Map of Indo-European Languages (by Phonology)

This is a historical fact that in the first millennium BC Celtic people lived in Galatia in the north of Semitic lands, and as I mentioned in this thread: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/37188-Discovery-of-Statue-Menhirs-Celtic-Migrations archeological evidences show that they even lived in more eastern lands in the southwest of Caspian sea in 2nd millennium BC.

MouthlessMenhir.jpg

Galatians didn't neighbor any Semitic people in antic Anatolia. And anthropormophic stelae like those are also found in Saudi Arabi date from the IV millenium BC, wich still have to be confirmed. All those statue probably have a same megalithic cultural origin, but linking it with any language is just speculation.
 
This is a historical fact that in the first millennium BC Celtic people lived in Galatia in the north of Semitic lands, and as I mentioned in this thread: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/37188-Discovery-of-Statue-Menhirs-Celtic-Migrations archeological evidences show that they even lived in more eastern lands in the southwest of Caspian sea in 2nd millennium BC.

MouthlessMenhir.jpg

Galatians in Anatolia were just a branch of Gauls and they were really latecomers there compared to all the evidence of Celtic culture and even language inscriptions in Celtic tongues in Western Europe before that.
 
Galatians didn't neighbor any Semitic people in antic Anatolia. And anthropormophic stelae like those are also found in Saudi Arabi date from the IV millenium BC, wich still have to be confirmed. All those statue probably have a same megalithic cultural origin, but linking it with any language is just speculation.
I believe all of the first so called Europeans came from the Steppes/Caucasus and Anatolia mainly West. Most of the so called ''European'' haplogroups are traced back to those regions, especially Armenia.
 
Galatians didn't neighbor any Semitic people in antic Anatolia. And anthropormophic stelae like those are also found in Saudi Arabi date from the IV millenium BC, wich still have to be confirmed. All those statue probably have a same megalithic cultural origin, but linking it with any language is just speculation.

Of course similar statues can be found everywhere but the more important point is the huge cultural similarities between Gilaki and Galeshi people and Celtic people, for example compare Gilaki Bal and Gaelic Beltane Midsummer festival, in both of them it marks the beginning of the pastoral summer season when the herds of livestock are driven out to the summer pastures and mountain grazing lands. Both people lit bonfires on mountains and hills and perform this festival almost in the same way. In both languages bal/bæl means "fire, balefire" which has a Celtic origin, cognate with Sanskrit भाल (bhāla, “splendour”), Ancient Greek φαλός (phalós, “white”) and Old Armenian բալ (bal, “fog”).
 
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Of course similar statues can be found everywhere but the more important point is the huge cultural similarities between Gilaki and Galeshi people and Celtic people, for example compare Gilaki Bal and Gaelic Beltane Midsummer festival, in both of them it marks the beginning of the pastoral summer season when the herds of livestock are driven out to the summer pastures and mountain grazing lands. Both people lit bonfires on mountains and hills and perform this festival almost in the same way. In both language bal/bæl means "fire, balefire" which has a Celtic origin, cognate with Sanskrit भाल (bhāla, “splendour”), Ancient Greek φαλός (phalós, “white”) and Old Armenian բալ (bal, “fog”).

Interesting.
 
About the land where Iranian statue menhirs have been discovered, I should mention that the name of Ardabil has probably a Celtic origin, it is the highest and coldest land in Iran and its meaning could be "high land/city" in Celtic (ard- "high" + baile "place, homestead, town, city"). The most famous person who was born in Ardabil is certainly Shah Ismail, the founder of the Safavid empire. As you read in Wikipedia, he had a fair complexion and red hair. And about red hair, we read "Redheads today are commonly associated with the Celtic nations and to a far lesser extent the Germanic peoples."

330px-Shah_Ismail_I.jpg
 
AFAIK Vennemann considered that Celtic languages were the ones deeply influenced by Semitic languages, and in fact he assumed that Semitic or a closely related Afro-Asiatic branch was spoken in Neolithic Europe and was replaced by Indo-European languages that would later give birth to Proto-Celtic. Not Germanic. Semitic loanwords in Germanic should not come as a surprise especially considering specialized words for objects that can be traded (e.g. hemp), as it is well known that IE languages and even PIE itself had MANY loanwords from Semitic languages and even from Sumerian, though they may have borrowed them indirectly via intermediary languages. That shouldn't come as a surprise when the Near Eastern civilizations were absolutely dominant in the Bronze Age and the ancestors of Proto-Germanic speakers most probably lived in Eastern or Southeastern Europe, reachable from Semitic sea and land trade routes. It is not just Germanic that has Semitic loanwords. The very example you gave *xanap- is also cognate to Greekkannabis, and it seems clear that it's just a cultural Wanderwort like computer and television in many languages nowadays.

As for evidence of the presence of Germanic in the north of Europe, the fact that its lexicon and syntax are much closer to Italic and Celtic than to Indo-Iranian, Armenian or other Near Eastern IE branches, as well as the fact that Uralic languages are full of Germanic loanwords (many of them archaic enough to be assumed to date to before the late Common Germanic/Proto-Germanic period) do attest the presence of Germanic in Northern Europe from a fairly early period.

Also, it is not just that there are evidences of Pre-Proto-Germanic in Northern Europe, it is also that there is just no strong archaeological and far less genetic evidence of any large migration from West Iran to Northern Europe and more specifically Scandinavia (where a late form of Proto-Germanic is really first attested) during the Iron Age to account for a supposed transformation from a previous IE branch to an "Iranian" Proto-Germanic. It is extremely unlikely that the partial ancestors of Germanic people would've lived for milennia in West Iran, yet they would've managed to remain very Bronze Age Steppe-like instead of mixing with the locals and acquiring much more Iranian Farmer, Levantine Farmer and Anatolian Farmer admixtures, changing their genetic makeup and therefore imparting a much more Near Eastern-like genetic impact to Northern Europe. Quite on the contrary, the Indo-European population of Northern Europe and Scandinavia in particular is the one that genetically looks more "Yamnaya-like" nowadays, with less heavy admixture with elements besides the usual EHG+CHG mix of the Bronze Age steppe. This would've been virtually impossible if they had come from the mixed Iranian+Levantine+Anatolian+Caucasian genetic landscape of Iran. They would've certainly brought Northern Europe closer to Southeastern European and especially to Near Eastern populations, whereas in fact Northern Europeans from Germanic countries are probably those most distant from Near Eastern peoples in PCA Charts, precisely because they missed much of the additional flows of Caucasian and Anatolian-like ancestry into Europe.

I don't say that Germanic is closer to Indo-Iranian or Armenian, as you see in my map it has preserved labialized velar consonant, so it is clearly closer to Italic, Celtic and other Centum languages, but the fact is that the oldest known Centum languages were spoken in the Middle East, so Germanic should be closer to the languages of this region, Indo-Iranian and Armenian are closer to Balto-Slavic languages and they were newcomers to the Middle East.

There are many archaeological evidences which show there was a migration from the west of Iran (modern Luristan) to the north of Europe in the late Nordic Bronze Age (between 800 BC and 500 BC), just look at the works of Scandinavian archaeologists, for example look at the English summary of this book by Birger Nerman: The Late Bronze Age: http://samla.raa.se/xmlui/handle/raa/1709

"During the late Bronze Age a fairly rapid development takes place, both quantitatively and qualitatively, in the Mälar-Hjälmar district and in Gotland; the finds are still most numerous, however, in the soutliernmost parts of the Scandinavian cultural area. Each of the first-mentioned localities creates its own special types, but at the same time there is evidence of a combined Central Sweden-Gotland cultural area. ... Influences are observable from Luristan in west Persia, e. g. the bronze bowl in Fig. 21 from Västmanland from per. 5 (cf. Fig. 22)."

You can read more about it in the works of Dr. T. J. Arne who says this large amount of influences is impossible without a migration from Luristan: http://samla.raa.se/xmlui/handle/raa/1044

BronzeArne.jpg


These similarties have been mentioned by several other archaeologists and artists too, for example English artist Lawrence Gowing in A History of art, says "In Sweden and Denmark human and animal figures appear as knife-handles and heads of pins, or as scepter-ornaments, some of them having an odd likeness to the bronzes from Luristan (Persia)".
 
I believe all of the first so called Europeans came from the Steppes/Caucasus and Anatolia mainly West. Most of the so called ''European'' haplogroups are traced back to those regions, especially Armenia.
what do you mean by so called? People of Europe came wave by wave during millennials. haplogroup i was the first one, and then g, and after a time indoeuropeans. Europe was inhabited by other hominids as well
 
Of course similar statues can be found everywhere but the more important point is the huge cultural similarities between Gilaki and Galeshi people and Celtic people, for example compare Gilaki Bal and Gaelic Beltane Midsummer festival, in both of them it marks the beginning of the pastoral summer season when the herds of livestock are driven out to the summer pastures and mountain grazing lands. Both people lit bonfires on mountains and hills and perform this festival almost in the same way. In both languages bal/bæl means "fire, balefire" which has a Celtic origin, cognate with Sanskrit भाल (bhāla, “splendour”), Ancient Greek φαλός (phalós, “white”) and Old Armenian բալ (bal, “fog”).

Well, it's vastly more likely that these Celtic, Sanskrit, Iranic, Ancient Greek and Old Armenian words came from the same PIE source, as well as some of the old customs (AFAIK, for instance litting bonfires on hills was a really common thing during Midsummer Festivals in many parts of Europe, not just specifically Celtic ones). But in any case even if it is a direct Celtic loanword into the Iranian Gilaki language, it is very well known that Celts did live in Anatolia... but that happened since ~2300 years ago, and shared words and customs comparing with the traditional culture of modern populations do not mean that the connection is necessarily (or even plausibly) as old as the first IE dialects that split from PIE. There was a huge time since that early post-PIE period for these customs, words and beliefs to spread, especially when you consider that there are documented Iron Age migrations of Celts to the northern Near East.
 
I don't say that Germanic is closer to Indo-Iranian or Armenian, as you see in my map it has preserved labialized velar consonant, so it is clearly closer to Italic, Celtic and other Centum languages, but the fact is that the oldest known Centum languages were spoken in the Middle East, so Germanic should be closer to the languages of this region, Indo-Iranian and Armenian are closer to Balto-Slavic languages and they were newcomers to the Middle East.

No, Germanic should not necessarily be closer to Middle Eastern centum languages (I assume you're talking of Anatolian IE), and definitely not for that reason. Linguistically centum languages are nothing but the IE daughter languages that did not undergo an innovative sound change in the /k/ and /g/ consonants. They're the "default" given by PIE, so they do not necessarily form any linguistic clade, because the way their /k/ and /g/ works is just an archaism they inherited from PIE. Anatolian and Germanic being both centum just mean that they did not experience any sound change in those particular consonants. The two branches couldn't be any more different in many other phonological and grammatical aspects. It is satem languages that pausibly form a clade descending from the same early IE dialect or at least a Sprachbud of IE early dialects/languages, because it is they that do share a common innovation that probably had to start somewhere and spread to dialects/languages nearby.
 
You can read more about it in the works of Dr. T. J. Arne who says this large amount of influences is impossible without a migration from Luristan: http://samla.raa.se/xmlui/handle/raa/1044

So what do you think happened to the genetics of these influential immigrants who supposedly Germanized Scandinavia? Because certainly there is no genetic evidence of a strong pull in Scandinavian people toward any Iranian population. Not in haplogroups, and certainly not in autosomal admixtures. In fact, if anything they're less shifted to Iranian people than most other Europeans. Or did those Luristani immigrants literally disappear in Iran and in Luristan itself, so their genetic imprint cannot be noticed at all there, making it really hard to pinpoint the genetic impact of a West Iranian population on Scandinavia? If that were so, how did those Pre-Germanic West Iranians manage to simply remain genetically isolated for such a long time from their neighboring Middle Eastern populations that they'd have preserved a sort of very European-like and more specifically North European-like genetic structure even though they were surrounded by heavy doses of Iran_Neolithic + Levant_Neolithic + Anatolian_Neolithic (and even a minor South Asian, ANI-like component, in Iran) in differing mixes, everywhere? I find it really hard to reconcile your hypothesis with what we know about the genetics of modern and ancient populations. We have ancient autosomal DNA from really early Germanic people, from the beginning of the Common Era, and they do not seem to be much different if at all from modern Germanic North Europeans - and certainly not like relatively recent descendants of Iranians (even if mixed with local Europeans).
 
Well, it's vastly more likely that these Celtic, Sanskrit, Iranic, Ancient Greek and Old Armenian words came from the same PIE source, as well as some of the old customs (AFAIK, for instance litting bonfires on hills was a really common thing during Midsummer Festivals in many parts of Europe, not just specifically Celtic ones). But in any case even if it is a direct Celtic loanword into the Iranian Gilaki language, it is very well known that Celts did live in Anatolia... but that happened since ~2300 years ago, and shared words and customs comparing with the traditional culture of modern populations do not mean that the connection is necessarily (or even plausibly) as old as the first IE dialects that split from PIE. There was a huge time since that early post-PIE period for these customs, words and beliefs to spread, especially when you consider that there are documented Iron Age migrations of Celts to the northern Near East.
The region between the Caspian and Black seas in the south of Caucasus has been always known as Chaldia/Khaldia/Kaltia/Galtia, its other names such as Alba and Iberia have also Celtic origin, in the Celtic mythohistorical sources we see this region has been called as one of the main lands of Celtic people too (alongside European Alba/Albion and Iberia), we still see traces of Celtic culture in this region, we have archaeological evidences too, linguists talk about the connections between Celtic and Semitic people who lived in the same region, I don't know why we should deny these evidences!!
 
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No, Germanic should not necessarily be closer to Middle Eastern centum languages (I assume you're talking of Anatolian IE), and definitely not for that reason. Linguistically centum languages are nothing but the IE daughter languages that did not undergo an innovative sound change in the /k/ and /g/ consonants. They're the "default" given by PIE, so they do not necessarily form any linguistic clade, because the way their /k/ and /g/ works is just an archaism they inherited from PIE. Anatolian and Germanic being both centum just mean that they did not experience any sound change in those particular consonants. The two branches couldn't be any more different in many other phonological and grammatical aspects. It is satem languages that pausibly form a clade descending from the same early IE dialect or at least a Sprachbud of IE early dialects/languages, because it is they that do share a common innovation that probably had to start somewhere and spread to dialects/languages nearby.

The fact is opposite to what you said, in the Satem languages there was no innovative sound change in the /k/ and /g/ consonants but the fact is that unlike Centum languages, they preserved the original PIE palatovelar consonants (*ḱ, *ǵ, *ǵʰ) and then completed the process of palatalization, but in the Centum languages these sounds were lost, it seems to be clear that these languages had a common origin.
 
So what do you think happened to the genetics of these influential immigrants who supposedly Germanized Scandinavia? Because certainly there is no genetic evidence of a strong pull in Scandinavian people toward any Iranian population. Not in haplogroups, and certainly not in autosomal admixtures. In fact, if anything they're less shifted to Iranian people than most other Europeans. Or did those Luristani immigrants literally disappear in Iran and in Luristan itself, so their genetic imprint cannot be noticed at all there, making it really hard to pinpoint the genetic impact of a West Iranian population on Scandinavia? If that were so, how did those Pre-Germanic West Iranians manage to simply remain genetically isolated for such a long time from their neighboring Middle Eastern populations that they'd have preserved a sort of very European-like and more specifically North European-like genetic structure even though they were surrounded by heavy doses of Iran_Neolithic + Levant_Neolithic + Anatolian_Neolithic (and even a minor South Asian, ANI-like component, in Iran) in differing mixes, everywhere? I find it really hard to reconcile your hypothesis with what we know about the genetics of modern and ancient populations. We have ancient autosomal DNA from really early Germanic people, from the beginning of the Common Era, and they do not seem to be much different if at all from modern Germanic North Europeans - and certainly not like relatively recent descendants of Iranians (even if mixed with local Europeans).
Look at this map:
Coon%20Light_Eyes_Map.JPG

That blue area in the west of Iran is the ancient land of Gutians (Goths) who were mentioned as namrum (blonde people) in the Akkadian sources from the third Millennium BC, ancient Sumerians who lived in the east of Gutium called themselves uŋ-saŋ-gi-ga ("the black-headed people).
One of the famous people who was born in Gotvand in the west of Iran is Mohammad-Ali Ramin:
thumb2_30703.jpg

They are certainly a minority in Iran but there could be a different situation in the ancient times before the mass migrations of different Iranian, Turkic, Semitic and Mongol tribes to Iran. Of course in the same time Elamites in the south and Hurro-Urartian tribes in the north differed from them too.

What do you think about the existence of haplogroup I in the west of Iran?
 
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According to this map, haplogroup I relates to the Germanic culture and R1b to the Celtic culture:
Haplogroup_F_Y-DNA.png
 
Look at this map:
Coon%20Light_Eyes_Map.JPG

That blue area in the west of Iran is the ancient land of Gutians (Goths) who were mentioned as namrum (blonde people) in the Akkadian sources from the third Millennium BC, ancient Sumerians who lived in the east of Gutium called themselves uŋ-saŋ-gi-ga ("the black-headed people).
One of the famous people who was born in Gotvand in the west of Iran is Mohammad-Ali Ramin:
thumb2_30703.jpg

They are certainly a minority in Iran but there could be a different situation in the ancient times before the mass migrations of different Iranian, Turkic, Semitic and Mongol tribes to Iran. Of course in the same time Elamites in the south and Hurro-Urartian tribes in the north differed from them too.
What do you think about the existence of haplogroup I in the west of Iran?
we do not know who was in Iran in the bronze-age or even before .............the Persians and their farsi language and Zorastrian religion arrived circa 1000BC from tajikstan/turkmenistan lands.......the hurrians are kura-axes culture and below them are the mitanni, both not in Iran
 
According to this map, haplogroup I relates to the Germanic culture and R1b to the Celtic culture:
Haplogroup_F_Y-DNA.png

put J, T and G where R1b is
push R1b slightly north
push I slightly north
put H where G is and now it makes sense

Levant and below should be only E at this time
 
wow. Curys, you're just as crazy as that turk who thought the viking runestones were written in proto-turkic. Your delusions would be entertaining, if it all wasn't a bit sad too.
 
we do not know who was in Iran in the bronze-age or even before .............the Persians and their farsi language and Zorastrian religion arrived circa 1000BC from tajikstan/turkmenistan lands.......the hurrians are kura-axes culture and below them are the mitanni, both not in Iran

Ancient Mesopotamian sources have mentioned their names and we actually know some things about them, there were Guti, Almani, Suedi and Padani tribes in the west of Iran.

Primitive Civilizations: Or, Outlines of the History of Ownership in Archaic Communities, by Edith Jemima Simcox: https://books.google.com/books?id=_rfT9NQWku8C

Page 265:
Suedin.jpg


PadanG.jpg
 

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