan component that existed in the latter.
.
Since Coastal Berbers from the Atlas mountain range have higher Anatolian Neolithic ancestry than even Northern Europeans and some Central Europeans, I believe calling Neolithic Anatolian settlers of the Western Mediterranean 'European' is a very Euro-centric view of history and genetic history as usual. Calling them Iberian is also subjective : They were close and related to Iberian Neolithic farmers, could have easily moved down from the Iberian peninsula, but in fact the archeologic paper itself agrees that West Mediterranean Network of the Neolithic linked not only Iberia and North Africa, but Sardinia and Sicily too. And ultimately all came through Anatolia or Greece.
.
If you are talking about IAM (Early Neolithic Morocco) , who were basically the Neolithic transition of Iberomaurusians (i.e Capsians), they were closely related with Iberomaurisians, barely differentiating by lower than 10-20% ancestry from either an Anatolian source or a Levantine source. Their affinity to Anatolia could simply suggest an exchange of genes in between local Mesolithic North Africans and Cardial Ware Neolithic settlers. They had developped a partial pastoralist lifestyle (transhumance). Some archeologic reasearch indicates it was a local phenomenon.

.
Also the population decline happened very late: the paper afforded by the OP talks about what actually starts at the end of the Moroccan Bell Beaker period, so much after the Neoltihic. It is characterized by a high mobility making populations hard to trace. It more or less fit with all Berber populations from the Guanches to the west to the Kabyles to the east having traces of minor steppe ancestry from that period of time . The climate changement is probably what forced closely related Berber populations to move for better lands.
Therefore, I find it hard to believe that the Berbers who eventually survived and prevailed were exactly a continuation of the former hunter-gatherers. They seem to have become much more Levantine/Natufian-like and less Subsaharan-like, probably owing to an expansion of either the "intensive hunter-gatherers" of Natufian culture (who were pretty advanced for their time) or of the early pastoralists through North Africa - and then mixing with the local hunter-gatherers, who probably did not speak Berber IMO, as Berber is still more related to Semitic and Egyptian than to other Afro-Asiatic subfamilies, and not that divergent (Proto-Afro-Asiatic itself is estimated to have been spoken at most around 15,000 years ago).
The Berbers were a (partial) continuation of the local North African hunter-gatherers, both genetically and culturally. Latest Mesolithic North Africans (Capsians) were already a cultural proto-Berber entity. They also had distant affinities with Natufian.
I am not sure what you are talking about but Berbers have barely much any genetic affinity to Natufians and Neolithic Levantines. Natufians were always terrible bad fit for modeling Mozabite Berbers (who lack any recent Levant/Middle Eastern admixture) , because Mozabite Berbers never had any real Natufian ancestry but rather a significant amount of distantly related Mesolithic North African ancestry, sure kind of related to Natufians but not identical.
The transition of Mesolithic to Neolithic Egypt also show archeologically a large amount of continuity too. So while a significant amount of Levantine Neolithic influenced and sprung into the Nile valley, the cultural continuity with previous inhabitants was obvious. In fact the Levantine Neolithic might not have reached much the Maghreb because it was busy, springing into Egypt with a heavy population density.
The Afroasiatic family is not a hoax but a loose classification. Berber, Chadic, Omotic, Egyptian and Semitic are related but loosely, distantly, with very little vocabulary cognates, at best the languages which have diverged very early by the Mesolithic such as Semitic, Berber and Cushitic have preserved closely related grammar and syntaxis. It does not necessarily mean a closer genetic clade. The Afroasiatic is a macro Family of divergent idiom masses and originated from Mesolithic North Africans such as Capsians, Iberomaurusians, Halfans and Mushabians. The Natufians of the Levant were culturally more related to Mesolithic North African populations and the recent Dzudzuana paper showed they had distinct ANA (Ancestral North African) ancestry in common with Iberomaurusian / Taforalt populations. It certainly suggest population exchange the two sides of the Sinai.
 
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If you are talking about KEB (Late Neolitic Moroccans) they were modeled as 80% Anatolian Neolithic 14% IAM/Iberomaurusians.
But they were a transitional population.

Coastal Berbers of northern Morocco, Algeria or Tunisia (such as Riffians, Kabyles etc as we get it) can easily be modeled as 50% of Anatolian Neolithic ancestry from the Cardial Ware settlers. They didn't disapear for sure, they progressively mixed with local Mesolithic North Africans (i.e Iberomaurusians/Capsians).
The berber populations further south generally have an increase of higher IAM/Mesolithic North African affinity. Narurally the further east you go Middle Eastern admixture is more important as closer to Egypt.
.
Since Coastal Berbers from the Atlas mountain range have higher Anatolian Neolithic ancestry than even Northern Europeans and some Central Europeans, I believe calling Neolithic Anatolian settlers of the Western Mediterranean 'European' is a very Euro-centric view of history and genetic history as usual. Calling them Iberian is also subjective : They were close and related to Iberian Neolithic farmers, could have easily moved down from the Iberian peninsula, but in fact the archeologic paper itself agrees that West Mediterranean Network of the Neolithic linked not only Iberia and North Africa, but Sardinia and Sicily too. And ultimately all came through Anatolia or Greece.
.
If you are talking about IAM (Early Neolithic Morocco) , who were basically the Neolithic transition of Iberomaurusians (i.e Capsians), they were closely related with Iberomaurisians, barely differentiating by lower than 10-20% ancestry from either an Anatolian source or a Levantine source. Their affinity to Anatolia could simply suggest an exchange of genes in between local Mesolithic North Africans and Cardial Ware Neolithic settlers. They had developped a partial pastoralist lifestyle (transhumance). Some archeologic reasearch indicates it was a local phenomenon.

.
Also the population decline happened very late: the paper afforded by the OP talks about what actually starts at the end of the Moroccan Bell Beaker period, so much after the Neoltihic. It is characterized by a high mobility making populations hard to trace. It more or less fit with all Berber populations from the Guanches to the west to the Kabyles to the east having traces of minor steppe ancestry from that period of time . The climate changement is probably what forced closely related Berber populations to move for better lands.

The Berbers were a (partial) continuation of the local North African hunter-gatherers, both genetically and culturally. Latest Mesolithic North Africans (Capsians) were already a cultural proto-Berber entity. They also had distant affinities with Natufian.
I am not sure what you are talking about but Berbers have barely much any genetic affinity to Natufians and Neolithic Levantines. Natufians were always terrible bad fit for modeling Mozabite Berbers (who lack any recent Levant/Middle Eastern admixture) , because Mozabite Berbers never had any real Natufian ancestry but rather a significant amount of distantly related Mesolithic North African ancestry, sure kind of related to Natufians but not identical.
The transition of Mesolithic to Neolithic Egypt also show archeologically a large amount of continuity too. So while a significant amount of Levantine Neolithic influenced and sprung into the Nile valley, the cultural continuity with previous inhabitants was obvious. In fact the Levantine Neolithic might not have reached much the Maghreb because it was busy, springing into Egypt with a heavy population density.
The Afroasiatic family is not a hoax but a loose classification. Berber, Chadic, Omotic, Egyptian and Semitic are related but loosely, distantly, with very little vocabulary cognates, at best the languages which have diverged very early by the Mesolithic such as Semitic, Berber and Cushitic have preserved closely related grammar and syntaxis. It does not necessarily mean a closer genetic clade. The Afroasiatic is a macro Family of divergent idiom masses and originated from Mesolithic North Africans such as Capsians, Iberomaurusians, Halfans and Mushabians. The Natufians of the Levant were culturally more related to Mesolithic North African populations and the recent Dzudzuana paper showed they had distinct ANA (Ancestral North African) ancestry in common with Iberomaurusian / Taforalt populations. It certainly suggest population exchange the two sides of the Sinai.

the ancient Berbers origins are based around Marrakesh ( southern Morocco ) and had no ethnic links with cartagian or later Roman occupation of coastal algeria and morocco. In fact algeria was a great wheat supply for Rome and they fortified ( build walls ) from preventing southern Tribes from reaching the coast, they first glimpse of Berber people in coastal north-africa appears with the Visigoth times and their ownership of North-Africa.

The berber-arab union was always stated as after the fall of the western Roman empire.

The Iberomaurusians appear to be proto-numidians while Fregal's paper states Anatolian-Europe -north African movements of peoples
 
I don't know... I think your main hypothesis is spot on (the more diverse and adaptable lifestyle of the pastoralists and hunter-gatherers prevailed over that of the intensive farmers), but I'm not sure the "Berber HG" survived while "EEF got extinct". Didn't that recent North African paper show Late Neolithic North Africans to have a minor but sizeable EEF-like, "Iberian" component? And don't modern Maghrebis also have some EEF? I'd think that the farmers declined due to climatic issues, but they did not get extinct, instead they mixed with the more successful pastoralists who were not exactly the same as the former HGs. Also, IIRC the non-"European-like" prevalent part of the genome of the Neolithic North Africans was related to, but quite different from the genetic makeup of the earlier, Paleolithic Iberomaurusians, lacking much of the Hadza-like Subsaharan component that existed in the latter. Therefore, I find it hard to believe that the Berbers who eventually survived and prevailed were exactly a continuation of the former hunter-gatherers. They seem to have become much more Levantine/Natufian-like and less Subsaharan-like, probably owing to an expansion of either the "intensive hunter-gatherers" of Natufian culture (who were pretty advanced for their time) or of the early pastoralists through North Africa - and then mixing with the local hunter-gatherers, who probably did not speak Berber IMO, as Berber is still more related to Semitic and Egyptian than to other Afro-Asiatic subfamilies, and not that divergent (Proto-Afro-Asiatic itself is estimated to have been spoken at most around 15,000 years ago).

I would be surprised if Berbers didn't have any EEF at all.
But after going through

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...hic_of_Morocco

Climate Induced Mobility and the Missing Middle Neolithic of Morocco.

my impression was that much of the Cardial Ware in Morocco faded away when the Green Sahara dissapeared, which must also have affected climate in the Atlas Mts.

I see my impression confirmed in the PCA of Fregel 2017.
The bulk of EEF which was there in the KEB samples has dissapeared.

It would be interesting to have pré-Islam Berber samples.

In the Laziridis 2018 paper you can see that Natufian is modelled as Dzudzuana + Taforalt, so the expansion was from Taforalt into the Levant and not the other way around.
The IAM in Fregel 2017 are Capsian, a E-L19 → M81 population that arrived in Algeria/Tunisia 10 ka and probably merged with the Iberomaurusian population.

1200px-Iberomaurisiense-Capsiense.png
 
Coastal Berbers of northern Morocco, Algeria or Tunisia (such as Riffians, Kabyles etc as we get it) can easily be modeled as 50% of Anatolian Neolithic ancestry from the Cardial Ware settlers. They didn't disapear for sure, they progressively mixed with local Mesolithic North Africans (i.e Iberomaurusians/Capsians).
The berber populations further south generally have an increase of higher IAM/Mesolithic North African affinity. Narurally the further east you go Middle Eastern admixture is more important as closer to Egypt.

where did you get these figures?
if the coastal area got 50 % EEF from Cardial ware, it is surprising that it didn't spread inland during these 7500 years since arrival
 
where did you get these figures?
if the coastal area got 50 % EEF from Cardial ware, it is surprising that it didn't spread inland during these 7500 years since arrival

Bicicleur, can it be that "Shortly" after that cardial influx, it started the 5.9 kiloyear event and the beginning of the violent Aeolian erosion one would see then fleeing back into Europe, right?
 
Bicicleur, can it be that "Shortly" after that cardial influx, it started the 5.9 kiloyear event and the beginning of the violent Aeolian erosion one would see then fleeing back into Europe, right?

that's what the paper is about
it certainly had an influence
 
the ancient Berbers origins are based around Marrakesh ( southern Morocco ) and had no ethnic links with cartagian or later Roman occupation of coastal algeria and morocco. In fact algeria was a great wheat supply for Rome and they fortified ( build walls ) from preventing southern Tribes from reaching the coast, they first glimpse of Berber people in coastal north-africa appears with the Visigoth times and their ownership of North-Africa.
The berber-arab union was always stated as after the fall of the western Roman empire.
The Iberomaurusians appear to be proto-numidians while Fregal's paper states Anatolian-Europe -north African movements of peoples
That's alot of crap I don't really have time to argue about. You don't make sense, Numidians of coastal Algeria even before Romans arrival left thousands of libyc inscriptions showing a very clear Berber language.
 
where did you get these figures?
if the coastal area got 50 % EEF from Cardial ware, it is surprising that it didn't spread inland during these 7500 years since arrival
Unlike you I guess, we have seen plenty of Eurogenes, Dodecad, MDLK, and Davidski nMonte model modeling coastal Berbers (Riffians, Kabyles etc) as 50% Anatolian Neolithic/Peloponese Neolithic (Cardial Ware).
Also, just the academic Neolithic Morocco paper provide a charter with ancient (IAM, Levant_N etc) and modern samples where Mozabites are modeled as 36% Anatolian Neolithic/KEB.
So inland Berbers don't lack Cardial Ware ancestry as you presumed, they just have higher Mesolithic North African ancestry but even the furthest south populations such as Tuaregs and Fulanis still have alot of so-called 'EEF' ancestry and their mtDNA lineages include many H1, U5, V lineages from the 'EEF' box.
Eitherway, you can't claim stuff without proving them, I don't understand where you get that willing will to see EEF/Cardial Ware disappear out from North Africa. It does't seem to be a conclusion from out of sources from the genetics of Berbers but more like a random will of yours out of nowhere?
 
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I would be surprised if Berbers didn't have any EEF at all.
But after going through
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...hic_of_Morocco
Climate Induced Mobility and the Missing Middle Neolithic of Morocco.
my impression was that much of the Cardial Ware in Morocco faded away when the Green Sahara dissapeared, which must also have affected climate in the Atlas Mts.
This deals about populations becoming more mobile and hard to trace in the soil by the end of the Moroccan Bell Beaker period. This is alot of time after the Cardial Ware period and populations had already mixed to a large extent. Besides, populations didn't vanish but populations became mobile and moved, to other places the coast of North Africa is large and we know Berbers with alot of EEF/Cardial Ware ancestry reached the Canary Islands (Guanches) during that time or slightly after.
The bulk of EEF which was there in the KEB samples has dissapeared.
Damn. A whole population vanished completely because bicicleur has decided so. They left 50% of their ancestry in coastal Berbers and Guanches but they still have disapeared. I guess Berbers have mixed with Romans, Germanic Vandals, Greeks, Phoenicians, French, Crusaders to fill up their DNA with Anatolian Neolithic ancestry. Guanches are a bizarry, that don't fit well with the t*roll theory.
It would be interesting to have pré-Islam Berber samples.
We do. We have Guanches from the Canary Islands, and they are very close to Berbers and have slightly more EEF, are bit more shifted towards Anatolian Neolithic and have
less SSA and Middle Eastern influences. Guanches also have similar mtDNa as continental Berbers with many promising EEF lineages such as H1, H3, V, U5b.
In the Laziridis 2018 paper you can see that Natufian is modelled as Dzudzuana + Taforalt, so the expansion was from Taforalt into the Levant and not the other way around.
The IAM in Fregel 2017 are Capsian, a E-L19 → M81 population that arrived in Algeria/Tunisia 10 ka and probably merged with the Iberomaurusian population.
1200px-Iberomaurisiense-Capsiense.png
Wow. Untill now, this is the only thing you got almost, partially right.
 
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Also, just the academic Neolithic Morocco paper provide a charter with ancient (IAM, Levant_N etc) and modern samples where Mozabites are modeled as 36% Anatolian Neolithic/KEB.

this is what the paper says

IAM
samples cluster with Mozabites, whereas the southern Spain Neolithic samples are
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projected close to southern European populations, including Italians, Tuscans and
Sardinians. As already suspected from the mtDNA and Y-chromosome data, KEB samples
do not cluster with IAM and are placed in an intermediate position between IAM and
TOR.
 
[Ibero]maurusians are not "Berber HG", that's anachronistic. And the EEF didn't go extinct, they are actually the biggest source of ancestry for Berbers, even more than what you call "Berber HG".
What is interesting though is the early neolithization of the Maghreb seem to have had only a minimal impact (20%) in terms geneflow as IAM is just a modified Taforalt. Only later we see a predominantly EEF (KEB) population, although we should take everything with a grain of salt because only a small part of NW Africa has been sampled (North Morocco).

yes, modern north africans are a mixture of berber and arab

Modern Maghrebis wouldn't cluster with 8th century Guanche sample if this was the case.

and on the PCA modern north african is a mixture of IAM and middle eastern

The PCA shows modern Maghrebis clustering between modern West Eurasians and IAM. This only means NW Africa became more Eurasian in the Holocene than it was it the Upper Paleolithic and Early Neolithic (which is already predominantly Eurasian). And modern Berbers (+ Guanches) also have some more divergent African ancestry (Green Sahara?) than what is found in Iberomaurusians, so the actual holocene Eurasian ancestry in moderns is actually even higher to account for the minor West-Central African shift.

Also, a small part of Berbers' EEF ancestry is most likely Beaker-related as the minor steppes ancestry in modern Berbers would have come with it.
 
[Ibero]maurusians are not "Berber HG", that's anachronistic. And the EEF didn't go extinct, they are actually the biggest source of ancestry for Berbers, even more than what you call "Berber HG".
What is interesting though is the early neolithization of the Maghreb seem to have had only a minimal impact (20%) in terms geneflow as IAM is just a modified Taforalt. Only later we see a predominantly EEF (KEB) population, although we should take everything with a grain of salt because only a small part of NW Africa has been sampled (North Morocco).

any idea then when this KEB population arrived?

it is not sure whether the IAM samples postdate or antedate the arrival of EN at the site
some do, some don't
yet in PCA and in K admix they cluster

The PCA shows modern Maghrebis clustering between modern West Eurasians and IAM.
more specific between IAM and Middle Eastern
 

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