Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

Johane Derite said:
But, Messapians are Illyrians...

Majority of Archeologists agree Messapians were Illyrian colonists. Your entire aim to find a proxy population that has all the qualities of Illyrians so that Albanians can descend from them without being Illyrians is hilarious. And the only way you are clinging to this non-argument is through Matzinger.

I've read Matzingers actual latest paper and he admits himself that the Illyrian material he is working with is almost non-existent and that of the material which they do actually have the most of (Messapian) Albanian resembles it most.

Building your entire career and argument on Onomastics is honestly an idiotic decision, and DNA is already showing how idiotic these people were in making such sweeping conclusions. For years i heard your type over and over again parrot the tired out old line of "no maritime vocabulary in albanian" ("Albanians couldn't have been on the adriatic") for which there are countless simple explanations such as it being specialized vocabulary which mainlanders didn't use, coastal illyrians being first to be romanized, while mainlanders surviving romanization, etc.

In one paper (Mathieson 2018) we got J2b2-L283 and Z2103 (which account for +60% of Albanian paternal ancestors) right on the croatian coast in royal tumuli and also an ancestral clade to Ev13. Y-dna samples that effectively place 95% of Albanians paternal ancestors on the Adriatic coast in Illyrian times.

Honestly, the more it unfolds the more and more the depth and depravity of Serb propaganda is revealed.
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Address the arguments in his papers then. Better submit a paper of your own.

What's the obsession with Serbs anyway, is there even a single Serbian in this thread? Are Matzinger & Schumacher Crypto-Serbs? Get a grip.
 
Milan.M said:
If Calabria is "Dardanian" toponym it is likely Thracian origin,the ending "bria" was found in Thracian toponyms.
Messembria, Poltymbria, Sēlymbria, Skedabria, etc.
Dardanians some claim them Thracian some Illyrian or a "mix".
For example According to Strabo, the Dardani were not part of Illyria,and they were divided into two sub-groups, the Galabri and the Thunaki

I have nothing if Albanians will claim origin of some Illyrian tribe,Illyrians proper for example or Thracian whatever which should be proven first, but to claim origin from entire geographical region of Illyricum is non sense as noted by linguists couple of languages have been spoken there.
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I never claimed that all of the roman territory of Illyricum couldn't have had maybe some celtic or italic like languages living in them. Venetic used to be called Illyrian and we know now that its an italic language that doesn't fit in with language of "Illyrians proper. But again, the material is almost non-existent.

Many of the names and titles that we have inherited also can have many flaws depending on whether ancient ethnographers had the knowledge of foreign languages to even distinguish different languages.

Of some things we can be sure. That "Albanoid" languages have been in southern europe since before Roman entry into balkans, in the regions of Epirus, Macedonia, Moesia, Apulia.

Eric Hamp believes that Albanian is just one surviving branch of a large Albanoid language family that used to cover the Balkans and central europe. John Trumper also subscribes to this theory to a point. This Albanoid language family could have been as diverse as the slavic family is now, comparing Czech to Bulgarian to Russian, etc.
 
Johane Derite said:
But, Messapians are Illyrians...

Majority of Archeologists agree Messapians were Illyrian colonists. Your entire aim to find a proxy population that has all the qualities of Illyrians so that Albanians can descend from them without being Illyrians is hilarious. And the only way you are clinging to this non-argument is through Matzinger.

I've read Matzingers actual latest paper and he admits himself that the Illyrian material he is working with is almost non-existent and that of the material which they do actually have the most of (Messapian) Albanian resembles it most.

Building your entire career and argument on Onomastics is honestly an idiotic decision, and DNA is already showing how idiotic these people were in making such sweeping conclusions. For years i heard your type over and over again parrot the tired out old line of "no maritime vocabulary in albanian" ("Albanians couldn't have been on the adriatic") for which there are countless simple explanations such as it being specialized vocabulary which mainlanders didn't use, coastal illyrians being first to be romanized, while mainlanders surviving romanization, etc.

In one paper (Mathieson 2018) we got J2b2-L283 and Z2103 (which account for +60% of Albanian paternal ancestors) right on the croatian coast in royal tumuli and also an ancestral clade to Ev13. Y-dna samples that effectively place 95% of Albanians paternal ancestors on the Adriatic coast in Illyrian times.

Honestly, the more it unfolds the more and more the depth and depravity of Serb propaganda is revealed.
Click to expand...
He never gets tired. It`s from years now ....
 
markod said:
Address the arguments in his papers then. Better submit a paper of your own. What's the obsession with Serbs anyway, is there even a single Serbian in this thread? Are Matzinger & Schumacher Crypto-Serbs? Get a grip.
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Some people already noticed a certain bias of Austrian linguists and historians toward Serbs. I don't know where it comes from but it certainly exists. Maybe it is due to historical relations, a bad consciousness regarding WWI, or just plain marxism...
 
Milan.M said:
If Calabria is "Dardanian" toponym it is likely Thracian origin,the ending "bria" was found in Thracian toponyms.
Messembria, Poltymbria, Sēlymbria, Skedabria, etc.
Dardanians some claim them Thracian some Illyrian or a "mix".
For example According to Strabo, the Dardani were not part of Illyria,and they were divided into two sub-groups, the Galabri and the Thunaki

I have nothing if Albanians will claim origin of some Illyrian tribe,Illyrians proper for example or Thracian whatever which should be proven first, but to claim origin from entire geographical region of Illyricum is non sense as noted by linguists couple of languages have been spoken there.
Click to expand...

That's true I spoke to a guy from Calabria who told me he had short olive coloured skin black hair types and tall blonde haired blue eyed types in his family. I assume the blonder taller types were Thracians. Thracians were in Italy too anyway
 
LABERIA said:
Start a separate thread and start to share what you consider science from your point of view.
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I don't need to as populations vary I speak of individuals not entire populations.

No such thing anyway apart from in Jews and Sub Saharan Africans.
 
Wonomyro said:
Some people already noticed a certain bias of Austrian linguists and historians toward Serbs. I don't know where it comes from but it certanly exists. Maybe it is due to historical relations, a bad consciousness regarding WWI, or just plain marxism...
Click to expand...

What about Vladimir Orel, author of the most widely used etymological dictionary of Albanian? Is he in bed with the Serbs too? Because he's strongly against the Illyrian hypothesis as well. The only proponents of which seem to be Albanians these days.
 
markod said:
What about Vladimir Sorel, author of the most widely used etymological dictionary of Albanian? Is he in bed with the Serbs too? Because he's strongly against the Illyrian hypothesis as well. The only proponents of which seem to be Albanians these days.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I am not familiar with Illyrian linguistics, but these Albanians here have strong arguments in favour to their Illyrian ancestry. If not their direct ancestors, these Dalmatian/Panonnian samples, they have presented to us, might have been some not far relatives of ancestors of Albanians.
 
Wonomyro said:
Megalithic Slavs...OMG!
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Megalithic is a time period where some South Slavs left and populated the Balkans this is what I said exactly.
 
Wonomyro said:
Sorry, I am not familiar with Illyrian linguistics, but these Albanians here have strong arguments in favour to their Illyrian ancestry. If not their direct ancestors, these Dalmatian/Panonnian samples, they have presented to us, might have been some, not far, relatives of the ancestors of Albanians.
Click to expand...

I'm sure no one would dispute that Albanians are largely descended from Bronze Age South-Eastern Europeans.
 
markod said:
What about Vladimir Orel, author of the most widely used etymological dictionary of Albanian? Is he in bed with the Serbs too? Because he's strongly against the Illyrian hypothesis as well. The only proponents of which seem to be Albanians these days.
Click to expand...

Well, there is useful stuff in Orels work, but if you actually read carefully his book you see that when it comes to this commenting on illyrian subject part its extremely forced and kind of even not his place to comment. He downplays the many separate Greco - Albanian isoglosses, he found minimal Celtic-Albanian isoglosses despite there being famous ones and basically over emphazises the Baltic isoglosses with Albanian.

He was a Russian, so even if there was no agenda (which honestly I don't feel when i read his unacademic opinions) by merely being born Russian and more exposed to slavic and baltic languages there is a parallax effect in what he will find. Linguists are not gods. We need Celtic specialists, Italic specialists, Albanian specialists, to all write their full blown book on Albanian also and then compare and contrast. Each one will find things they know from their specialization best.

The best linguists are the ones that stick to their job. The moment they start making historical claims without even basic historical awareness of the language they are studying, its not professional. A good linguist should find isoglosses, similarities, reconstructions, etc. They should not propose fantastic theories that don't match archeology, genetics, historical record.
 
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