R1b L23 Migration Map Hypothesis

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Wondering what people think about this:

The lines capped-off by green dots represent what I see as the most likely breeding ground for the Y DNA written nearest to that particular line - note that this is VERY rough, and the general area only should be considered (so, for example, my placing of Z2103 L277.1 should be further South). Black arrows represent Copper Age migrations, coloured arrows represent Bronze Age migrations. The question marks represent potential movements resulting in Anatolian and Tocharian branches respectively (I'm still not sure on the Anatolian branch at all: as to whether it came from Danubian Yamnaya at a very early date, or still earlier from the Caucasus). For simplicity, R1a was not included (which is why this is an L23 migration map...), yet it is clearly still important in understanding IE migrations - it seems to have had a resurgence in the late Steppe, and even later on (from around 2000 BC) seems to be associated with satemisation. In this model, Western IE was carried by Corded Ware folk at an earlier date than this satemisation. Western IE would only develop with the U152 and U106 branches, which had time to blend with the existing Corded Ware substratum that definitely never advanced further West than Central Europe. In the event that DF27 and L21 carried IE languages to their respective destinations, this would have been lost with further blending with the indigenes, just as L151 (or just its Central European branches) would have lost its tongue from blending with Corded Ware women.

In all scenarios, the origin of IE languages lies either in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe or the Caucasus, and in all scenarios L23 (and M269 just before it) is associated with the spread of metallurgy.

Of note is the potential for IE languages to not originate with Z2103/L23 at all, but to be that of the native R1a folk, and merely adopted by a L23 metallurgical/pastoral ruling elite.

Opinions?

 

[Joey37]

This is good. Very close to my theory, especially the last statement.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

This is good. Very close to my theory, especially the last statement.

I don't actually believe the last statement aha, but thanks anyway. I was just saying it isn't so outlandish, and something to consider. Especially this - what language did the Corded Ware folk speak? I'll reference the below map again, and remind that this is 2000 BC (so AFTER the Beaker folk invaded Atlantic Europe)! Notice an absence of IE from that particular region (and instead matching virtually perfectly with the spread of the CWC in Europe, with the exception of the Balkanic languages like Greek, which can be explained by Danubian Yamnaya)?

 

[didier]

This is good. Very close to my theory, especially the last statement.

Hello folks,

I have been absent of forums in english for a while but I still had a blog , mainly in french, at chezdidier. I had to migrate this blog , keeping this articles, as www,entregen.org

I am glad to see Maciamo is on the same line I fight for on R1b : they developped as early metallurgists. I posted that all those copper mines that developped in what is now Bulgaria around 4600 BC (several sites) had R1b-M269 metal smith, meaning R1b didn't invade this places but, a little like bantu later at iron age in Africa, they formed communities of specialized workers inside already existing cultures.
Il posted that I believe those R1b-M269 working in Bulgaria (recent name) evolved to R1b-L23 making a split with those R1b-M269 still in the north Caspian area.
The next split was between those L23 that migrated East and became R1b=Z2103 and those that migrated West (still as spotted groups) and these became R1b-L51.
The link with R1a was at the time of maykop between a culture of mixed farmers already living in cities and knowing about wheel and the plough tracted by cattle and R1b metal workers, on one side (I posted a J2b map from maciamo) and a R1a side with horses. The early yamna had R1b meatl smith and probably also R1b priest as metal work may have made them s an elite. In late yamna the R1b elite was eliminated and only R1a people spread to India.
I am interested in updated L51* maps and L23 (x Z2103) maps.

Didier

 

[Eblö]

L23 didnt migrate from the south-caucasus to the north but most likely the other way around,no R1b or steppe admix found in Maykop or anywhere nearby.The only R1b-Z2103 south of the caucasus is from Iran before Yamna,but as of now its very likely that it was misdated.

 

[Silesian]

Video shows different cultures of Europe dancing---- Luckily we have some some R1b found in Europe --Italy for example has modern day R1b samples--as well as a sample dated to 14000+/-YBP years -- roughly the same age as Afro-Natufian like culture---unbeleivable![Maybe located by modern day Trento?]

Ripari Villabruna is a small rock shelter in northern Italy with neolithic burial remains. It contains several Cro-Magnon burials, with bodies and grave goods dated to 14,000 years BP. The site has added greatly to the understanding of the neolithic development of medical^[1] and religious practises in early human communities.^[2][3]

L23 didnt migrate from the south-caucasus to the north but most likely the other way around,no R1b or steppe admix found in Maykop or anywhere nearby.The only R1b-Z2103 south of the caucasus is from Iran before Yamna,but as of now its very likely that it was misdated.

Bad luck.