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Thread: The Population History of Northeastern Siberia

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    So you consider Skhul and Qafzeh as part of our own phylogenetic group as modern humans?
    no, morphological Skhul and Qafzeh cluster with Irhoud and Aterian

    but I consider 125 ka Jebel Faya as an extinct branch of AMH (but maybe ancestral to Basal Eurasian)
    and I consider Nubian Complex as our ancestors (Y-DNA A1 https://www.yfull.com/tree/A1/ )

    Nubian Complex originated in NE Africa some 160 ka, but it was present in Arabia since at least 106 ka

    Neanderthals were present in southern Central Asia 87 ka, in the Zagros Mts 80 ka and later also in the Levant

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    no, morphological Skhul and Qafzeh cluster with Irhoud and Aterian

    but I consider 125 ka Jebel Faya as an extinct branch of AMH (but maybe ancestral to Basal Eurasian)
    and I consider Nubian Complex as our ancestors (Y-DNA A1 https://www.yfull.com/tree/A1/ )

    Nubian Complex originated in NE Africa some 160 ka, but it was present in Arabia since at least 106 ka

    Neanderthals were present in southern Central Asia 87 ka, in the Zagros Mts 80 ka and later also in the Levant
    So your hypothesis is that human expansion only happened after Neanderthal and Denisova was weakened by something?

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    So your hypothesis is that human expansion only happened after Neanderthal and Denisova was weakened by something?
    before 50 ka human expansion happened in areas not inhabited by Neanderthals

    ca 50 ka some humans invented blade tools
    these humans replaced the Neanderthals, the Denisovans and many other humans who were still using flake tools and Levallois technique
    they also lived in areas no humans or Neanderthals never had survived before

    it all happened in 10.000 years time

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    they also lived in areas no humans or Neanderthals never had survived before
    Can you elaborate on this point? What areas, where?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    before 50 ka human expansion happened in areas not inhabited by Neanderthals

    ca 50 ka some humans invented blade tools
    these humans replaced the Neanderthals, the Denisovans and many other humans who were still using flake tools and Levallois technique
    they also lived in areas no humans or Neanderthals never had survived before

    it all happened in 10.000 years time
    As well as spear throwers. And that may have been the reason AMH started to gain territory at the expense of Neanderthals.

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2009/07/23/did-spear-chucking-humans-kill-neanderthals/


    EDIT: An insight in Neanderthal hunting:
    https://arstechnica.com/science/2018...rthals-hunted/

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    As well as spear throwers. And that may have been the reason AMH started to gain territory at the expense of Neanderthals.

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2009/07/23/did-spear-chucking-humans-kill-neanderthals/

    EDIT: An insight in Neanderthal hunting:
    https://arstechnica.com/science/2018...rthals-hunted/


    Is it really? Spear throwers are actually a late items found in archeological remains, in case for Europe, it only appears in the transition Solutrean-Magdalenian. How would Spear throwers be used for killing Shanidar 3 wich is dated 50'000 - 46'000 BC, with both Aurignacians and Gravettians not knowing this technology?

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    I suspect spear throwers and their javelins were made like the following video shows, for thousands of years prior to any attachments, with fire-hardened points shaped out of the shaft and no fletching. There are many people making and using atlatls on Youtube. This guy's works as well as most. These would leave no archeological trace.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrlr02YDr5A

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Can you elaborate on this point? What areas, where?
    Siberia and Mongolia
    also in Europe, they went further up north than Neanderthal
    they had better clothing and were more mobile
    during summertime they followed their prey on their trek north

    in India they replaced other AMH who didn't have blade tools

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    Quote Originally Posted by elghund View Post
    I suspect spear throwers and their javelins were made like the following video shows, for thousands of years prior to any attachments, with fire-hardened points shaped out of the shaft and no fletching. There are many people making and using atlatls on Youtube. This guy's works as well as most. These would leave no archeological trace.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrlr02YDr5A
    nice video

    and I agree, for archeology it is hard to detect spear throwers

    I don't think they existed 40 ka
    but they probably existed in Clovis culture, 13 ka America and in Solutrean, 24 ka Europe

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    The AETA tribe or Agta of Luzon PHILIPPINES are the only group of people that have ydna P*, P1* and the very rare P2 found all together along with significant levels of K2b1.
    Ydna P* is found in 28% of Aeta and 10.8% of the Timorese INDONESIA.

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    Interesting topic!

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    There is still a lack of lithic-industry frames of reference to understand the proto-amerindian cultures of beringia

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    Quote Originally Posted by 64logh View Post
    There is still a lack of lithic-industry frames of reference to understand the proto-amerindian cultures of beringia
    unfortunately hardly anybody is interested in this important topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Can you elaborate on this point? What areas, where?
    He doesn't know what he's talking about. Neanderthals were further north than homo sapiens and with Levallois tools. The Levalloisio-Mousterian toolkit was the most effective ever designed in the stone age.
    http://science.sciencemag.org/content/332/6031/841
    Levallois flake tools are present in the strata at which Mal'ta-Buret 1 (Malta boy) was found and also at Rivermouth Trench in British Columbia, Canada (Carlson & Bona)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Punish Them 911 View Post
    He doesn't know what he's talking about. Neanderthals were further north than homo sapiens and with Levallois tools. The Levalloisio-Mousterian toolkit was the most effective ever designed in the stone age.
    http://science.sciencemag.org/content/332/6031/841
    Levallois flake tools are present in the strata at which Mal'ta-Buret 1 (Malta boy) was found and also at Rivermouth Trench in British Columbia, Canada (Carlson & Bona)
    Regarding the neanderthal-Byzovaya claim: https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Arctic_Circle
    There is not enough evidence they were made by neanderthals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 64logh View Post
    Regarding the neanderthal-Byzovaya claim: https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Arctic_Circle
    There is not enough evidence they were made by neanderthals.
    Nice save.

    What when bots recognize the truth also. But, I suspect your government does not have that sort of bot yet.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Thats so cool!

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    Between 11 and 4 kya, AP were in turn largely replaced by another group of peoples with ancestry from East Asia, the "Neosiberians" from which many contemporary Siberians derive.



    The paper describes a "major population turnover in northeastern Siberia, with Neosiberians arriving from the south largely replacing AP", but where in the south did these Neosiberians originate from? There may be a clue in your more recent posts about studies of Jomon aDNA.

    The earliest known pottery in the world was found in south China. From 14,000 years ago cord-marked pottery became widespread from Thailand to Siberia (the lower Amur basin and Transbaikalia). The Jomon aDNA studies show that the Jomon people, who also had early cord-marked pottery, had genetic affinities with coastal east Asian populations from Taiwan to Siberia. I suggest a south to north coastal migration of pre-neolithic pottery making people from southern China to northeastern Siberia between 14,000 and 11,000 years ago, with substantial population replacement along the way. I look forward to further aDNA studies producing evidence that addresses this hypothesis.

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